what is considered a good FTP

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by WillemJM
Don't want to get at this again, but think you are hitting your true FTP over and over again, that is why you feel it is not hard and you can recover fast and repeat it several times. You have just not learnt the psychology to sustain that.

Hitting high ATP+CP+Muscle Glycogen levels repeatedly is impossible for more than 10 minutes for most of us, following at least two days to restore. That is the fastest way to loose a race.

You seem to make contradictory statements. You say with training he can sustain the high efforts. Then you say it is impossible for most of us. But I will agree. Anyone can do it. Few train to do it.

(Glycogen levels are returned to normal levels in 24 hours so that is not what requires the rest.)

But racing is much easier than what these posts indicate.

Learn to ride and work with friends. Make sure you have friends at races. Race your race not the race of the rest of the guys.

I will not tell you how to ride I don't know your strengths relative to those you race against.

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by WillemJM
Don't want to get at this again, but think you are hitting your true FTP over and over again, that is why you feel it is not hard and you can recover fast and repeat it several times. You have just not learnt the psychology to sustain that.

Hitting high ATP+CP+Muscle Glycogen levels repeatedly is impossible for more than 10 minutes for most of us, following at least two days to restore. That is the fastest way to loose a race.

As always, here is some reference from folks who know more:

http://www.americanroadcycling.org/TheBook/TrainingProgram.aspx?frm=MenVert

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/energy.htm

Hitting my true ftp? Again, the things you write lead me to believe you don't have a clue about bike racing at all.

I am hardly ever at ftp in a race. I'm either way, way over it, or a good ways below it. That's how bike racing works.

 

[WillemJM]

Originally Posted by needmoreair

Hitting my true ftp? Again, the things you write lead me to believe you don't have a clue about bike racing at all.

I am hardly ever at ftp in a race. I'm either way, way over it, or a good ways below it. That's how bike racing works.

I'm just curious?

The first link I posted is one of many research articles, pretty close to personal experience and coaching way back, probably when you were still learning to ride a tricycle.

Would you suggest that this author, among many others, also knows nothing about cycling?

You have already enlightened us in a different thread, to the fact that Joe Friel rates among the inexperienced?

From your posts, it is pretty obvious that you are relatively new to this, read a couple of books, perhaps ridden a few races. I don't really care, would just hate for some of our newer talent to follow your advice.

Perhaps we have found the new Superman? He believes he has incredible "Endurance" allows him infinite anaerobic repetitions, yet he cannot do a TT. Long miles in the legs are for those who have too much time on their hands, as this incredible feat is achieved with short hard training sessions. LOL

 

[smaryka]

Originally Posted by WillemJM

The first link I posted is one of many research articles, pretty close to personal experience and coaching way back, probably when you were still learning to ride a tricycle.

Do you think you could respond without throwing in this kind of p!ssing contest ****? Sort of gets in the way of useful conversation when people already have their backs up with personal insults.

Yeah yeah he said, you said, whatever, just respond nicely maybe and there can be a good discussion about it?

 

[WillemJM]

Originally Posted by smaryka
Do you think you could respond without throwing in this kind of p!ssing contest ****? Sort of gets in the way of useful conversation when people already have their backs up with personal insults.

Yeah yeah he said, you said, whatever, just respond nicely maybe and there can be a good discussion about it?

You are right.

This is what set me off, " Again, the things you write lead me to believe you don't have a clue about bike racing at all."

I probably should have just walked away, thought my initial post had good intentions.

Over and out.

 

[bgoetz]

Actually, I think the 95% rule of thumb has been redefined over time. The original suggestion was to use 95% of one's regular 2x20 efforts. This has two key elements. One, it is not a rested, "best" effort. Second, it is not a single 20min effort, but rather two 20min efforts with a short recovery duration (e.g., 5mins).

RD, I don't think it is 95% of 2x20 workouts, as most or at least me do my 2x20 at 90% of FTP. Maybe you meant what you can consistently do 2x20s at should be close to your FTP? This is a claim Dave use to make. For me FTP is nothing more than a tool to guide my training, so as long as I calculate it the same way every time it does not matter how I do it. That said, I think the 95% 20min works out somewhat close, but this may be a combo of my ability to really "motor" a long way and the fact that I don't have that motivation to utterly explode myself anymore, so I tend to sandbag the 20min a bit. I suppose I need to invest in a good Lion to chase me down the street. Anyway, I typically do 95% of 20, but then confirm it with other things like NP for an hour and yes some longer 1hr non threshold efforts that come in the ball park of my FTP. The idea of a 1hr test every time I want to set my FTP just does not appeal to me.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by bgoetz


I suppose I need to invest in a good Lion to chase me down the street.

That'll do it.

Friel says something similar in that a 30min best solo training effort is reasonably close to ones FTP considering that an absolute best can likely only be truly accomplished during a 40k TT or a race where chips are all in. Goes back to the old argument of whether FTP is what one can muster on a day under "ideal" circumstances vs. what can be accomplished any old day.

30 minutes is certainly an easier pill to swallow for regular balls to the wall testing though.

 

[fluro2au]

Originally Posted by bgoetz


RD, I don't think it is 95% of 2x20 workouts, as most or at least me do my 2x20 at 90% of FTP. Maybe you meant what you can consistently do 2x20s at should be close to your FTP? This is a claim Dave use to make.

For me FTP is nothing more than a tool to guide my training, so as long as I calculate it the same way every time it does not matter how I do it. That said, I think the 95% 20min works out somewhat close, but this may be a combo of my ability to really "motor" a long way and the fact that I don't have that motivation to utterly explode myself anymore, so I tend to sandbag the 20min a bit. I suppose I need to invest in a good Lion to chase me down the street.

Anyway, I typically do 95% of 20, but then confirm it with other things like NP for an hour and yes some longer 1hr non threshold efforts that come in the ball park of my FTP. The idea of a 1hr test every time I want to set my FTP just does not appeal to me.

Unless you are regularly doing a 40km TT you'll find knowing your FTP becomes, less and less of a number to worry about. If you look at most cycling events, the stand out feature to executing a good race is repeatability,quite often that just comes down to riding as hard as you can for 1-4min,....Knowing how often you can dial in and repeat high end efforts is the key to meeting the demands of an event, being fresh enough to ride strong at the end of an event and being able to execute an event to your strengths....Knowing your FTP doesn't do much other than being a tool to guide some of your training, as mentioned by Bgoetz above.

When I first bought a PM it was all about your FTP and setting up your zones and training accordingly. I now realise, that is not the best way to go about training. I now focus on what it is I expect to be exposed to in a race and work on that.



Paul

 

[ambal]

Originally Posted by fluro2au

Unless you are regularly doing a 40km TT you'll find knowing your FTP becomes, less and less of a number to worry about. If you look at most cycling events, the stand out feature to executing a good race is repeatability,quite often that just comes down to riding as hard as you can for 1-4min,....Knowing how often you can dial in and repeat high end efforts is the key to meeting the demands of an event, being fresh enough to ride strong at the end of an event and being able to execute an event to your strengths....Knowing your FTP doesn't do much other than being a tool to guide some of your training, as mentioned by Bgoetz above.

Thats spot on!

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by WillemJM
I'm just curious?

The first link I posted is one of many research articles, pretty close to personal experience and coaching way back, probably when you were still learning to ride a tricycle.

Would you suggest that this author, among many others, also knows nothing about cycling?

You have already enlightened us in a different thread, to the fact that Joe Friel rates among the inexperienced?

From your posts, it is pretty obvious that you are relatively new to this, read a couple of books, perhaps ridden a few races. I don't really care, would just hate for some of our newer talent to follow your advice.

Perhaps we have found the new Superman? He believes he has incredible "Endurance" allows him infinite anaerobic repetitions, yet he cannot do a TT. Long miles in the legs are for those who have too much time on their hands, as this incredible feat is achieved with short hard training sessions. LOL

As I've already posted before, I'm a Cat 1. I've raced numerous NRCs, numerous national championships, and numerous races in Europe. I've trained with heart rate and then with power at a very high level with very high level coaches in addition to my own research into physiology and methodology.

You, on the other hand, if I recall correctly, said that someone could increase their power up to 10% merely by increasing their cadence? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

So what exactly is obvious here?

Like I said, the things you write are so off the wall that you're either a master troll or absolutely clueless and oblivious to that fact. Either way, your level of competence when it comes to cycling is clearly wanting.

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by WillemJM
You are right.

This is what set me off, " Again, the things you write lead me to believe you don't have a clue about bike racing at all."

I probably should have just walked away, thought my initial post had good intentions.

Over and out.

But instead you come back 3-4 weeks afterwards and respond to my post that had absolutely nothing to do with you with some line about "not wanting to get into it again"? Disingenuous at best.

I need an ignore button for you and old guy.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by bgoetz

For me FTP is nothing more than a tool to guide my training, so as long as I calculate it the same way every time it does not matter how I do it. That said, I think the 95% 20min works out somewhat close, but this may be a combo of my ability to really "motor" a long way and the fact that I don't have that motivation to utterly explode myself anymore, so I tend to sandbag the 20min a bit. I suppose I need to invest in a good Lion to chase me down the street.

I think you just need to "man up" and get some 5, 2 and 1 minute intervals done. After many weeks of that, sitting on your FTP for 20 minutes will seem easier than pulling your guts out for those 5 and 2 minute efforts...

... or plan a 20 minute test in the form of a 10 mile TT. Ride at planned effort for the first 5 miles and if you're feeling like you're on the better side of death at mid-way then up it and see if the effort lasts the whole 5 miles to the finish. I used to find that doing a midweek TT series helped. We had a few to chose from, a hilly 12 milers or a pan flat and fast 10, with tons of little roundabouts thrown in for added entertainment. Lots of fun with 180psi in the slick 19mm Conti LA tubs.

A lion can sprint for short distances at speeds close to 50mph, so it'd be even telling Cav to "get f**ked"

 

[WillemJM]

Originally Posted by needmoreair

As I've already posted before, I'm a Cat 1. I've raced numerous NRCs, numerous national championships, and numerous races in Europe. I've trained with heart rate and then with power at a very high level with very high level coaches in addition to my own research into physiology and methodology.

You, on the other hand, if I recall correctly, said that someone could increase their power up to 10% merely by increasing their cadence? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

So what exactly is obvious here?

Like I said, the things you write are so off the wall that you're either a master troll or absolutely clueless and oblivious to that fact. Either way, your level of competence when it comes to cycling is clearly wanting.

Darn, I was hoping you would answer my main question (First link) and was looking forward to an intellectual discussion.

Oh well bye bye then.....

 

[JibberJim]

Originally Posted by swampy1970
A lion can sprint for short distances at speeds close to 50mph, so it'd be even telling Cav to "get f**ked"

That's impressive - I've never even seen one ride a bike at all - Banning "wild" animals from circuses over here sure has left me deprived.

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by WillemJM
Darn, I was hoping you would answer my main question (First link) and was looking forward to an intellectual discussion.

Oh well bye bye then.....

Can't have an intellectual discussion with someone who just applies random concepts to random situations and expects it to be a universal truth that can't be argued.

You don't know what you're talking about. I have given example after example. You ignore those examples so you can come up with yet another ridiculous assertion that has nothing to do with anything. Just like you did in your last harangue where, out of left field, you questioned whether my ftp was low because I could hit it again and again?

Hitting my ftp again and again? I mean, seriously, you can't read and you can't respond to what's written. Why on earth would you reply to my post that wasn't in any way addressed to you to showcase that inability?

 

[WillemJM]

Originally Posted by needmoreair

Can't have an intellectual discussion with someone who just applies random concepts to random situations and expects it to be a universal truth that can't be argued.

We don't really know who you are young man, a handle only and no location?

So as I don't know where you live I can't challenge you for a ride?

We all love this sport and put a lot of time into it, it takes a lot of discipline, time, perseverance and effort. Generally all cyclists are good great people!

So, here is both a challenge and a hand of friendship extended.

If you can respect others opinions, voice your own and have an intellectual debate, why don't we talk about our different opinions, get some from others and try and add value to the board with mutual respect?

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by fluro2au

Unless you are regularly doing a 40km TT you'll find knowing your FTP becomes, less and less of a number to worry about. If you look at most cycling events, the stand out feature to executing a good race is repeatability,quite often that just comes down to riding as hard as you can for 1-4min,....Knowing how often you can dial in and repeat high end efforts is the key to meeting the demands of an event, being fresh enough to ride strong at the end of an event and being able to execute an event to your strengths....Knowing your FTP doesn't do much other than being a tool to guide some of your training, as mentioned by Bgoetz above.

Well put. That's the big key to doing well in races, in my opinion. Repeated high-level efforts and then being able to recover and do it again, over and over and over. Incorporating workouts like that in your training is precisely what specificity is.

With that said, if you follow traditional periodization then that specificity will be less early on and more later on as you move from general fitness to specific. And if you're pushing the limits of what your body is able to handle and recover from, a high dose of that high-end work will only be sustainable for a specific amount of time before regression, burnout, overtraining, etc. occur.

Knowing ftp can help shore up that higher-end aerobic fitness by allowing more specific work to be done at threshold without too much overreaching. Early on that's important because it's more general fitness that you can build on week by week. Later on it can be useful for rebuilding that earlier base that becomes eroded throughout the race season due to the increased frequency of high-end efforts and the necessary recovery that accompanies that. Especially if you're looking for a two-peak season. Revisiting that longer, higher-end aerobic work can be a big boon for a late season peak.

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by WillemJM
We don't really know who you are young man, a handle only and no location?

So as I don't know where you live I can't challenge you for a ride?

We all love this sport and put a lot of time into it, it takes a lot of discipline, time, perseverance and effort. Generally all cyclists are good great people!

So, here is both a challenge and a hand of friendship extended.

If you can respect others opinions, voice your own and have an intellectual debate, why don't we talk about our different opinions, get some from others and try and add value to the board with mutual respect?

I don't respect your opinion because it's founded on your own imagination. As I mentioned before, you're the guy throwing out advice like "increase your cadence and improve your power output by 10%".

That's absurd.

And until you can actually read what's written and respond accordingly, there simply is no debate to be had. I don't know if you are genuinely misreading things or simply so enamored with this delusion of knowledge that you respond to things you think people are saying, but both are a waste of time.

 

[bgoetz]

Needmoreair, what team do you race with? Perhaps we have crossed paths at some point.

 

[bgoetz]

All good advice here, basically FTP is a single gauge of relative fitness, but by no means the end all be all. I regularly get the sh!t kicked out of me in some super fast technical crits by guys who I am certain have a lower watt/kg FTP