What Is "Alloy"?

jim beam said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

Tom Sherman said:

Unalloyed aluminium is a very poor structural material and is used
mostly for corrosion resistant cladding.

It's not all that corrosion resistant, either :-)

the pure aluminum cladding sherman refers to is indeed very corrosion
resistant. next time you fly, look at the shiny corrosion-free exterior
of your plane.

Well, the bottoms of many commercial airliners are not that shiny (I
live close enough to the airport to ride my bicycle to the viewing area
below final approach).

This will make some people drool on their keyboards:
<http://www.lunabase.org/~faber/Flying/seattle03/images/cessna_140.jpg>.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is it really unalloyed?

pretty much.

Quoted message said:

Is it coated (paint, anodized, polymer film)?

Alcoa couldn't wait: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alclad>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

jim beam said:

Agent Smith said:

Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Agent Smith wrote:
> Does anybody know the name (or names) of the famous alloy from which
> high- end racing components are made? :] Whenever I see it referred
> to in books and articles, it is just called "alloy," but apparently
> there's a whole branch of engineering that's embodied in that single
> word, and writers gloss over the whole subject when they say that.
Metals should be referred to by their proper names, e.g. 6061-T6
aluminium alloy, 4130 chromium-molybdenum steel.

Unalloyed aluminium is a very poor structural material and is used
mostly for corrosion resistant cladding.

I've got it. It's 7075 Zinc-Aluminum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_alloy

some components are made of 2000 series [dura-ace cranks], not 7000
series. 6000 and 7000 series are used more commonly in extrusions like
rims, handlebar and frame tube.

Is not the Shimano Dura-Ace® name derived in part from Duralumin, which
is an older name for 2000 series alloys?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

aka Jobst Brandt said:

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

Does anybody know the name (or names) of the famous alloy from
which high- end racing components are made? :] Whenever I see it
referred to in books and articles, it is just called "alloy," but
apparently there's a whole branch of engineering that's embodied in
that single word, and writers gloss over the whole subject when
they say that.

Quoted message said:

Metals should be referred to by their proper names, e.g. 6061-T6
aluminium alloy, 4130 chromium-molybdenum steel.

Quoted message said:

Unalloyed aluminium is a very poor structural material and is used
mostly for corrosion resistant cladding.

General use has lead to the use of "Alloy" when Aluminum is meant,
probably because it is a shorter word, while mag is used for aluminum
(aluminium) or magnesium alloy automobile wheels. The broad use of
"alloy" in lieu of aluminum is especially common in bicycling.

I worked as a graduate student TA for a crusty old materials professor,
who would practically run students out of the laboratory for such misuse.

Quoted message said:

English isn't getting better with such slang although the excuse "You
know what I mean" is invoked to justify sloppy talk. I get the
impression that most of the alloy-folks don't know what an alloy is.

Being financially liable for what one writes is incentive for avoiding
such sloppiness.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

jim beam said:

Agent Smith said:

Does anybody know the name (or names) of the famous alloy from which
high-
end racing components are made? :] Whenever I see it referred to in
books and articles, it is just called "alloy," but apparently there's
a whole branch of engineering that's embodied in that single word, and
writers gloss over the whole subject when they say that.

just like "plastic".

When I read "plastic", my first thought is non-recoverable deformation.
People do look at me weirdly for using "polymer" in regular conversation. 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

Quoted message said:

>> Does anybody know the name (or names) of the famous alloy from
>> which high- end racing components are made? :] Whenever I see it
>> referred to in books and articles, it is just called "alloy," but
>> apparently there's a whole branch of engineering that's embodied in
>> that single word, and writers gloss over the whole subject when
>> they say that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Metals should be referred to by their proper names, e.g. 6061-T6
> aluminium alloy, 4130 chromium-molybdenum steel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Unalloyed aluminium is a very poor structural material and is used
> mostly for corrosion resistant cladding.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

General use has lead to the use of "Alloy" when Aluminum is meant,
probably because it is a shorter word, while mag is used for
aluminum (aluminium) or magnesium alloy automobile wheels. The
broad use of "alloy" in lieu of aluminum is especially common in
bicycling.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

English isn't getting better with such slang although the excuse
"You know what I mean" is invoked to justify sloppy talk. I get
the impression that most of the alloy-folks don't know what an
alloy is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alloy

Quoted message said:

Is the "general use" different from the "broad use"?

It is uniformly used most folks if you like that term better. That is
to say, it is not an exception that the misnomer is used. If you
listen to people you will notice it, but only if you are not one of
the people who use it.

Quoted message said:

Are they both somehow different from the plain "use" that one led to?

Use can be spotty and rare. Therefore general use covers a wider
range, but if you went to school you know that. I wonder why you ask.

Quoted message said:

And are they merely "common", or are they "especially common"?

Let me reword that: The broad use of "alloy" in lieu of aluminum is
common especially in bicycling.

I see you are a stickler for word order.

Quoted message said:

The vast majority of RBT anxiously (not eagerly) awaits your future
quibbles, which serve to remind us of your ineffable superiority.

Thanks for coming out of the closet and making contrition with your
belief in "ineffable superiority".

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Please stop saying "aluminum" when you mean "aluminum alloy"--someone
might quibble that you're promoting "sloppy talk" with your quibbles.

:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

Does anybody know the name (or names) of the famous alloy from
which high- end racing components are made?  :] Whenever I see it
referred to in books and articles, it is just called "alloy," but
apparently there's a whole branch of engineering that's embodied in
that single word, and writers gloss over the whole subject when
they say that.

Metals should be referred to by their proper names, e.g. 6061-T6
aluminium alloy, 4130 chromium-molybdenum steel.
Unalloyed aluminium is a very poor structural material and is used
mostly for corrosion resistant cladding.

General use has lead to the use of "Alloy" when Aluminum is meant,
probably because it is a shorter word, while mag is used for aluminum
(aluminium) or magnesium alloy automobile wheels.  The broad use of
"alloy" in lieu of aluminum is especially common in bicycling.

English isn't getting better with such slang although the excuse "You
know what I mean" is invoked to justify sloppy talk.  I get the
impression that most of the alloy-folks don't know what an alloy is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alloy

Jobst Brandt

Mail oder bike parts employ IGS standards when prices fall below $70
leading to an unalloyed usage.

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does anybody know the name (or names) of the famous alloy from
which high-end racing components are made? :] Whenever I see it
referred to in books and articles, it is just called "alloy," but
apparently there's a whole branch of engineering that's embodied
in that single word, and writers gloss over the whole subject when
they say that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just like "plastic".

Quoted message said:

When I read "plastic", my first thought is non-recoverable
deformation. People do look at me weirdly for using "polymer" in
regular conversation.

The "plastic" battle is over as I see it. Plastic has been part of
English vernacular so long and with reasonable cause that, without
modifiers, it means a nonmetallic polymer. I doesn't lead to
misinterpretation as "alloy" does with metals, especially aluminum.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plastic

Jobst Brandt

RESINS MIT EINE SCHNITZER JA ?

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a
réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

> Does anybody know the name (or names) of the famous alloy from
> which high-end racing components are made? :] Whenever I see it
> referred to in books and articles, it is just called "alloy," but
> apparently there's a whole branch of engineering that's embodied
> in that single word, and writers gloss over the whole subject when
> they say that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just like "plastic".

Quoted message said:

When I read "plastic", my first thought is non-recoverable
deformation. People do look at me weirdly for using "polymer" in
regular conversation.

The "plastic" battle is over as I see it. Plastic has been part of
English vernacular so long and with reasonable cause that, without
modifiers, it means a nonmetallic polymer. I doesn't lead to
misinterpretation as "alloy" does with metals, especially aluminum.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plastic

Jobst Brandt

So, I suppose you would not be offended to know that the original meaning
has nothing to do with your understanding, e.g., the "plastic arts". Like
alloy, which ain't aluminium.

Quoted message said:

On 09 Apr 2008 22:24:55 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
Carl Fogel wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The vast majority of RBT anxiously (not eagerly) awaits your future
quibbles, which serve to remind us of your ineffable superiority.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for coming out of the closet and making contrition with your
belief in "ineffable superiority".

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Please stop saying "aluminum" when you mean "aluminum alloy"--someone
might quibble that you're promoting "sloppy talk" with your quibbles.

:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

While I must agree with the assessment of Jobst's self-belief of
"ineffable superiority," let's deal with the facts-
Both "alloy" and "aluminum" in common parlance of the mainstream of
current bicycle discussion (be it marketing or factual ) refer to "
aluiminum alloy." Perhaps sloppy, but that's the way it is in the
real world.

OK, for that matter, is UNalloyed aluminum used in ANY modern day
application where the constituent material is designated as
"aluminum?"

DR

DirtRoadie said:

Quoted message said:

On 09 Apr 2008 22:24:55 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:
Carl Fogel wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The vast majority of RBT anxiously (not eagerly) awaits your future
> quibbles, which serve to remind us of your ineffable superiority.
Thanks for coming out of the closet and making contrition with your
belief in "ineffable superiority".
Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Please stop saying "aluminum" when you mean "aluminum alloy"--someone
might quibble that you're promoting "sloppy talk" with your quibbles.

:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

While I must agree with the assessment of Jobst's self-belief of
"ineffable superiority," let's deal with the facts-
Both "alloy" and "aluminum" in common parlance of the mainstream of
current bicycle discussion (be it marketing or factual ) refer to "
aluiminum alloy." Perhaps sloppy, but that's the way it is in the
real world.

OK, for that matter, is UNalloyed aluminum used in ANY modern day
application where the constituent material is designated as
"aluminum?"

Yes, as I posted elsewhere on this thread, as a corrosion resistant
cladding.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman said:

jim beam said:

Agent Smith said:

Does anybody know the name (or names) of the famous alloy from which
high-
end racing components are made? :] Whenever I see it referred to in
books and articles, it is just called "alloy," but apparently there's
a whole branch of engineering that's embodied in that single word,
and writers gloss over the whole subject when they say that.

just like "plastic".

When I read "plastic", my first thought is non-recoverable deformation.

is it should be.

Quoted message said:

People do look at me weirdly for using "polymer" in regular
conversation. 😉

you have many [many] faults, but that usage isn't one of them.

Tom Sherman said:

jim beam said:

Agent Smith said:

Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
> Agent Smith wrote:
>> Does anybody know the name (or names) of the famous alloy from which
>> high- end racing components are made? :] Whenever I see it referred
>> to in books and articles, it is just called "alloy," but apparently
>> there's a whole branch of engineering that's embodied in that single
>> word, and writers gloss over the whole subject when they say that.
> Metals should be referred to by their proper names, e.g. 6061-T6
> aluminium alloy, 4130 chromium-molybdenum steel.
>
> Unalloyed aluminium is a very poor structural material and is used
> mostly for corrosion resistant cladding.

I've got it. It's 7075 Zinc-Aluminum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_alloy

some components are made of 2000 series [dura-ace cranks], not 7000
series. 6000 and 7000 series are used more commonly in extrusions
like rims, handlebar and frame tube.

Is not the Shimano Dura-Ace® name derived in part from Duralumin, which
is an older name for 2000 series alloys?

might well be.

On Apr 9, 8:39 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

DirtRoadie wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While I must agree with the assessment of Jobst's self-belief of
"ineffable superiority," let's deal with the facts-
Both "alloy" and "aluminum" in common parlance of the mainstream of
current bicycle discussion (be it marketing or factual ) refer to "
aluiminum alloy." Perhaps sloppy, but that's the way it is in the
real world.

Quoted message said:

OK, for that matter, is UNalloyed aluminum used in ANY modern day
application where the constituent material is designated as
"aluminum?"

Yes, as I posted elsewhere on this thread, as a corrosion resistant
cladding.

Aluminum front surface mirror coatings (usually
made by sputtering).

Ben

Quoted message said:

On Apr 9, 8:39 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

DirtRoadie wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While I must agree with the assessment of Jobst's self-belief of
"ineffable superiority," let's deal with the facts-
Both "alloy" and "aluminum" in common parlance of the mainstream of
current bicycle discussion (be it marketing or factual ) refer to "
aluiminum alloy." Perhaps sloppy, but that's the way it is in the
real world.
OK, for that matter, is UNalloyed aluminum used in ANY modern day
application where the constituent material is designated as
"aluminum?"

Yes, as I posted elsewhere on this thread, as a corrosion resistant
cladding.

Aluminum front surface mirror coatings (usually
made by sputtering).

Ben

would you be an astronomer - by any chance?

Quoted message said:

Ben C? wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pure Al is also used very effectively in metal sandwiches for
cookware.
Internal layer of stainless steel.
Middle layer pure Al.
External layer of Al alloy or stainless steel.

What's the point of having the three layers like that? Something to
do with heat capacity or conduction?

People like stainless steel cookware and would like it to behave well
by not burning food on hot spots, sometimes in the shape of the gas
flame or electric coils under the pot. An aluminum core this gives
the user a stainless steel pot with good lateral conductivity (without
hot spots). Many people see aluminum as dangerous to health as lead
and avoid cooking food in aluminum pots.

I am in strong agreement about the improvement that
an aluminum core makes to stainless steel cookware
(for those of you following along, an example is the
classic variety of Farberware: stainless steel pots
with an aluminum disc underneath for heat conduction
and a stainless steel bottom layer for cleaning,
scratch and corrosion resistance).

I don't think there is strong evidence that aluminum
cookware is dangerous to health. Some years ago,
there was a scare because Alzheimer's patients tend to
have aluminum deposits in their brains. However, it is
considered more likely that Alzheimer's leads to the
accumulation of aluminum than that the aluminum
causes Alzheimer's. The amount of aluminum ingested
from cookware is typically smaller than from other
sources (food/drink; OTC pharmaceuticals, etc).
There is controversy on this subject, but that appears
to be a consensus from non-fad sources.

http://web1.msue.msu.edu/imp/mod02/01500616.html
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/consumer/con00036.html
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/05/ask_treehugger_16.php

However, aluminum is highly reactive and so very
acidic or basic foods should not be cooked or
stored in uncladded aluminum cookware - for example,
tomatoes, lemons, vinegar. It doesn't seem like a
great material for coffeepots, as well. It's not a
great idea to cook such foods in cast iron, either.

Hard-anodized aluminum cookware (like Calphalon) is
much less reactive and doesn't suffer the same issues
with either health scares or reacting with acidic
food and possibly making it taste metallic. However,
it is more expensive (but at least you're not paying
extra for the Mavic "CD" sticker).

Ben

On Wed, 09 Apr 2008 04:52:05 GMT, Agent Smith

may have said:

Does anybody know the name (or names) of the famous alloy from which high-
end racing components are made? :] Whenever I see it referred to in books
and articles, it is just called "alloy," but apparently there's a whole
branch of engineering that's embodied in that single word, and writers
gloss over the whole subject when they say that.

Unobtainium.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On 2008-04-10, DirtRoadie <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

While I must agree with the assessment of Jobst's self-belief of
"ineffable superiority," let's deal with the facts-
Both "alloy" and "aluminum" in common parlance of the mainstream of
current bicycle discussion (be it marketing or factual ) refer to "
aluiminum alloy." Perhaps sloppy, but that's the way it is in the
real world.

I consider "alloy" to be the slightly suspect kind of marketing speak.
The thing is practically every metallic material including steel used on
a bike is an alloy of some sort.

So when you're shopping for cheap racers in the 80s and they say "alloy
handlebars", and the handlebars appear to be painted black, are they
aluminium, anodized to look cool, or steel, painted to conceal their
characteristic steely lustre? People used to bring magnets to the shop.

The same goes for rims, which in those days often were steel. I retain a
suspicion of black paint. Some cheap racers nowadays have wheels with
about 20 steel spokes painted black, probably to imply "carbon" but
really because they are steel but not the stainless kind.

On Apr 10, 4:19 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I've decided to
put an end to the Scharf-Krygowski flamewars about
bicycle lights and halogens versus generators by
building a 6.5-meter aluminized reflecting headlamp.
Proper figuring will insure a good beam pattern
for either halogen or generator-powered sources.

Cool!

But with that thing, you _will_ want to waste plenty of light by
sending it upward, rather than onto the road. Otherwise, the next
time you pass under a bridge, you'll lose the top few meters of your
reflector.

(BTW, my generator lamps do have halogen bulbs. The flamewars are
mostly about using efficient optics vs. brutishly spraying lumens
everywhere.)

- Frank Krygowski

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

The vast majority of RBT anxiously (not eagerly) awaits your future

Do not arrogate to yourself the right to speak for rbt,
or the vast majority of rbt; particularly when you speak
to a particular person disparagingly.

--
Michael Press