What happens when you oppose Bu$hCo too vigorously

[limerickman]

Bill, Bill.
Steady on.

Yes so...let me get this straight...Bush went to war in Iraq for false reasons to profit from the war....

Who here said Bush went to war with Iraq for profit?
No one here said that, Bill.

....however now you are claiming that it was actually Bin Laden calling the shots all along.

Binladen's called the tune since 2001.

Your country invaded Iraq in, err, 2003.



Separate issues - Binladen and Iraq.

But both foreign policy disasters for Bush.

 

[davidmc]

The case for the war, in my opinion, never stood up.
Yes, Saddam was a bad man.
Yes, Saddam gassed the kurds.
Yes, saddam and his family ruled Iraq by fear, murder.

However Saddam was never a threat to the USA.
And only by being a threat - could the USA justify an invasion of Iraq.

The goodwill of the Iraqi people evaporated when it became clear that the USA's invasion allowed Iraq to descend in to anarchy.
It was obvious that Saddam keep a lid on the internal tensions between Sunni and Shia.
But with the creation of that vacuum - through invasion - Iraq slowly slipped from euphoria in to what we know see.

Also the invasion allowed Iraq to become a rallying point for foreign fighters who want to engage the USA.

The entire fiasco is a mess : the Iraqi people suffer the most.

What is your view on SH's regime impeding weapons inspectors and thus violating The UN Security Council's Resolution 1441 Are you saying UN Security Council Resolutions are only empty threats If so, we should dissolve the UN.

 

[BillM]

Bill, Bill.
Steady on.




Who here said Bush went to war with Iraq for profit?
No one here said that, Bill.

Limerick....that has been said numerous times. That the war was for the profit of both he and his "big oil" cronies.

Binladen's called the tune since 2001.

Your country invaded Iraq in, err, 2003.

You are delusional. Let's take the recent incursion into Lebanon....where was your hero Bin Laden then? In a cave...living like a cockroach...hoping like hell that he doesn't show up on a satellite image because a Tomahawk or a drone would take him out....this is assuming that he isn't dead already.

Separate issues - Binladen and Iraq.

Not really.....if you call the shots....you call the shots. Bin Laden is a tick on the ass of America...nothing more.

But both foreign policy disasters for Bush.

This I will agree with you 100%.

 

[stevebaby]

No...it was cheek....it must be an American thing.

http://images.www3.cyclingforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gif
ist2_104231_perfect_as_a_peach.jpg

 

[BillM]

http://images.www3.cyclingforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gif
ist2_104231_perfect_as_a_peach.jpg

I get your reference however...the ass kissing is best left for countries to weak in mind and spirit to make a difference in the world.

JMO...I am sure yours will vary.

 

[stevebaby]

Limerick....that has been said numerous times. That the war was for the profit of both he and his "big oil" cronies.


You are delusional. Let's take the recent incursion into Lebanon....where was your hero Bin Laden then? In a cave...living like a cockroach...hoping like hell that he doesn't show up on a satellite image because a Tomahawk or a drone would take him out....this is assuming that he isn't dead already.


Not really.....if you call the shots....you call the shots. Bin Laden is a tick on the ass of America...nothing more.


This I will agree with you 100%.

Nobody in the US knows where bin Laden is living,but you claim to know how he's living. For all you know,he's living in a mansion in Jakarta...or Saudi Arabia.You haven't a clue.
If bin laden is nothing more than a tick on the ass,as you assert,then he's a tick on the ass who managed to kill 3 000 of your citizens and get away with it.He's also a tick on the ass who has managed to turn the other war (Iraq) to his advantage and a tick on the ass who has caused the US to go massively into debt to fund The Global War on Truth.I doubt he cares much about the profits of Halliburton et al. After all,those profits aren't coming out of his pocket...they're coming out of yours.
As the saying goes..."A capitalist will sell you the rope that you hang him with." Well,the neo-cons sold bin Laden the rope,or rather...gave it to him.
He must be laughing his head off.

 

[davidmc]

Nobody in the US knows where bin Laden is living,but you claim to know how he's living. For all you know,he's living in a mansion in Jakarta...or Saudi Arabia.You haven't a clue.
If bin laden is nothing more than a tick on the ass,as you assert,then he's a tick on the ass who managed to kill 3 000 of your citizens and get away with it.He's also a tick on the ass who has managed to turn the other war (Iraq) to his advantage and a tick on the ass who has caused the US to go massively into debt to fund The Global War on Truth.I doubt he cares much about the profits of Halliburton et al. After all,those profits aren't coming out of his pocket...they're coming out of yours.
As the saying goes..."A capitalist will sell you the rope that you hang him with." Well,the neo-cons sold bin Laden the rope,or rather...gave it to him.
He must be laughing his head off.

Sad but true. I don't beleive Bu$hCo. wants anything to do w/ him because if he is captured or killed he will receive martyr status thus further emboldening the radical islamicists It would seem that the trust fund societies in the middle east and their madrasas have so much time on their hands due to the payouts by the monarch's/dictator's to assuage them so that the monarch's can remain in power that they just sit idly by waiting/plotting for word from their leader-OBL.

 

[BillM]

Nobody in the US knows where bin Laden is living,but you claim to know how he's living. For all you know,he's living in a mansion in Jakarta...or Saudi Arabia.You haven't a clue.
If bin laden is nothing more than a tick on the ass,as you assert,then he's a tick on the ass who managed to kill 3 000 of your citizens and get away with it.He's also a tick on the ass who has managed to turn the other war (Iraq) to his advantage and a tick on the ass who has caused the US to go massively into debt to fund The Global War on Truth.I doubt he cares much about the profits of Halliburton et al. After all,those profits aren't coming out of his pocket...they're coming out of yours.
As the saying goes..."A capitalist will sell you the rope that you hang him with." Well,the neo-cons sold bin Laden the rope,or rather...gave it to him.
He must be laughing his head off.

Steve...do you think he's living in a mansion in Jakarta? I mean if you really had to guess and come up with your most educated guess....do you think he's living the high life or is he hiding in the mountains...praying not to get tomahawked?

 

[EoinC]

....do you think he's living the high life or is he hiding in the mountains...praying not to get tomahawked?

Bill - seeing as OBL voluntarily left the comforts of Saudi and went to Afghanistan and fought with
the Mujahideen in the 80's, I don't think he could really be classified as a 'fraidy cat. Having personally spent some time in the tribal areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan in the early 90's, I think you may be seriously underestimating the courage of the people there. I'm not saying that they are pointed in the right direction, but these people are certainly used to looking death in the eye.
In all my time there, including seeing people in life & death situations, I never saw even children cower. In fact, the only person I ever saw to show any kind of fear was myself, when I got thrown in a Pakistani jail (for what only turned out to be 1 night).
If the American public's image is that these are people gripped with fear, you have got it way wrong. Life in the tribal areas has been precarious since before Alexander the Great came through there. The Soviet and Coalition presences are mere blips on the radar in their daily fight for survival.

 

[limerickman]

What is your view on SH's regime impeding weapons inspectors and thus violating The UN Security Council's Resolution 1441 Are you saying UN Security Council Resolutions are only empty threats If so, we should dissolve the UN.

Saddam made the point that he did not have WMD - throughout 2002 - when 1442 was being formented.

In addition Hans Blix (UN Weapon inspector) made the point that Iraq was in fact co-operating with the weapons inspectors.

I don't know if UN resolutions are empty as such.

 

[limerickman]

Limerick....that has been said numerous times. That the war was for the profit of both he and his "big oil" cronies.

Bill, calm down, Bill.

We were all discussing Iraq for the three years prior to your appearance here.

Your country invaded Iraq in, 2003.
Your country didn't invade Iraq to try to find Binladen, Bill.

You are delusional. Let's take the recent incursion into Lebanon....where was your hero Bin Laden then?

Bill - where did I say Binladen was my hero?
Can you show me where I referred to Binladen as a hero?

Bill, this is the third time in as many messages that you have falsely attributed statements to me, Bill.
Why do you try to attribute false statements, Bill?

In a cave...living like a cockroach...hoping like hell that he doesn't show up on a satellite image because a Tomahawk or a drone would take him out....this is assuming that he isn't dead already.

Bill, for the fourth time, you nor anyone else knows where Binladen is.

And in respect of Lebanon - the Israeli invasion of Lebanon has nothing whatsoever got to do with Binladen.

Not really.....if you call the shots....you call the shots. Bin Laden is a tick on the ass of America...nothing more.

Bill, you're in denial - it's plainly obvious that Binladen has dominated the political landscape of your country for the past 5 years.
Look at the amount of money your country has spent in the last five years on those foreign policy disasters.

I don't expect you to acknowledge this fact.

 

[limerickman]

Nobody in the US knows where bin Laden is living,but you claim to know how he's living. For all you know,he's living in a mansion in Jakarta...or Saudi Arabia.You haven't a clue.
If bin laden is nothing more than a tick on the ass,as you assert,then he's a tick on the ass who managed to kill 3 000 of your citizens and get away with it.He's also a tick on the ass who has managed to turn the other war (Iraq) to his advantage and a tick on the ass who has caused the US to go massively into debt to fund The Global War on Truth.I doubt he cares much about the profits of Halliburton et al. After all,those profits aren't coming out of his pocket...they're coming out of yours.
As the saying goes..."A capitalist will sell you the rope that you hang him with." Well,the neo-cons sold bin Laden the rope,or rather...gave it to him.
He must be laughing his head off.

Agreed.

And the unforunate thing is that Binladen is almost inconsequential at this point.
The movement which he represents is transnational.
The genie's been let out of the bottle.

America had a lot of international goodwill in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.
America's actions since then has managed to alienate practically all of that international goodwill.

 

[limerickman]

Bill - seeing as OBL voluntarily left the comforts of Saudi and went to Afghanistan and fought with
the Mujahideen in the 80's, I don't think he could really be classified as a 'fraidy cat. Having personally spent some time in the tribal areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan in the early 90's, I think you may be seriously underestimating the courage of the people there. I'm not saying that they are pointed in the right direction, but these people are certainly used to looking death in the eye.
In all my time there, including seeing people in life & death situations, I never saw even children cower. In fact, the only person I ever saw to show any kind of fear was myself, when I got thrown in a Pakistani jail (for what only turned out to be 1 night).
If the American public's image is that these are people gripped with fear, you have got it way wrong. Life in the tribal areas has been precarious since before Alexander the Great came through there. The Soviet and Coalition presences are mere blips on the radar in their daily fight for survival.

Eoin,

Everything I've ever read, bears out what you're saying above about the Afghan people.

 

[davidmc]

In addition Hans Blix (UN Weapon inspector) made the point that Iraq was in fact co-operating with the weapons inspectors.

Our definitions of the word "cooperating" must differ. there were numerous televised impedances

 

[davidmc]

Agreed.

And the unforunate thing is that Binladen is almost inconsequential at this point.
The movement which he represents is transnational.
The genie's been let out of the bottle.

America had a lot of international goodwill in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.
America's actions since then has managed to alienate practically all of that international goodwill.

Agreed. I do not condone any foreign policy decisions post-Iraq invasion by this country's razor-thin elected administration. Pre-Iraq invasion if one takes into acct. the lack of coherency/direction of post-conflict decisions.

 

[davidmc]

Updated: 2:17 p.m. ET Sept 11, 2006
CHARLESTON, S.C. - Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham said the United States has "screwed up" in Iraq, but the idea of the war was correct and pulling out now would lead to more bloodshed across the Middle East.

"I know Iraq is a mess and we have screwed up seven ways from Sunday," the South Carolina senator told about 300 people at the College of Charleston on Sunday.

"We underestimated how hard it would be. But the fundamental idea behind Iraq is still correct," said Graham, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14787062/
This has import in that this Senator is skeptical if not outright opposed to the admin.'s planned military tribunal method of the adjudication of enemy combatants.

 

[BillM]

Bill - seeing as OBL voluntarily left the comforts of Saudi and went to Afghanistan and fought with
the Mujahideen in the 80's, I don't think he could really be classified as a 'fraidy cat. Having personally spent some time in the tribal areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan in the early 90's, I think you may be seriously underestimating the courage of the people there. I'm not saying that they are pointed in the right direction, but these people are certainly used to looking death in the eye.
In all my time there, including seeing people in life & death situations, I never saw even children cower. In fact, the only person I ever saw to show any kind of fear was myself, when I got thrown in a Pakistani jail (for what only turned out to be 1 night).
If the American public's image is that these are people gripped with fear, you have got it way wrong. Life in the tribal areas has been precarious since before Alexander the Great came through there. The Soviet and Coalition presences are mere blips on the radar in their daily fight for survival.

Yeah...courageous....strapping bombs onto their children and sending them into Israel.

Courageous.

If OBL is so courageous...why doesn't he volunteer for martyrdom and poke his head up out of the rat hole?

 

[BillM]

Bill, calm down, Bill.

We were all discussing Iraq for the three years prior to your appearance here.

Your country invaded Iraq in, 2003.
Your country didn't invade Iraq to try to find Binladen, Bill.

Limerick...honestly....I am quite calm.

Stick to the topic and don't spin. I didn't say we invaded Iraq to find Bin Laden....I said that it has been claimed on here MANY times that the war with Iraq was engineered by Bush to profit from it.

You said...that this was not true.

You know...that that claim has been made many times....and now you are trying to change the topic.....again.

Bill - where did I say Binladen was my hero?
Can you show me where I referred to Binladen as a hero?

Bill, this is the third time in as many messages that you have falsely attributed statements to me, Bill.
Why do you try to attribute false statements, Bill?

Limerick...you will find life to be much easier if you stop trying to be so literal. You migrate from literal to elusive depending on how the situation suits you.

If you think Bin Laden is capable of being the shot caller for the globe...then to me that is admiration...maybe hero is a strong word....but I am sure you get the point. You are just being glib at this point.

Bill, for the fourth time, you nor anyone else knows where Binladen is.

And in respect of Lebanon - the Israeli invasion of Lebanon has nothing whatsoever got to do with Binladen.

If you are the shot caller...then you'd be involved and you're opinion would be relevant. You claim that Bin Laden is calling the shots (which using your logic...you don't KNOW that Bin Laden is calling the shots...you don't even KNOW if Bin Laden is alive right.... )....so if he's the shot caller...where was he in regards to Lebanon.

For the 5th time...I know this is hard for you...but keep trying....you'll get it someday.

Bill, you're in denial - it's plainly obvious that Binladen has dominated the political landscape of your country for the past 5 years.
Look at the amount of money your country has spent in the last five years on those foreign policy disasters.

Someone has to have the sack to take on terrorists...it sure won't be Ireland.

I don't expect you to acknowledge this fact.

Then why do you bother making the allegation? Do you simply enjoy beating your head against the wall in a useless argument?

 

[davidmc]

[/i] Do you simply enjoy beating your head against the wall in a useless argument?

stick @ long enough & you will become accustomed to it

 

[stevebaby]

Bill - seeing as OBL voluntarily left the comforts of Saudi and went to Afghanistan and fought with
the Mujahideen in the 80's, I don't think he could really be classified as a 'fraidy cat. Having personally spent some time in the tribal areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan in the early 90's, I think you may be seriously underestimating the courage of the people there. I'm not saying that they are pointed in the right direction, but these people are certainly used to looking death in the eye.
In all my time there, including seeing people in life & death situations, I never saw even children cower. In fact, the only person I ever saw to show any kind of fear was myself, when I got thrown in a Pakistani jail (for what only turned out to be 1 night).
If the American public's image is that these are people gripped with fear, you have got it way wrong. Life in the tribal areas has been precarious since before Alexander the Great came through there. The Soviet and Coalition presences are mere blips on the radar in their daily fight for survival.

Some years ago I read an autobiography of a British Officer of Gurkhas who had fought in the area prior to WWll.He also fought against the Japanese and had travelled widely and in his opinion,the people of the NW Frontier and Afghanistan were the physically toughest he had ever seen.
He fought in three wars in Afghanistan.After each war,when the tribesmen heard that the British troops were receiving decorations,the tribesmen would present themselves to the British political agent in Kabul to demand their medals. After all,they had fought too...just on the other side!
They regarded the wars as a bit of sport put on by the British for the tribesmen's entertainment.