What Ftp Does A 170 Lb Man Need To Do A 10 Hour Double Century?



LivingInThePast said:
How does the 'old Davis DC course' compare with this year's model?
It may be a bit quicker but not much more than 1/2hr quicker. The biggest factor on this ride is the weather. If it's blessed with a cool 70something degree day then you can pound the pedals harder than the somewhat often Ovenfest. I like the heat but going up Resurrection at 120 miles when the asphalt is getting sticky and the temps long passed 100F is grim. It'll also mean you'll need to stop more often for water.

Sure you no longer have Cobb Mtn or the crapper lower chiles road - but you also don't have the ace descent off Cobb and you do have the 4 or 5 miles of gravel. The reroute via Knoxville road has a few short sharp climbs.

The first section out of Davis that now heads south to Dixon is probably a few minutes quicker due to nicer roads - but it also means I need to spend an hour in Garmin Connect plotting the course for my Garmin 810 turn by turn :p
 
LivingInThePast said:
BrianMacDonald: So 210-220 range means I need an FTP of 293 to be in the 'endurance' zone if I was doing the entire 200 miles solo. I'm currently at at an FTP of 271 and I'm skeptical I'll hit 293 by then. Anyone have any sense of the tradeoffs between drafting vs 9000 ft of climbing + gravel roads in this calculus? My FTP of 271 puts me in the 'Tempo' zone which I can't sustain riding solo, up hills, and over gravel but will drafting make up the entire difference?

Swampy: I'd like to enjoy the ride but to me a large part of the enjoyment comes from not being in the saddle over 10 hours. My neck and butt hurt too much to enjoy it past that point so I'm really using this as a go-no-go decision. If I have to be on the course longer than that I'll probably pass.
That sounds about right to me. The group I have done these rides with includes a few pretty strong riders who do a lot of time at the front and I would wager those riders are close to that FTP, maybe even a little higher.
 
FTP is a whole lot different than what you can put out after 7 or 8 hours. The best I ever did solo was around 10:30 on a Imperial Double that had over 10,000 feet climbing. First 100 with 6,000 feet climbing in just 4.5 hours but 100 degree afternoon heat killed my output. Did 313 kM in 9 hours with a group. I am older now so no chance to break 10 hours. For me, I needed cooler temperatures. I can still do a not too hilly double in 12 hours now and my FTP is around 275 watts on a normal road bike with normal kit. If I got all time trialed up with a skinsuit, bars, and fast wheels....maybe 11:35 with not so much hills. Guess I am saying you have no/little chance on a hilly Double.

10,000 feet of climbing over 200 miles in under 10 hours? Solo? Probably 330-350W out of a 70-75Kg body. They would have to climb at their max, descend like the devil and then do the flats with around 250 W doing around 23 mph. No stops other than to grab bottles. 10 hours on a flat double with a groups....easier by far. Putting that kind of power down for 10 hours is special.
 
Weatherby said:
FTP is a whole lot different than what you can put out after 7 or 8 hours. The best I ever did solo was around 10:30 on a Imperial Double that had over 10,000 feet climbing. First 100 with 6,000 feet climbing in just 4.5 hours but 100 degree afternoon heat killed my output. Did 313 kM in 9 hours with a group. I am older now so no chance to break 10 hours. For me, I needed cooler temperatures. I can still do a not too hilly double in 12 hours now and my FTP is around 275 watts on a normal road bike with normal kit. If I got all time trialed up with a skinsuit, bars, and fast wheels....maybe 11:35 with not so much hills. Guess I am saying you have no/little chance on a hilly Double.

10,000 feet of climbing over 200 miles in under 10 hours? Solo? Probably 330-350W out of a 70-75Kg body. They would have to climb at their max, descend like the devil and then do the flats with around 250 W doing around 23 mph. No stops other than to grab bottles. 10 hours on a flat double with a groups....easier by far. Putting that kind of power down for 10 hours is special.
Weatherby,

This is what I'm looking for. I'm not interested in doing it solo. I'm wondering what shape I need to be in to do it in 10 hours with 10,000 feet of climbing and as much wheel-sucking as possible. With your current FTP of 275 do you think you could do it if you drafted through everything but the hills?
 
I am not sure whether to assume some stuff like it will be cool enough so you do not overheat or that you know not to overhydrate or underhydrate, etc. If your weight stays the same or you gain weight on a 200, you drank too much. Anyways, different topic.....read "Water Logged"...

I can ride at around 190W for a 400K Brevet if it is not hot. Hot and me do not mix well anymore. I have to back it down in the heat. When I was young, different story with heat.....bodies change.

Riding in a fast group matters a lot. It saves tons of energy (calories). You will have something like an overall 5500 kCal deficit to power your ride assuming your glycogen stores are all topped up at the start. I am burning at least 70% fat at those power levels or more but close to 0% on climbs because that is where I am pushing it as hard as I can. Assuming 6% grade average climb (might be too steep), you have around 32 miles of climbing and 32 miles of descending and of course 136 miles of flats. These are wild guesses knowign nothing about your route.

Those 136 miles of flats might only take 5:45 in a fast group saving you maybe 45 minutes in time.....pretty huge.

The 32 miles of descents could be 50-60 minutes if you are fearless, jam over the top, and tuck.

How much time is left to climb? Assume you only need 3 lightning quick bottle changes (4 sets of bottles since you started with a full set....it is cool out, right) and that takes only 5-10 minutes (big assumption). You have maybe 4:10 to climb 32 miles of the assumed 6% grades and assuming you are not heavy, that would appear quite possible but these things can seem easy on paper or online calculators these days. If the climbs are really hot or you are not fueled for a hard effort on the climbs? Probably not. No, correct that. NFW.

Last and biggest challenge is the required energy. Not your FTP. How you fuel that power for 10 hours. Big difference compared to a Century or even a double metric (200k). Where will those 5000 or so extra calories come from? No way to absorb 500 cal per hour at the power level needed and therefore, it gets down to fat burning capability that will make or break it. Do you have a fueling strategy? What will you use to fuel? What has your experience been with various sources of fuel? How many calories can you take in per hour? 300 per hour is a lot. 200 should be easily achievable if it is not hot. So, you need to be able to burn 2000-3000 from fat, 1600-2000 stored glycogen, and 2000-3000 from what you eat on the ride. (I do not remember your weight, so, these are illustrative examples). How will you carry these powders, gels, whatever you eat? Given that the climbs will be ridden very hard and will consume so much glycogen, your efficiency on the remaining part of the ride will determine your success and that includes being extremely quick at stops like in and out. You won't have time to figure your fuel out at rest stops. Will someone be handing you already prepared bottles? If not, you need to carry your powder on your bike and mix it.....figure this time. Fat burning percentage varies based upon our training, %VO2 max used, and of course power output during the ride. I have estimated mine at LT1 by starting a ride with glycogen topped up and riding at LT1 until I bonked and frankly, I think this is good training to burn fat but that is just me. I have also done other things to maximixe fat buring capabilities. For reference, I can go 125 miles at that pace (around 190 watts) without eating or consuming any carbs but I would guess most riders need to eat if they go beyond 50-60 miles because they are burning so much glycogen at relatively low power. If I were you I would try to figure fueling out and develop a strategy around it. How much can you consume per hour after hour? This is a whole big experiment. I stay clear of fructose and that means alot of commercial energy drinks. I often use straight modified corn starch (100% amylopectin instead of a mix of amylopectin and amylose) although maltodextrin with some BCAA thrown in is also good and cheap and helpful and works good for me....100-150 cals per hour keeps me going at MY pace. If you can train your gut to handle AND absorb 300 cals per hour and you do not have central fatigue cropping up at that distance and you have good wheels to follow and it is cool....maybe you can crack 10 hours. Go for it. It is possible. I think it is a long shot but don't listen to me, I tend to prepare for the worst case scenarios and am happy with it turns out good.

Sorry if this was overly pedantic.....I would say let it rip. Worst case? You bonk and/or throw up. Rest for 30 minutes and consume carbs and you will feel better. Accept the results. Learn from them.
 
Maybe.

I did look at the route profile after posting and much of the climbing is long and gentle favoring wheel sucking. Plus all of the climbing is done early and it is only 8,000 feet not 10,000, also favoring a fast ride. If there is an easy Double, this looks like an easy one.

Looking at the finish times posted last year, it don't look like too many sub 10 hour finishes because the first 7 finishers came in a 3:36 PM and supposedly it starts at 6am.....so, this would be just under 10 hours assuming that start was 6am. The next small stragglers came in at like 4:15 and then the next group at 5:15 (11 hours and change).


An old Guy said:
That was long but a worthwhile read.

I think you are a bit optimistic.
 
Weatherby said:
Maybe.

I did look at the route profile after posting and much of the climbing is long and gentle favoring wheel sucking. Plus all of the climbing is done early and it is only 8,000 feet not 10,000, also favoring a fast ride. If there is an easy Double, this looks like an easy one.

Looking at the finish times posted last year, it don't look like too many sub 10 hour finishes because the first 7 finishers came in a 3:36 PM and supposedly it starts at 6am.....so, this would be just under 10 hours assuming that start was 6am. The next small stragglers came in at like 4:15 and then the next group at 5:15 (11 hours and change).
There were no sub-10 hour finishes.

All riders had to be on course by 5:15am. This would mean a 10 hour finish time, given the latest start time, would be 15:15pm. 15:36pm is the earliest listed time of a rider that checked in with their RFID chip.
 
FYI: Davis Double registration is open.

200 registered in the first hour. Maybe the 1,000 available spots selling out will be the only thing that happens sub-10 hours. ;)
 
Definitely a worthwhile read; pedantic is good. Bleak but good.

I certainly have my work cut out for me. Guess I'll lease an electric bike for the second half or maybe I'll just buy the jersey and call it a day. ;-)

Fueling strategy? Nothing beyond eating a clif bar per hour. I guess I'm going to have to 'learn' to burn fat. You do this by just riding without food? I doubt I can go 125 miles at 190 watts without eating but I've never actually tried. Any suggestions there would be most welcome.

Do your amylopectin + maltodextrin + BCAA mixtures have a name or are you mixing these yourself? How did you learn that fructose disagreed with you?

Thanks!
 
LivingInThePast said:
Definitely a worthwhile read; pedantic is good. Bleak but good.

I certainly have my work cut out for me.
Fueling strategy? Nothing beyond eating a clif bar per hour. I guess I'm going to have to 'learn' to burn fat. You do this by just riding without food? I doubt I can go 125 miles at 190 watts without eating but I've never actually tried. Any suggestions there would be most welcome.
I think there is a communication issue here. You cannot imagine how much can go wrong in 200 miles. Or how much you can hurt. I don't think many people who have done 200 miles approached it from having survived a 50 mile ride.

I spent a year or so doing 200 miles most days, I was in great shape. I remember walking 20 minutes up a hill at 110 miles because I had nothing left. It was a long ride home. (The next day I did the same route at the same effort and had no issues.) I remember stopping after 190 miles lying on the ground and hoping to die. Yes, there were some good days. I remember being out at 150 miles looking at the hills and doing 70 extra miles (270 for the day) before going home. But most days were spent just trying to keep my effort up and trying to get home.

The best case for you is you are going to hold onto a group for 50 miles. Then you are going to fall off the pace. You will be alone, sore, tired, and have 150 more miles to go. It is not going to be fun. If you are in great shape, you might be able to put out 50% of your 1 hour power for those last 150 miles.
 
An old Guy said:
I think there is a communication issue here. You cannot imagine how much can go wrong in 200 miles. Or how much you can hurt. I don't think many people who have done 200 miles approached it from having survived a 50 mile ride....

...The best case for you is you are going to hold onto a group for 50 miles. Then you are going to fall off the pace. You will be alone, sore, tired, and have 150 more miles to go. It is not going to be fun.
No, no, I get it. What I'm trying to do is a long shot; I've done this ride before and I know what a death march it can become. I'm just trying to minimize the amount of time that I'm miserable. I'll evaluate my circumstances on the road and if it looks like I'm in for a prolonged sufferfest I'm more than happy to jump onto a sag wagon. My days of gutting out endurance events for no good reason are behind me.

Weatherby has given me some great pointers and a glimmer of hope that this isn't completely quixotic. He said he managed a 10:30 with 10,000 feet of climbing riding solo; I'm trying to climb 9000 feet sucking every wheel I can find. I remain hopeful. (That being said, I have notified the UCDavis Raptor Center where to send the vultures - I hate to see good meat go to waste) :)
 
To have been more forthright, I should have also said I was in a skinsuit, aerobars, TT helmet, and timetrial wheels with Conti Comp tubulars pumped up real good. I was 20+ years younger, too. Four racers from the local cycling team almost cracked 10 hours.....10:08 IIRC I could be wrong but to crack 10 hours on a double with 10,000 feet climbing takes some serious doing....obviously plenty of riders have done it. I was riding the flats at 24mph and climbing as hard as I could all day.

Cliff bar per hour.....may I kindly suggest a 10 hour training ride eating ten of these things. I like them as snacks but......anyways....See how that works. GL!!

Try a century around 4:30. If you can't do this, never will you crack 10 hours on a double plus a century does not take much out of you.
 
There was some reasonably fast lads leading the paceline last year. Noone did under 10 hours.

Pace sensibly, ride and have fun. The last 80 miles are reasonably similar to previous years so you have a clue what to expect.

Enjoy the lunch stop at Lower Lake, savor the excellent chili at the last Firehouse rest stop. The firehouse prior to that at Guinda always has cold drinks and on those 100 to 110F days, small paddling pools with cold water than feel so good for your feet...

If I was so eager to jump on the sag wagon and puss out, I'd stay home.
 
swampy1970 said:
There was some reasonably fast lads leading the paceline last year. Noone did under 10 hours.

Pace sensibly, ride and have fun. The last 80 miles are reasonably similar to previous years so you have a clue what to expect.

Enjoy the lunch stop at Lower Lake, savor the excellent chili at the last Firehouse rest stop. The firehouse prior to that at Guinda always has cold drinks and on those 100 to 110F days, small paddling pools with cold water than feel so good for your feet...

If I was so eager to jump on the sag wagon and puss out, I'd stay home.
Cluck! Cluck! Cluck! I might at at that. :) Only 250 signed up so far and only 7 tandems! Slim pickins for fast drafts.

It sure seems to me there were much faster finishing times in the 70s. Maybe the course was much easier back in the day?
 
LivingInThePast said:
Cluck! Cluck! Cluck! I might at at that. :) Only 250 signed up so far and only 7 tandems! Slim pickins for fast drafts.

It sure seems to me there were much faster finishing times in the 70s. Maybe the course was much easier back in the day?
I'm sure to you really old folk, everything seemed faster in the 70's.

There'll be enough people in the paceline for a fast ride but at 170lbs I don't think you'll be hanging on over the climbs of the dam at the start of Lake Berryessa and cardiac hill just a mile or two later.
 
Stage 9 of the 1974 TDF was barely done at a sub 10 hour "Double Century" pace and the distance was "only" 241 km......
 
Weatherby said:
Stage 9 of the 1974 TDF was barely done at a sub 10 hour "Double Century" pace and the distance was "only" 241 km......
I'm not sure how to compare that since they were racing through the Alps.