What constitutes mashing?

[GrooveSlave]

What do you guys think the difference is between pushing a bigger gear to get stronger and "mashing" a big gear? Is it a function of cadence? If I maintain 80 rpm up a hill, is that a big gear?

I was just thinking about this on the bike this afternoon debating with myself whether I was mashing or not. Either way it was good!

 

[Catabolic_Jones]

Low cadence is certainly part of "mashing," but I have always thought of it as an effect of a powerful rider running a big gear. So he's going fast, is the point. I mean, a weak rider, running a light gear, with a low cadence is not "mashing" -- at least, not in my books.

Ullrich is the classic example. I mean, he's really flying, he's really charging up the hill, but you wouldn't know it from his cadence; it's that heavy gear, and all that power that makes a masher.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I think "mashing" is all about torque, although I am not prepared to define the line of demarcation. And, it would make sense that this line of demarcation is a function of one's power. IOW, Ullrich's FT may be 425-450W and another rider's FT may be half that. So, what is "mashing" for the rider with half of Ullrich's power? Surely it is not the same torque threshold as Ullrich. Is it half?

 

[GrooveSlave]

I knew that there would be no real definition and JU was definitely in my thoughts about this.

To me it seems like a function of effort and not really comparable between riders. Let's take spinning as an example. We all know that it's possible for one rider to be spinning the same gear as another rider is having to mash. (that's usually my problem). This means that the spinning rider is able to push that gear with little perceived effort.

As you get stronger and can make more power with the same intensity, you develop the ability to spin that gear you used to mash.

In the past I've avoided the feeling of pressure on my legs from a bigger gear and upped my cadence to maintain speed. This has worked to a point, but I know I'm weak when it comes to wind or hills. I usually get dropped unless I go really hard.

Last night I deliberately chose a harder gear and kept cadence about 80 and even less on some hills. I was trying not to blow up and just gain some leg strenght - almost like a weight workout. I ended up flying up some of the hills that used to really hurt with less perceived effort and equal or greater speed.

If I went too far overboard on the bigger gear, I got into the 50 rpm range and had to exert too much force to keep it going. In my mind, I went from pushing a big gear to mashing.

Man, this is like trying to describe the color blue!!

 

[frenk]

When talking about mashing everyone always says "Ullrich". But have you watched last year's tour?
He climbed constantly at at least 80 rpm, which is not mashing at all to me.
Mashing means 60 or less in my opinion, and anyway I don't understand how every amateur racer claims to climb at ultrahigh cadences ("me? not like ullrich!"), and then you look at their bikes and they have 39x23.
Now either they climb at 30km/h all the time (and I don't understand why I didn't see them at the giro last week), or they mash waaay more than der Jan.

 

[Spunout]

Mashing is doing it badly, looking like you're stomping on the pedals and swaying back and forth. This could be as high as 90 rpm.

I'd say it is a quality issue and not solely low cadence.

 

[dm69]

I had a rather pleasant experience with mashing yesterday in an uphill time trial. The hill is about 1.2km's long and dont worry its bloody steep, one of those hills that's impossible to cruise over. I usually take the hill at a high cadence and absolutely stuff myself at 90rpm in a 39-18 ??? dunno if thats right but I am usually going about 17km/h as hard as I can.

In yesty's TT I decided to use my 52-16&17 mainly just to gain strength as my training has switched from base to SE...I rode the hill at 20km/h and would have shattered my previous PB by atleast 15 seconds and my Hr had only reached 195 of 210 and my average was 185 of 210! pretty low in comparison.

Dont know what my cadence was but it seemed reasonably low and every stroke was tough but by the time I finished I knew could have gone harder and longer both in my legs and defintely my cardio. maybe I am a born "masher".

However I usually describe mashing as throwing the bike around uncontrollably and very erratic pedal strokes but in my TT everything worked, I could accelerate! I kept my stroke very smooth and it felt much more natural than sitting and spinning.

 

[GrooveSlave]

I had a rather pleasant experience with mashing yesterday in an uphill time trial. The hill is about 1.2km's long and dont worry its bloody steep, one of those hills that's impossible to cruise over. I usually take the hill at a high cadence and absolutely stuff myself at 90rpm in a 39-18 ??? dunno if thats right but I am usually going about 17km/h as hard as I can.

In yesty's TT I decided to use my 52-16&17 mainly just to gain strength as my training has switched from base to SE...I rode the hill at 20km/h and would have shattered my previous PB by atleast 15 seconds and my Hr had only reached 195 of 210 and my average was 185 of 210! pretty low in comparison.

This sounds exactly like my situation. I could have gone harder but would have blown up for sure in the bigger gear. But, less perceived effort got me up the hill faster.

As an aside, my legs are actually a bit sore the second day after. Normally I only feel a bit tired no matter how hard I go. I'll definately try this again. I think I'll devote at least a workout a week to it.

 

[Carrera]

Evidently he lowered his gearing deliberately over the last 2 years and I wonder if that has been the cause of his undoing. Two tours back Ullrich almost had Lance on the ropes in both climbs and time trials but the year after that he wasn't his old self. At the time Ullrich was giving Lance heaps of trouble he was indeed meshing pretty big gears and it seemed to work for him.
I sometimes push a hefty gear myself and my knees seem to hold out O.K. I had many cyclists stop and ask me why I'm climbing steep hills on the big chainring and many of them urged me to stop doing it since they pointed out my bike isn't designed to ascend at such an awkward chain angle and ratio. But I feel I get a lot more power with the big ring which just feels better for me.

When talking about mashing everyone always says "Ullrich". But have you watched last year's tour?
He climbed constantly at at least 80 rpm, which is not mashing at all to me.
Mashing means 60 or less in my opinion, and anyway I don't understand how every amateur racer claims to climb at ultrahigh cadences ("me? not like ullrich!"), and then you look at their bikes and they have 39x23.
Now either they climb at 30km/h all the time (and I don't understand why I didn't see them at the giro last week), or they mash waaay more than der Jan.

 

[Billsworld]

I knew that there would be no real definition and JU was definitely in my thoughts about this.

To me it seems like a function of effort and not really comparable between riders. Let's take spinning as an example. We all know that it's possible for one rider to be spinning the same gear as another rider is having to mash. (that's usually my problem). This means that the spinning rider is able to push that gear with little perceived effort.

As you get stronger and can make more power with the same intensity, you develop the ability to spin that gear you used to mash.

In the past I've avoided the feeling of pressure on my legs from a bigger gear and upped my cadence to maintain speed. This has worked to a point, but I know I'm weak when it comes to wind or hills. I usually get dropped unless I go really hard.

Last night I deliberately chose a harder gear and kept cadence about 80 and even less on some hills. I was trying not to blow up and just gain some leg strenght - almost like a weight workout. I ended up flying up some of the hills that used to really hurt with less perceived effort and equal or greater speed.

If I went too far overboard on the bigger gear, I got into the 50 rpm range and had to exert too much force to keep it going. In my mind, I went from pushing a big gear to mashing.

Man, this is like trying to describe the color blue!!

If your trying to build cycling specific strength for sprinting etc.. Keep the "mashing" to 100-300 meter efforts and you are working to get the gear from low rpm to high. You can use hills , gears , wind......for resistance. Other than a drill to build power , I would ride where it feels best.

 

[GrooveSlave]

If your trying to build cycling specific strength for sprinting etc.. Keep the "mashing" to 100-300 meter efforts and you are working to get the gear from low rpm to high. You can use hills , gears , wind......for resistance. Other than a drill to build power , I would ride where it feels best.

That's exactly what I did and will do again. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. That constitues a hill (100 - 300m) in Dallas.

My intent is to use this as a workout not an overall change in my riding style. I want to gain the ability to spin a bigger gear and thus improve my speed in all areas.

 

[OscarC]

IMHO, "mashing" is when you pedal in a "mashing" motion from the 12' oclock position to the 6' oclock position. The pedaling speed slowing approaching the 6' oclock position then speeding up again with the other leg at the 12' oclock position. More evident when standing out of the saddle going uphill. There might also be some side to side swaying while mashing. Almost like pedaling in half circles with brute force. Think of it as making mashed potatoes from scratch of course, not from a box. After the potatoe has been boiled, you exert more force and speed up at the top then when you get close to the bottom. Of course you don't have to be going uphill, it can be on the flat as well.
I would define pushing a big gear as a smooth, even pedaling speed in your 52 or 39 ring and whatever in the back depending on whether your going up hill, flat, or downhill, although crosschaining is not good for your chain, cassette, or rings. Pushing a big gear could also be pedalling up a long steep hill in the 39 ring and 19 or 21 in the back. Something that would be difficult for most. I would not call a 39 - 25,27 combination pushing a big gear in any uphill scenerio. That would just mean the hill is "fricken steep". In every case though, your cadence speedwill be slower. An 80 cadence to 85 going uphill I believe is a comfortable cadence for uphill. Consider Armstrong's cadence going uphill is 80-85, or faster when attacking. He doesn't mash. The 80 cadence and above uses your fast twitch muscle fibers. Mashing a big gear is a slower cadence like around 50-60. Kinda like lifting weights which builds muscle, leg strengh, and uses your slow twitch fibers.
Most non-cyclist that use a bicycle to commute or just ride every once in a while pedal in a mashing motion. Just my opinion.
If I wanted to train on my bike on any particular day and was working on leg strength that day, I would most definitley by mashing for short distances, like in intervals. just my opinions.

What do you guys think the difference is between pushing a bigger gear to get stronger and "mashing" a big gear? Is it a function of cadence? If I maintain 80 rpm up a hill, is that a big gear?

I was just thinking about this on the bike this afternoon debating with myself whether I was mashing or not. Either way it was good!

 

[dm69]

Evidently he lowered his gearing deliberately over the last 2 years and I wonder if that has been the cause of his undoing. Two tours back Ullrich almost had Lance on the ropes in both climbs and time trials but the year after that he wasn't his old self. At the time Ullrich was giving Lance heaps of trouble he was indeed meshing pretty big gears and it seemed to work for him.
I sometimes push a hefty gear myself and my knees seem to hold out O.K. I had many cyclists stop and ask me why I'm climbing steep hills on the big chainring and many of them urged me to stop doing it since they pointed out my bike isn't designed to ascend at such an awkward chain angle and ratio. But I feel I get a lot more power with the big ring which just feels better for me.

Just because it is in the big ring doesn't mean you are getting anymore mechanical advantage than if you are in your little ring and a lower rear cog! Seriously dont use the big chainring if you are in any smaller gear than a 17 and above.

Technically you are in the same gear in the 39-13 as you are in the 52-17 approximately. Mechanical advantage is about 3.1