What do U think of my coach's advice?

[jsirabella]

If you have been hanging around these boards as of late you know I have really started getting into my power meter for the last two months and started to do the increase threshold power which for me is now 250 ftp.

I have now done my second race since the power training...

It was a strange race as I did much better overall from my first especially my pacing but I did not stay with the pack as long as last week and was never in the front pulling. But funny I felt this was my strongest finish. Let me explain:

The winning rider finished at a little below 41 minutes the 5 laps, 17 miles. According to my math that was about 25 miles per hour average and my CP files says I did average a little over 21 miles per hour. Keep in mind I did this average with really no help from a pack. The pack was really large at the start and I pretty much was only with them for about 1 lap. I finished the last 4 with another guy who was just on my rear wheel the whole time. Funny thing though finished in the top half of the entire field because there was a big blow up on the first lap where about 1/3 or more of the riders wiped out when someone tried to sprint from the middle of the pack. He was not very smart.

It is that first lap that makes no sense to me...the way these riders are handling it. I will not be able to stay with them unless I just go nuts which will lead to an early blow up. The first lap I did average about 23 miles per hour and np of 283 and average watts at 238. I am riding at or above my threshold so until I get my ftp at 300 or more I will have trouble with this track and the software says it as it still rates me as untrained except in my 5 min and my ft right on the border. My max watts at any time is in the 500 range and I got to get that anerobic higher for atleast 1 minute to deal with the crazy start.

When I sent my CP file to the coach his comment was

John, you have to do more VO2 intervals to teach your body to deal with higher intensity in a short period and recover fast to able to deal with the tempo and intensity changesduring the races. You have no problem with the watts/kg, base on what I saw in your race file!

I feel that he is correct but I if I continue to focus on the aerobic end and get my ftp higher, the rest should fall into place and than focus on the anerobic numbers. I also feel that the 53 on this track is tough to spin above 110 on that track as it is decieving that there is quite a bit of incline but not sharp just constant and gradual and than gradual decline. I was thinking of switching out my 35 with something slightly bigger like a 42 or so and see how I would perform on the track.

Well guys what do you think and the advice?? Also as an FYI based upon that race it was a 2.9 which was an all time high since beginning power training.

-Js

 

[daveryanwyoming]

.... John, you have to do more VO2 intervals to teach your body to deal with higher intensity in a short period and recover fast to able to deal with the tempo and intensity changesduring the races. You have no problem with the watts/kg, base on what I saw in your race file!

He's right in terms of the short term goal of hanging in these races. I think I pointed this out a month or more ago. Ideally you would have worked last winter and early spring to build a big aerobic base and you'd be building the high end of your aerobic capabilities(VO2 Max) and your anaerobic tolerance on top of that base. But you started mid season so you're playing a catch up game to folks with a head start in training. Short term a VO2 Max and even L6(anaerobic tolerance) focus might help but long term you'll do better to build that aerobic base before jumping in to the short hard efforts.

I don't know anything about the course or how the peloton rode that first fast lap, but your AP and NP were quite different during that period. IOW you had a VI of ~1.19 which is pretty high for a road race(not too high for a crit with a lot of sharp turns). Did the course have a lot of sharp bends or short sprinter's hills or is it possible you were riding near the rear and suffered from a lot of accordian effect and excessive braking followed by jumps to cover the gaps? That sort of stuff really drives up your NP and makes you burn a lot of matches just to hang on. If so, riding a bit further forward and getting comfortable enough with pack riding to stay off your brakes and find smooth riders to follow will pay off big time.

...I feel that he is correct but I if I continue to focus on the aerobic end and get my ftp higher, the rest should fall into place and than focus on the anerobic numbers.

Raising your FTP is still your best bet but once you've brought that up a bit you'll want to work on the higher systems like VO2 Max and Anaerobic Tolerance. Again it depends on how much longer your road season lasts out there. Road racing is wrapped up for the season here so I'm back to winter base building which won't include any L5 or L6 work for several months. If you have a bunch more races to do you might work in a day a week of 3 to 5 minute L5 intervals but frankly I'd still suggest riding out this season for experience and focusing on laying a solid groundwork for next spring.

...Also as an FYI based upon that race it was a 2.9 which was an all time high since beginning power training.

Sorry, 2.9 what? 'don't know what you're referring to here is it W/Kg AP for the entire race?

You're probably getting tired of hearing it, but you're paying big dues with each of these races. We've all done it and it can be frustrating but there aren't a lot of shortcuts to gaining the sort of experience you're getting in these races. Keep working the fitness side of the equation during training, but see if you can work on the pack riding skills as well. I suspect you're not riding as efficiently as possible either through positioning in the field, excessive braking, poor gear choices or other things and although we can talk about it a lot there's no substitute for riding with better/faster riders for learning those skills. If you haven't done so, read Thomas Prehn's book: http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Tactics-Cyclists-Thomas-Prehn/dp/1931382301 there's a lot of good advice in there, but reading it won't be enough you've got to practice what he talks about in group rides and races.

Keep up the good work,
Dave

 

[jsirabella]

Hi Dave,

I agree that my coach is correct for the short term also but he seems to be telling me that my power output is enough to deal with these cat 5 races. Do you agree? I do not really agree with it and lean more told your assessment that I need to focus on the long term and building the ftp. The race season here is pretty much coming to a close but I am in catch up and want to catch in as many as I can before it really does close down.

As for the race course, it is the same course I did last week where I performed very well in the first two laps and even pulled. The course is described as a road race but most riders call it a crit. It is a strange hybrid where you do not have any steep hills or any steep descents but you are constantly either ascending or descending during the race. The one big hill is long and deceptive where you keep thinking it is over but still has a little more to go. I am not sure if I would call the turns sharp but they can be. The race starts with that hill and that is where you are battling for position and can easily get blown off the pack. Because this is not my local course I am just starting to really get a feel for it now.

You are probably correct about not using the right gear and braking too much but my goal this time was pacing and not using the brakes. My pacing was better and I did not use the brakes like the last time. I still feel I did not ride in the drops enough and not enough control on the turns. I am thinking of practicing this course next saturday before the race! I am finding now that the key for control to me is holding the handlebars tight with my hands but stay loose on the arms. I find I go faster when I hold the bars tighter and feel more control yet I need to stay loose in the arms.

I am really hoping that these races will get me to ride better in packs as doing it in the park is difficult as it is really just a hammerfest. I would like to ride in a more cohesive pack that actually would work together but I feel the races can help me with that.

The 2.9 does refer to AP/Weigth as the CP software shows you for the ride. I will be ordwering the book right away but like you said it is hard unless you find packs to ride with.

There are more races next week and I will be doing atleast one of them. There is a race on Sat a little further away but only 10 miles long(??) which they are really calling a crit. The other two races are one in my home field (central park) or also on sunday another race in prospect park (my usual place) but a new twist with eight laps...a bit longer (9 miles longer).

I am not sure which to do but leaning towards the prospect park 8 lap race as this seems to be my race and track to conquer.

I started the 250 increase threshold hunter download course and honestly finding a litttle easy for the first week but sure it will increase in toughness over the next 7 weeks.

On a side note what would a L5 or L6 workout be for me with a ftp of 250?

-Js

He's right in terms of the short term goal of hanging in these races. I think I pointed this out a month or more ago. Ideally you would have worked last winter and early spring to build a big aerobic base and you'd be building the high end of your aerobic capabilities(VO2 Max) and your anaerobic tolerance on top of that base. But you started mid season so you're playing a catch up game to folks with a head start in training. Short term a VO2 Max and even L6(anaerobic tolerance) focus might help but long term you'll do better to build that aerobic base before jumping in to the short hard efforts.

I don't know anything about the course or how the peloton rode that first fast lap, but your AP and NP were quite different during that period. IOW you had a VI of ~1.19 which is pretty high for a road race(not too high for a crit with a lot of sharp turns). Did the course have a lot of sharp bends or short sprinter's hills or is it possible you were riding near the rear and suffered from a lot of accordian effect and excessive braking followed by jumps to cover the gaps? That sort of stuff really drives up your NP and makes you burn a lot of matches just to hang on. If so, riding a bit further forward and getting comfortable enough with pack riding to stay off your brakes and find smooth riders to follow will pay off big time.
[/size]Raising your FTP is still your best bet but once you've brought that up a bit you'll want to work on the higher systems like VO2 Max and Anaerobic Tolerance. Again it depends on how much longer your road season lasts out there. Road racing is wrapped up for the season here so I'm back to winter base building which won't include any L5 or L6 work for several months. If you have a bunch more races to do you might work in a day a week of 3 to 5 minute L5 intervals but frankly I'd still suggest riding out this season for experience and focusing on laying a solid groundwork for next spring.
Sorry, 2.9 what? 'don't know what you're referring to here is it W/Kg AP for the entire race?

You're probably getting tired of hearing it, but you're paying big dues with each of these races. We've all done it and it can be frustrating but there aren't a lot of shortcuts to gaining the sort of experience you're getting in these races. Keep working the fitness side of the equation during training, but see if you can work on the pack riding skills as well. I suspect you're not riding as efficiently as possible either through positioning in the field, excessive braking, poor gear choices or other things and although we can talk about it a lot there's no substitute for riding with better/faster riders for learning those skills. If you haven't done so, read Thomas Prehn's book: http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Tactics-Cyclists-Thomas-Prehn/dp/1931382301 there's a lot of good advice in there, but reading it won't be enough you've got to practice what he talks about in group rides and races.

Keep up the good work,
Dave

 

[Alex Simmons]

You are downloading training programmes from Training Peaks.
So I'm a little confused - what does your coach do?

In any case, you should discuss your concerns with your coach and have him explain how to best work on meeting your goals.

Nothing wrong with seeking the opinions of others here but we don't have the detail that your coach has (or should have) about you.

The race tactics mentioned are pretty common for shorter road races/crits in lower divisions - lots of early attacks and high pace before everyone calms down. Unfortunately there's no substitute for condition to meet the demands thrown at you. I know with race craft I can get away with not being as fit but ultimately it makes racing life tough!

 

[jsirabella]

Hi Alex,

Like in business, the same can be said in life, "it all comes down to timing and being in the right place at the right time".

I admit I feel a little guilty about what I am doing but the real short version comes down to the coach being away right before he gave me a power meter and dave and the other folks here putting me on a new course.

When he comes back I am sure we will get on some kind of track but I know his style and lifestyle, he will be busy alot. Right now I am experimenting and want to see what works best for me. I am thinking with his schedule, a combination of the workouts downloaded with his advice and fine tuning may be the key. The other part like you say...other opinions can not hurt. Right now the opinions have been really good so why fight with something that is working.

I will keep experimenting until I find what works...maybe one day I can use one of you guys as my coach.

It seems you hit it on the head with the way the race is and I agree I rather think long term. Just makes the short term a little harder...

-Js

You are downloading training programmes from Training Peaks.
So I'm a little confused - what does your coach do?

In any case, you should discuss your concerns with your coach and have him explain how to best work on meeting your goals.

Nothing wrong with seeking the opinions of others here but we don't have the detail that your coach has (or should have) about you.

The race tactics mentioned are pretty common for shorter road races/crits in lower divisions - lots of early attacks and high pace before everyone calms down. Unfortunately there's no substitute for condition to meet the demands thrown at you. I know with race craft I can get away with not being as fit but ultimately it makes racing life tough!

 

[dm69]

It appears your coach is right. Vo2 max power and how you recover from it are almost always going to be more important than FTP.

Listen to your coach...You are wasting his time if your following some guy on the internet over him. Your coach will still probably happily take your money however.

 

[Roadie_scum]

It appears your coach is right. Vo2 max power and how you recover from it are almost always going to be more important than FTP.

Except in road racing and mountain biking. Apart from that, spot on. If your event is maxing a VO2 test.

 

[dm69]

Except in road racing and mountain biking. Apart from that, spot on. If your event is maxing a VO2 test.

sarcasm? lol. Where do you race? Do you ever accelerate in your races or is there speed limit on how quick your allowed to go?

Ive never been dropped when going at a FTP power unless its up a rediculously long climb...maybe that means I have a relatively strong FTP compared to my vo2.

Shorter duration power has almost always determined the races I ride in.

 

[acoggan]

It appears your coach is right. Vo2 max power and how you recover from it are almost always going to be more important than FTP.

VO2max sets the upper limit to sustainable power output, but the fraction of VO2max that can be utilized for any period of time can vary significantly between individuals. Moreover, the rate of recovery following high intensity exercise is related to muscular metabolic fitness, not to VO2max per se. It is because of these irrefutable facts that LT is a better predictor of performance in endurance sports than is VO2max.

 

[acoggan]

sarcasm? lol. Where do you race? Do you ever accelerate in your races or is there speed limit on how quick your allowed to go?

The rate at which you can accelerate is dependent upon your neuromuscular power, not your VO2max. For example, when I was your age I had a VO2max of >80 mL/min/kg, but my ability to accelerate was abysmal (and it still is).

Ive never been dropped when going at a FTP power unless its up a rediculously long climb...maybe that means I have a relatively strong FTP compared to my vo2.

Shorter duration power has almost always determined the races I ride in.

Sounds to me as if the races you compete in either aren't very long, or they aren't very hard (or both).

 

[Eden]

I'm going to give you a few tips that have nothing to do with your power meter....
The race sounds like a short circuit/modified crit - you should probably be riding in your drops the entire time - its just safer that way if you are in the pack where you should be. In the drops you'll be more stable, and if you are on the tops you run the risk of hooking handlebars with someone else - nasty! Plus you should always, always corner in your drops - no excuses.

Short races, and especially beginner races always have surges - learn to deal with them or you'll never stay with the pack. I know very strong riders, who can kick my scrawny butt around a TT course, that have a very hard time staying with the pack, mainly because they can't react to the surges and they are afraid of mixing into the pack.

You may be able to hurt more than you think you can. Crits (and it sounds like this race) usually go really hard for the first 10 or 15 minutes and then settle in. If you can make it past that first hard bit, then you get a rest and you stay in. If you find you still blow up even after the pace settles a bit, still try to stay in for the first part of the race. Just when you feel like you are dopping off and you can't stay in any longer - stand up, 10 hard pedal strokes and see if you can stay on - it will hurt, but don't let that make you back off. Do it over and over again and you'll hopefully find that eventually you won't blow up or that you're staying in more and more before you do. I do think what your coach said is spot on - improve your ability to recover and you'll do much better. A couple of minutes anaerobic doesn't sound like much to me.... In a crit I often see 5 - 10 min or more in/above my zone 5 (I still train with HR) that usually result from the intial speed, prime laps and the ramp up to the finish.

I am making a guess that if you are uncomfortable cornering at speed you may not spend much time in the middle of the pack. Learn to be comfortable in the pack - not on the back, not on the front, but in the pack. You'll find that its much easier and you'll get sucked right up that hill at a speed you didn't know you could do. You'll spend less time yo-yoing too, which eats up lots of energy. This will make a big difference to you and its a skill that you can't train by yourself to do. It only really comes with racing unless you can ride in a pack outside of a race, which at least around here you can't - pacelineing helps but is still different.

Be sure you have had enough to eat before the race (preferably 2 to 3 hours before or you may puke!), make sure you are properly hydrated too. If you are having endurance issues you may be running out of ready energy before the race is over....

 

[jsirabella]

Thank you all for above for your responses.

I do feel I need to go harder in that first 10-15 minutes. That is what I did two weeks ago and it worked very well for me. The reason two weeks ago why I was blown off the pack was not a blow up in terms of endurance but really more of a reaction to the way I handled the turn, the other riders reacted with yells and I just turned off. I did finish the race but never recovered to the pack. I am still not comfortable in cornering as much as I should be.

This week it was an issue of just not giving enough on the initial hill. I needed to really give more in the first 5-10 minutes. Other issues include stuff like this is not a course I am used to yet while alot of these guys live by it or have been racing it all year. Also as I race more and more I notice my comfort level getting better with just being there at that time and ready to race. I feel a routine building...

I do believe that this year is really just more building and learning but I have to try to win. This is why I still will focus on the building of ftp with the downloaded workout and hoping the races I do this year get me more confidence in the pack. Eden I wanted to thank you for all this advice I am going to use it next week. I believe you and Dave kind of got me pegged in terms of issues like cornering and such.

The workouts I am doing now I can see are starting to do more in the threshold area as tomorrow looks tough and I am looking foward to it. I can see that it will get into the anerobic and VO2 areas later. When my coach gets back I am going to tell him what I want to do as far as training with watts.

I use the term coach as in respect to him as he represents his country for gods sake at races in europe but in terms of the traditional idea of an organized club with workouts and rides not really more just email and spreadsheets. He is too busy and more like a trainer so I feel this combination is going to work well. He was hoping the team he started would kind of take a life of its own and organize themselves.

But I feel a grrove building, it would just be nice to have someone else to fight the battle with in the trenches and not on the computer I think i may have found someone last week though.

-Js

I'm going to give you a few tips that have nothing to do with your power meter....
The race sounds like a short circuit/modified crit - you should probably be riding in your drops the entire time - its just safer that way if you are in the pack where you should be. In the drops you'll be more stable, and if you are on the tops you run the risk of hooking handlebars with someone else - nasty! Plus you should always, always corner in your drops - no excuses.

Short races, and especially beginner races always have surges - learn to deal with them or you'll never stay with the pack. I know very strong riders, who can kick my scrawny butt around a TT course, that have a very hard time staying with the pack, mainly because they can't react to the surges and they are afraid of mixing into the pack.

You may be able to hurt more than you think you can. Crits (and it sounds like this race) usually go really hard for the first 10 or 15 minutes and then settle in. If you can make it past that first hard bit, then you get a rest and you stay in. If you find you still blow up even after the pace settles a bit, still try to stay in for the first part of the race. Just when you feel like you are dopping off and you can't stay in any longer - stand up, 10 hard pedal strokes and see if you can stay on - it will hurt, but don't let that make you back off. Do it over and over again and you'll hopefully find that eventually you won't blow up or that you're staying in more and more before you do. I do think what your coach said is spot on - improve your ability to recover and you'll do much better. A couple of minutes anaerobic doesn't sound like much to me.... In a crit I often see 5 - 10 min or more in/above my zone 5 (I still train with HR) that usually result from the intial speed, prime laps and the ramp up to the finish.

I am making a guess that if you are uncomfortable cornering at speed you may not spend much time in the middle of the pack. Learn to be comfortable in the pack - not on the back, not on the front, but in the pack. You'll find that its much easier and you'll get sucked right up that hill at a speed you didn't know you could do. You'll spend less time yo-yoing too, which eats up lots of energy. This will make a big difference to you and its a skill that you can't train by yourself to do. It only really comes with racing unless you can ride in a pack outside of a race, which at least around here you can't - pacelineing helps but is still different.

Be sure you have had enough to eat before the race (preferably 2 to 3 hours before or you may puke!), make sure you are properly hydrated too. If you are having endurance issues you may be running out of ready energy before the race is over....

 

[dm69]

Sounds to me as if the races you compete in either aren't very long, or they aren't very hard (or both).

Yer your probably right. Amazing how you came to that correct conclusion over the net.

By "accelerate" I specifically meant 1-5 minute efforts (sorry for the confusion, not sprinting which is something different again). eg. jumping across a break, hanging in there when someone puts you in the "gutter", short steep hills etc, big attacks in the last few km's of a race...list goes on.

To me these 1-5 minute efforts that get repeated during races seem to fit into the Vo2 max duration whatever that means (you might call it L5, Zone 6...). Especially in short criteriums where the pace is On and Off for most of the race, Imo it has more to do with 1.) being able to put out high vo2 power and 2.) Recover really quickly.

maybe Over the duration of an hour or more these efforts all become one bigger effort and turn into an FTP effort? Is that what your trying to say?

Ftp would no doubt come in handy in nearly every race over 4 minutes especially boring long hcp's or "fun" tt's. But to me shorter duration power has always been the big factor in deciding races...the races I ride in do not have an FTP power limit. I doubt I have ever been dropped when riding at or below FTP.

Thx 4 a reply if it comes

 

[dm69]

In relation to the OP having a higher FTP WILL be the biggest help, no doubt. If her FTP is very high then the bursts of acceleration you face in a race wont seem all that bad anyway.

The short term solution would be a block of vo2 work as the coach prescribed as the season is almost coming to an end wherever jsirabella lives. After the season ends the biggest thing jsirabella would need to focus on is building a big aerobic engine then capping it off with vo2 work towards the start of 08 season. Unless you can get to a velodrome over the summer and do some track work.

Road season is morphing into track season for me at the moment...gotta love OZ.

 

[acoggan]

Yer your probably right. Amazing how you came to that correct conclusion over the net.

Yes, amazing, isn't it? ;-)

The statement is based on my 30+ y of racing experience, which says to me that if your races are being decided by the ability to accelerate, then they must either be very short (e.g., racing on the track, where the decision to chase or not chase a wheel must be made in a split-second), or there not very hard (e.g., your typical cat. 4 criterium, where the hammer never stays down very long, such that final placings are often decided by somebody's jump).

By "accelerate" I specifically meant 1-5 minute efforts

Oh, so you didn't mean the ability to accelerate after all...

eg. jumping across a break, hanging in there when someone puts you in the "gutter", short steep hills etc, big attacks in the last few km's of a race...list goes on.

To me these 1-5 minute efforts that get repeated during races seem to fit into the Vo2 max duration whatever that means (you might call it L5, Zone 6...). Especially in short criteriums where the pace is On and Off for most of the race, Imo it has more to do with 1.) being able to put out high vo2 power and 2.) Recover really quickly.

But your opinion is inconsistent with the known physiology. Yeah, having a high VO2max but inadequate LT might (or might not, since you still have to have high muscular metabolic fitness to exercise at/near VO2max for very long) allow somebody to get in one good 'dig', but they wouldn't be able to recover from such an effort quickly enough to do it again. Again, recovery under such circumstances is a function of the same muscular properties that account for a high LT (e.g., lots of mitochondria), not those accounting for a high VO2max (e.g., a large stroke volume).

maybe Over the duration of an hour or more these efforts all become one bigger effort and turn into an FTP effort? Is that what your trying to say?

That's part of it, but there's also the "repeatability" aspect...or why my nickname amongst the guys I raced against back on the East Coast was "The Energizer Bunny".

Ftp would no doubt come in handy in nearly every race over 4 minutes especially boring long hcp's or "fun" tt's. But to me shorter duration power has always been the big factor in deciding races...the races I ride in do not have an FTP power limit. I doubt I have ever been dropped when riding at or below FTP.

I doubt it as well...but that doesn't mean that your functional threshold power isn't a crucial determinant of your performance ability.

 

[jsirabella]

Your advice is the same as eveyone else and is what I am working upon. There really is only a couple weeks of races left to the season in NYC and the funny thing is the weather is better now than during the race season. In anycase my idea is to do the races to learn some pack/race techniques, see how well I perform with or without the pack for the whole race and gather data both from the race results and the power meter.

To be honest I know I will find it more fun when I win or hang in till the end of the race but currently I am having too much fun now. My coach is back and we spoke yesterday and while he will not say it I get a sense he is not a fan of the power meter and just wanted to sell it....He says he will adjust my schedule to talk in watts instead of sprint up this hill 10 times at max effort or something else I really can not judge my performance by.

-Js

Lets see what happens...race in CP this weekend anyway.

In relation to the OP having a higher FTP WILL be the biggest help, no doubt. If her FTP is very high then the bursts of acceleration you face in a race wont seem all that bad anyway.

The short term solution would be a block of vo2 work as the coach prescribed as the season is almost coming to an end wherever jsirabella lives. After the season ends the biggest thing jsirabella would need to focus on is building a big aerobic engine then capping it off with vo2 work towards the start of 08 season. Unless you can get to a velodrome over the summer and do some track work.

Road season is morphing into track season for me at the moment...gotta love OZ.

 

[Urkiola2]

If you have been hanging around these boards as of late you know I have really started getting into my power meter for the last two months and started to do the increase threshold power which for me is now 250 ftp.

I have now done my second race since the power training...

It was a strange race as I did much better overall from my first especially my pacing but I did not stay with the pack as long as last week and was never in the front pulling. But funny I felt this was my strongest finish. Let me explain:

The winning rider finished at a little below 41 minutes the 5 laps, 17 miles. According to my math that was about 25 miles per hour average and my CP files says I did average a little over 21 miles per hour. Keep in mind I did this average with really no help from a pack. The pack was really large at the start and I pretty much was only with them for about 1 lap. I finished the last 4 with another guy who was just on my rear wheel the whole time. Funny thing though finished in the top half of the entire field because there was a big blow up on the first lap where about 1/3 or more of the riders wiped out when someone tried to sprint from the middle of the pack. He was not very smart.

It is that first lap that makes no sense to me...the way these riders are handling it. I will not be able to stay with them unless I just go nuts which will lead to an early blow up. The first lap I did average about 23 miles per hour and np of 283 and average watts at 238. I am riding at or above my threshold so until I get my ftp at 300 or more I will have trouble with this track and the software says it as it still rates me as untrained except in my 5 min and my ft right on the border. My max watts at any time is in the 500 range and I got to get that anerobic higher for atleast 1 minute to deal with the crazy start.

When I sent my CP file to the coach his comment was

John, you have to do more VO2 intervals to teach your body to deal with higher intensity in a short period and recover fast to able to deal with the tempo and intensity changesduring the races. You have no problem with the watts/kg, base on what I saw in your race file!

I feel that he is correct but I if I continue to focus on the aerobic end and get my ftp higher, the rest should fall into place and than focus on the anerobic numbers. I also feel that the 53 on this track is tough to spin above 110 on that track as it is decieving that there is quite a bit of incline but not sharp just constant and gradual and than gradual decline. I was thinking of switching out my 35 with something slightly bigger like a 42 or so and see how I would perform on the track.

Well guys what do you think and the advice?? Also as an FYI based upon that race it was a 2.9 which was an all time high since beginning power training.

-Js

Hello Jsirabella,

I haven´t been to this forum in more than 2 years or so....it was in my list of favorites and just entered to check it out.
I have seen your question. I have been working as a medical advisor and physiologist for several pro tour teams as well as a cyclist myself for many years and would like to give you some advice.

1st of all the terms "anaerobic" and "aerobic" are misused today and should not be used since there is no proven state where the body turns from an aerobic sate to an anaerobic state. If there is a change in the body it is a change in substrate utilisation from fat to carbohydrate (CHO). The higher the effort the higher the muscle glucose utilisation and therefore the more lactate will be produced. Lactate is not just the dead end product of anaerobic glycolysis but it is also a very important regulator for intermediate metabolism (although this could take several pages to talk about). I will try to make myself understandable. Lactate is greately dependable on glucolytic (glucose) flux. Therefore, the more glucose utilisation the more lactate is produced. Hence, the important part that you and even Contador need is to oxidize ("washout") that lactate at a faster rate. For that you need to improve your lactate oxidation capacity.

After this small introduction, I will tell you that training exclusively by watts will not fullfill your metabolic needs for improvement. You say that your Power threshold is 250W...There is no such a power threshold, believe me. Actually the word threshold is very subjective since your "power threshold" is not the same for 5 min, than for 15 than for 2h. So that term is very subjective especially when we talk about watts, where there is not much relationship with the metabolic events occuring overtime.

Your numbers should be good for your coach for a given time, but in that race you talked about, in the 1st lap you probably went over your "power threshold". That pretty much means that in that "acceleration" or high pace the peloton put on for the 1st lap, your glycogenolysis (utilisation of glucose) rate was very high and therefore your lactate production. Since your mechanisms to "wash out" that lactate are probably not very well developed you could not recover towards the next effort.

That is where you have to work: on improving the ability to oxidize lactate instead of improving the power per se. You can improve your power 50watts for a 2 minute period but that does not mean that you have improved your ability to oxidize lactate. It could only mean neuromuscular improvement more than a metabolic improvement.

I would talk about this to your coach. And again, as Coggan said Lactate is a more precise parameter. Lactate is extremely important to diagnose and predict performance as well as metabolic status on a cyclist.

I hope it helped.

Cheers.

 

[jsirabella]

Hello,

Thank you for the advice as it seems very scientific and your background is impressive but let me ask the next obvious question.

How do you become better at improving the ability to oxidize lactate?

-Js

Hello Jsirabella,

I haven´t been to this forum in more than 2 years or so....it was in my list of favorites and just entered to check it out.
I have seen your question. I have been working as a medical advisor and physiologist for several pro tour teams as well as a cyclist myself for many years and would like to give you some advice.

1st of all the terms "anaerobic" and "aerobic" are misused today and should not be used since there is no proven state where the body turns from an aerobic sate to an anaerobic state. If there is a change in the body it is a change in substrate utilisation from fat to carbohydrate (CHO). The higher the effort the higher the muscle glucose utilisation and therefore the more lactate will be produced. Lactate is not just the dead end product of anaerobic glycolysis but it is also a very important regulator for intermediate metabolism (although this could take several pages to talk about). I will try to make myself understandable. Lactate is greately dependable on glucolytic (glucose) flux. Therefore, the more glucose utilisation the more lactate is produced. Hence, the important part that you and even Contador need is to oxidize ("washout") that lactate at a faster rate. For that you need to improve your lactate oxidation capacity.

After this small introduction, I will tell you that training exclusively by watts will not fullfill your metabolic needs for improvement. You say that your Power threshold is 250W...There is no such a power threshold, believe me. Actually the word threshold is very subjective since your "power threshold" is not the same for 5 min, than for 15 than for 2h. So that term is very subjective especially when we talk about watts, where there is not much relationship with the metabolic events occuring overtime.

Your numbers should be good for your coach for a given time, but in that race you talked about, in the 1st lap you probably went over your "power threshold". That pretty much means that in that "acceleration" or high pace the peloton put on for the 1st lap, your glycogenolysis (utilisation of glucose) rate was very high and therefore your lactate production. Since your mechanisms to "wash out" that lactate are probably not very well developed you could not recover towards the next effort.

That is where you have to work: on improving the ability to oxidize lactate instead of improving the power per se. You can improve your power 50watts for a 2 minute period but that does not mean that you have improved your ability to oxidize lactate. It could only mean neuromuscular improvement more than a metabolic improvement.

I would talk about this to your coach. And again, as Coggan said Lactate is a more precise parameter. Lactate is extremely important to diagnose and predict performance as well as metabolic status on a cyclist.

I hope it helped.

Cheers.

 

[Roadie_scum]

After this small introduction, I will tell you that training exclusively by watts will not fullfill your metabolic needs for improvement.

What on earth do you mean?

You say that your Power threshold is 250W...There is no such a power threshold, believe me. Actually the word threshold is very subjective since your "power threshold" is not the same for 5 min, than for 15 than for 2h. So that term is very subjective especially when we talk about watts, where there is not much relationship with the metabolic events occuring overtime.

On this forum and in many (most?) other contexts, threshold (functional threshold power) refers to the maximal steady state power that an athlete could hold for one hour. This could also be called 60MP or 60 minute mean maximal power.

If you want to model differences between say, 5 and 15 minute power, the monod model is useful.

 

[Urkiola2]

What on earth do you mean?



On this forum and in many (most?) other contexts, threshold (functional threshold power) refers to the maximal steady state power that an athlete could hold for one hour. This could also be called 60MP or 60 minute mean maximal power.

If you want to model differences between say, 5 and 15 minute power, the monod model is useful.

Has the UCI or American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) dictated that the "threshold" has to be for one hour??. Does it really HAVE to be one hour?. Why many people have a 15 min test to get their "power threshold"....for 1h??..

What if the race or TT is more than 1h??. Where is your threshold then?. What if the race or TT is less than 1H??. Where is your threshold then?. What if the last climb going up Alpe D´huez is less than 1h???. Where is your threshold then?.

One thing is what an article can say or an author can think which in terms of "power threshold" there is still not evidence of its existance in terms of METABOLISM and a different thing is the "real thing" and the "battle field". I have worked with many world class cyclists in the real race situation and my personal conclusion is that "power threshold" for an hour does not really happen in the "battle field" with top pros and probably won´t not either with the rest of categories.

Cheers.