What is Quackery?



"George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "John 'the Man'" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Once upon a time, our fellow George Conklin
> > rambled on about "Re: What is Quackery?."
> > Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
> >
> > > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for reasons
> unknown
> >
> > The reason is quite well known.
> >
> > Conventional medicine has historically had a marked preference for
> > heroic medicine. Heroic medicine is any medicine or method of
> > treatment that makes people suffer, get sick, get weak and run down,
> > and die.
> >
> > Just thought that you might want to know. :)
>
> The medicalization of society, where active boys become a medical
> diagnosis, is a relatively new thing. It is a very difficult issue
because
> it does suggest that even ordinary behaviors need to be handled as a
medical
> 'problem,' and that we are putting millions of people on drugs to alter
> behavior. When we do that ourselves, as in Rush taking drugs, we call
that
> criminal. But when a MD does that, we call that what? I wonder: heroic?
>

Quackery.

--
Ho hum
Jez
"Few of us can easily surrender our belief that
society must somehow make sense. The thought
that the State has lost its mind and is punishing so
many innocent people is intolerable. And so the
evidence has to be internally denied."
- Arthur Miller
 
"Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a Medline
> > > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific articles on it.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for reasons
> unknown
> > has the opposite effect on the young, is one more example of the war
> against
> > boys.
>
> Actually, George, the effect is the same reagrdless of age, and the
> mechanism of action is on the dopamine uptake system. Time to get updated.


Mark is correct. It's also the same regardless of gender.

Bettina
 
"Jez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:eek:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "Jez" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Really? There's lots of evidence in the published scientific
> literature
> > > > that it does work. Could you kindly show me the evidence
demonstrating
> > > > that it doesn't work, describe the specific flaws in the evidence
> > > > supporting its use, and put together a coherent argument showing
that
> > > > your evidence trumps the existing evidence supporting fluoridation?
> > >
> > > Why bother?
> >
> > Because you made an assertion and if you don't even try to back it up
> > you lose what little credibility you had to begin with?
> >
> > Of course, I suppose a little thing like your credibility means nothing
> > to you, based on your behavior here.
> >
> >
> > > Assholes who want forced medication aren't worth a ****....
> >
> > Tsk, tsk. I love it when you resort to ad hominems. It means you can't
> > deal with me on a rational basis and therefore resort to insults.
> >
> Nah, just boredom.

You mean that rationality bores you?
 
"Jez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:%HUsb.15059$p%[email protected]...
> >
> > "Jez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > > "Jez" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Rich Shewmaker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Water fluoridation has been proved to cause more
> > > > > > > > > caries than it prevents.
> > > > > > > > > Go read up on Basel..Switzerland.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Provide the URL for your assertion.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Am I part of your research team ?
> > > > > > > Google is available to all..........
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Use of the term "has been proved" puts the obligation on YOU to
> > > provide
> > > > > the
> > > > > > source of that proffered proof. Anything you state as a fact
> without
> > > > > citing
> > > > > > your source, we may reasonably presume to have been made up on
the
> > > spot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As for Basel, Switzerland, the cheerleader article echoed all
over
> > the
> > > > > > anti-fluoridation web world is about politics, not science, and
> > proves
> > > > > > nothing about the risk/benefit profile of fluoridation of public
> > water
> > > > > > supplies.
> > > > >
> > > > > The onus is on those who would force un-proven medication upon us
> > > > > to prove it's safety....They have not.
> > > >
> > > > Saying that they have not proven its safety doesn't make it so (no
> > > > matter how much you appear to think otherwise), particularly since
you
> > > > haven't been able to produce even one scientific study supporting
your
> > > > contention that it's unsafe and or ineffective.
> > >
> > > As I said before, do your own research.
> > >
> > > So you'd allow un-proven drugs to be used eh?
> > > Ah..just like Ritalin for kiddies eh......
> >
> > It is probably one of the top five most studied medications. Get a clue.
>
> It has never been approved for use on children.
> Get a clue.

I has been used for decades on children over the agfe od 6,and thus,
'grandfathered' in. However, with its widepsread use, and lack of
*demonstrated* problems, it has been effectively tested beyond that of any
clinical trials.
 
"Jez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a Medline
> > > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific articles on
it.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for reasons
> unknown
> > has the opposite effect on the young, is one more example of the war
> against
> > boys.
>
> Ahh but as long as the studies are done on adults.....
> it PROVES it's safe for kids to use.........
> Great Science eh !!

Are you claiming that it has *never* been studied on kids? Since you do have
a problem answering a direct question. let me help you:

[ ] Yes, I am claiming that it has never been tested on children.
[ ] No, I am not claiming that it has never been tested on children.
 
"Jez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:eek:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "Jez" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > > "Jez" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Rich Shewmaker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Water fluoridation has been proved to cause more
> > > > > > > > > caries than it prevents.
> > > > > > > > > Go read up on Basel..Switzerland.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Provide the URL for your assertion.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Am I part of your research team ?
> > > > > > > Google is available to all..........
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Use of the term "has been proved" puts the obligation on YOU to
> > > provide
> > > > > the
> > > > > > source of that proffered proof. Anything you state as a fact
> without
> > > > > citing
> > > > > > your source, we may reasonably presume to have been made up on
the
> > > spot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As for Basel, Switzerland, the cheerleader article echoed all
over
> the
> > > > > > anti-fluoridation web world is about politics, not science, and
> proves
> > > > > > nothing about the risk/benefit profile of fluoridation of public
> water
> > > > > > supplies.
> > > > >
> > > > > The onus is on those who would force un-proven medication upon us
> > > > > to prove it's safety....They have not.
> > > >
> > > > Saying that they have not proven its safety doesn't make it so (no
> > > > matter how much you appear to think otherwise), particularly since
you
> > > > haven't been able to produce even one scientific study supporting
your
> > > > contention that it's unsafe and or ineffective.
> > >
> > > As I said before, do your own research.
> >
> > Still dodging the question, I see. Well, I'm not surprised.
> >
> >
> > > So you'd allow un-proven drugs to be used eh?
> > > Ah..just like Ritalin for kiddies eh......
> >
> > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a Medline
> > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific articles on it.
>
> It has never been tested or approved for use on Children.
> Yet is handed out like candy these days to the under 18's...........

Can you prove that it is handed out like candy to kids under the age of 18?

> (And someones making a HUGE profit...Quackery or what !!!)

What is so bad about profits?

And, BTW, the newer meds are replacing it.
 
"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a Medline
> > > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific articles on
it.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for reasons
unknown
> > has the opposite effect on the young, is one more example of the war
against
> > boys.
>
> George, I'm not a big fan of Ritalin. However, it clearly does some good
> in select cases. The problem is not the drug per se, but the tendency to
> overuse it because it's easier than behavioral modification, not that it
> doesn't work. My wife, a school psychologist, sees this problem, where
> teachers, rather than working with kids with mild ADD, immediately start
> agitating to have them put on Ritalin.
>
> What I was pointing out was that, contrary to the assertions otherwise,
> Ritalin is a very well-studied drug.

Why is a stimulant a depressant depending on age?
 
"George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:eek:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a
Medline
> > > > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific articles on
> it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for reasons
> unknown
> > > has the opposite effect on the young, is one more example of the war
> against
> > > boys.
> >
> > George, I'm not a big fan of Ritalin. However, it clearly does some good
> > in select cases. The problem is not the drug per se, but the tendency to
> > overuse it because it's easier than behavioral modification, not that it
> > doesn't work. My wife, a school psychologist, sees this problem, where
> > teachers, rather than working with kids with mild ADD, immediately start
> > agitating to have them put on Ritalin.
> >
> > What I was pointing out was that, contrary to the assertions otherwise,
> > Ritalin is a very well-studied drug.
>
> Why is a stimulant a depressant depending on age?

It is not. It acts the same regardless of age, gender, political persuasion,
or whether you eat meat.
 
>
>"George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:eek:[email protected]...
>> > In article <[email protected]>,
>> > "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> > > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > > news:eek:[email protected]...
>> > > >
>> > > > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a
>Medline
>> > > > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific articles on
>> it.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for reasons
>> unknown
>> > > has the opposite effect on the young, is one more example of the war
>> against
>> > > boys.
>> >
>> > George, I'm not a big fan of Ritalin. However, it clearly does some good
>> > in select cases. The problem is not the drug per se, but the tendency to
>> > overuse it because it's easier than behavioral modification, not that it
>> > doesn't work. My wife, a school psychologist, sees this problem, where
>> > teachers, rather than working with kids with mild ADD, immediately start
>> > agitating to have them put on Ritalin.
>> >
>> > What I was pointing out was that, contrary to the assertions otherwise,
>> > Ritalin is a very well-studied drug.
>>
>> Why is a stimulant a depressant depending on age?
>
>It is not. It acts the same regardless of age, gender, political persuasion,
>or whether you eat meat.
>

But it has idiosyncratic effects on those who have been exposed to fluoride,
thimerisol, aspartame, or electro-magnetic radiation.
 
>Subject: Re: What is Quackery?
>From: [email protected] (Bettina)
>Date: 11/14/2003 11:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>"Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:<[email protected]>...
>> "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:eek:[email protected]...
>> > >
>> > > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a Medline
>> > > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific articles on
>it.
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for reasons
>> unknown
>> > has the opposite effect on the young, is one more example of the war
>> against
>> > boys.
>>
>> Actually, George, the effect is the same reagrdless of age, and the
>> mechanism of action is on the dopamine uptake system. Time to get updated.

Actually it is not supposed to be given before age six.

>Mark is correct. It's also the same regardless of gender.
>
>Bettina

Mark is a drug pusher.

Now we know Ritalin is almost as good as Nicotine.

The drug Ritalin has been studied, yes sireee.

Like this:


http://tinyurl.com/uxwu

SFN: Nicotine as Good as Ritalin on Core Measure of Attention
Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder
By Roberta Friedman, PhD

NEW ORLEANS, LA -- November 13, 2003 -- Nicotine serves as well as the
commonly prescribed drug methylphenidate (Ritalin) on measures of motor
inhibition
taken
in teens with attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).

Investigators of a small study presented here November 8th at the Society
for
Neuroscience 33rd Annual Meeting, used the finding to suggest that smoking
in people with ADHD is an attempt at self-medication.

Alexandra Potter, PhD, postdoctoral fellow, Clinical Neuroscience Research
Unit, University of Vermont, Burlington, United States, noted that kids
with
ADHD take up smoking and become hooked at twice the rate of other
adolescents.
"If these findings are substantiated," Dr. Potter said, "these cognitive
improvements may explain the high rates of smoking initiation and
maintenance
in ADHD."

Dr. Potter and colleagues carried out a double-blinded study of 8 teens
ages 13
to 17 years, split equally as to gender. All had ADHD according to
criteriafrom the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th
edition.

Nicotine was delivered by a skin patch. Comparison was to oral Ritalin and a
placebo for both medications. The teens served as their own controls.

Reaction times significantly improved on 2 standard laboratory tasks that
measure inhibition of responding no matter which drug was used. Tests
includedthe Stroop Task, with nicotine significantly decreasing the so-called
Stroop effect (P < .05). Nicotine worked better on this task than did Ritalin.

Another test that highlights the inability of kids with ADHD to inhibit
behavior is the Stop Signal Task, with both drugs showing significant
improvement compared to placebo (P < .01). Accuracy on this test did not
change
due to the drugs, nor did the reaction time, indicating the drugs worked
by specifically changing inhibition and not motor performance per se.

Inability of children to inhibit behavior "is recognized as the core
cognitive defect in ADHD," Dr. Potter said. In fact, the Stop Signal Task
proves so difficult that many with ADHD never are able to reach the 50%
inhibition
criteria that need to be defined by the computer generating the signals.
In essence, they fail the test.

The Stop Signal Task involves hitting a button when an X rather than an O is
presented. Then a sound is presented after the letter, a quarter of the
time, which is a signal not to press. Kids with ADHD have enormous trouble
stopping
themselves from hitting the button anyway. Nicotine reduced the stop
signal
deficit "almost to published norms" for the test, Dr. Potter said.

Co-investigator Paul Newhouse MD, department of psychiatry, University of
Vermont, said, "It was a pretty surprising result that we got such a
strong signal in such a small group [to show the nicotine effect in ADHD]."

Dr. Newhouse added that at least 3 pharmaceutical companies are working on
novel nicotinic agents, and are "thinking of targeting ADHD" with these
investigational drugs.

"We have a saying in the lab about nicotine [as a component of
cigarettes],"Dr. Newhouse added. "'Good drug; bad delivery system.'"

Dr. Newhouse noted that long-term use of nicotine in a patch, by teens,
has not
been studied adequately to determine safety.


[Study Title: Acute nicotine administration improves behavioral inhibition
in adolescents with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Abstract
18.9]


Jan
 
"Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > > > >
> > > > > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a
> Medline
> > > > > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific articles
on
> > it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for reasons
> > unknown
> > > > has the opposite effect on the young, is one more example of the war
> > against
> > > > boys.
> > >
> > > George, I'm not a big fan of Ritalin. However, it clearly does some
good
> > > in select cases. The problem is not the drug per se, but the tendency
to
> > > overuse it because it's easier than behavioral modification, not that
it
> > > doesn't work. My wife, a school psychologist, sees this problem, where
> > > teachers, rather than working with kids with mild ADD, immediately
start
> > > agitating to have them put on Ritalin.
> > >
> > > What I was pointing out was that, contrary to the assertions
otherwise,
> > > Ritalin is a very well-studied drug.
> >
> > Why is a stimulant a depressant depending on age?
>
> It is not. It acts the same regardless of age, gender, political
persuasion,
> or whether you eat meat.
>

Darn, I was hoping it would prove effective against Republicanism.

;o) Rich
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Jez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a Medline
> > > > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific articles on
> it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for reasons
> > unknown
> > > has the opposite effect on the young, is one more example of the war
> > against
> > > boys.
> >
> > Ahh but as long as the studies are done on adults.....
> > it PROVES it's safe for kids to use.........
> > Great Science eh !!
>
> Are you claiming that it has *never* been studied on kids? Since you do have
> a problem answering a direct question. let me help you:
>
> [ ] Yes, I am claiming that it has never been tested on children.
> [ ] No, I am not claiming that it has never been tested on children.

Sadly, it's useless to expect a straight answer from this guy. He hasn't
given one yet that I've seen.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Jez" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:eek:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "Jez" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Really? There's lots of evidence in the published scientific
> literature
> > > > that it does work. Could you kindly show me the evidence demonstrating
> > > > that it doesn't work, describe the specific flaws in the evidence
> > > > supporting its use, and put together a coherent argument showing that
> > > > your evidence trumps the existing evidence supporting fluoridation?
> > >
> > > Why bother?
> >
> > Because you made an assertion and if you don't even try to back it up
> > you lose what little credibility you had to begin with?
> >
> > Of course, I suppose a little thing like your credibility means nothing
> > to you, based on your behavior here.
> >
> >
> > > Assholes who want forced medication aren't worth a ****....
> >
> > Tsk, tsk. I love it when you resort to ad hominems. It means you can't
> > deal with me on a rational basis and therefore resort to insults.
> >
> Nah, just boredom.

If you're so "bored" I have to wonder why you reliably respond to so
many of my posts. You must love boredom. Either that, or you're not as
"bored" as you claim.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Jez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > "Jez" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > > > Assholes who want forced medication aren't worth a ****....
> > >
> > > Tsk, tsk. I love it when you resort to ad hominems. It means you can't
> > > deal with me on a rational basis and therefore resort to insults.
> > >
> > Nah, just boredom.
>
> You mean that rationality bores you?

My guess is that things he can't understand bore him.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
John 'the Man' <[email protected]> wrote:

> Once upon a time, our fellow Orac
> rambled on about "Re: What is Quackery?."
> Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>
> >> “mingled mass of perverse ingenuity, of tinsel erudition, of imbecile
> >> credulity, and of artful misrepresentation.”
>
> >Of course, you can't provide a single example of such a
> >"misrepresentation."
>
> Your posts have the net effect of misrepresenting (ie, ignoring) the
> effectiveness of alternative medicine and therapies.

Please quote a specific post where I have "misrepresented" the
effectiveness of alternative medicine and therapies, tell me how I
"misrepresented" anything, and show me the data to demonstrate it. I'm
not above admitting when I make a mistake--unlike you.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting though. You've yet to show that
you have the capacity for good argumentation using solid evidence. You
prefer argument by assertion, without being bothered to actually present
evidence and logical arguments to support your case.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
John 'the Man' <[email protected]> wrote:

> Once upon a time, our fellow Orac
> rambled on about "Re: What is Quackery?."
> Our champion De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>
> >Ah, yes. Asking for solid evidence that these "alternative therapies"
> >actually do what their proponents (such as you) claim that they do
>
> I gave solid evidence twice for the effectiveness of the 'water cure'
> in treating heart disease. This evidence was met with silence. Once,
> the Geek actually got mad and said what does this have to do with
> anything.
>
> The problem is that you Geeks are behind the times. Time to catch up
> with your colleagues.

Actually, you're behind the times. None of this is anything new to
conventional medicine. What you describe as the "water cure" is nothing
more than a variation on hydrotherapy, which has been practiced in
conventional medicine for a very long time now. You make way too much of
how supposedly "alternative" this. The novelty of the paper you cited is
that it showed objective evidence of efficacy in alleviating the
symptoms of heart failure and suggested a possible physiolgic mechanism.
Yes, I know that discussing physiology is anathema to alties like you,
except when done in a hand-waving, blathering sort of way, but no real
treatment, alternative or conventional, can be understood without
understanding physiology. As the authors themselves said:

"...the blood vessel effects of the warm/cold hydrotherapy are similar
to those of exercise, which is an important part of heart failure
therapy. They [the authors] speculate that the therapy could prove
especially helpful for patients who are unable to exercise."

It's also NOT a "cure." It merely helps symptoms. Come to think of it,
it seems rather hypocritical of alties to be touting things like "the
water cure," which alleviates the symptoms of heart failure without
"curing" it in any way, but then castigating "conventional medicine" for
supposedly "treating only symptoms, rather than the cause, of disease."
But then I guess it's silly of me to expect consistency of standards
from them when judging the effectiveness of alternative versus
conventional therapies.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
 
"Rich Shewmaker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > > "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a
> > Medline
> > > > > > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific
articles
> on
> > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for
reasons
> > > unknown
> > > > > has the opposite effect on the young, is one more example of the
war
> > > against
> > > > > boys.
> > > >
> > > > George, I'm not a big fan of Ritalin. However, it clearly does some
> good
> > > > in select cases. The problem is not the drug per se, but the
tendency
> to
> > > > overuse it because it's easier than behavioral modification, not
that
> it
> > > > doesn't work. My wife, a school psychologist, sees this problem,
where
> > > > teachers, rather than working with kids with mild ADD, immediately
> start
> > > > agitating to have them put on Ritalin.
> > > >
> > > > What I was pointing out was that, contrary to the assertions
> otherwise,
> > > > Ritalin is a very well-studied drug.
> > >
> > > Why is a stimulant a depressant depending on age?
> >
> > It is not. It acts the same regardless of age, gender, political
> persuasion,
> > or whether you eat meat.
> >
>
> Darn, I was hoping it would prove effective against Republicanism.

Well, the cancer study that the antis just love to misquote and misinterpret
also indicates that it may have a protective effect against certain types of
breast tumors.

I should have also mentioned that the nature of the effect on the patient is
the same, whether they have ADHD or not. the only difference is the degree
of the effect.
 
"Bettina" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:eek:[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a
Medline
> > > > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific articles on
it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for reasons
> > unknown
> > > has the opposite effect on the young, is one more example of the war
> > against
> > > boys.
> >
> > Actually, George, the effect is the same reagrdless of age, and the
> > mechanism of action is on the dopamine uptake system. Time to get
updated.
>
>
> Mark is correct. It's also the same regardless of gender.

Thank you Bettina. Be prepared to be attacked by Jan, whose reply to your
post I have not yet read. She considers it blasphemy to point out when I am
right wrt to ADHD and MPH. You see I have personal experience with a 20 year
old son who was dx'd when he was 5, and was on meds from then on. She
allegedly ran a nursery school.
 
"Jan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Subject: Re: What is Quackery?
> >From: [email protected] (Bettina)
> >Date: 11/14/2003 11:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <[email protected]>
> >
> >"Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:<[email protected]>...
> >> "George Conklin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> >
> >> > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > news:eek:[email protected]...
> >> > >
> >> > > Ritalin is one of the most studied drugs there is. Try doing a
Medline
> >> > > search on it sometime. There are thousands of scientific articles
on
> >it.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Drugging millions of children with a stimulant, which for reasons
> >> unknown
> >> > has the opposite effect on the young, is one more example of the war
> >> against
> >> > boys.
> >>
> >> Actually, George, the effect is the same reagrdless of age, and the
> >> mechanism of action is on the dopamine uptake system. Time to get
updated.
>
> Actually it is not supposed to be given before age six.
>
> >Mark is correct. It's also the same regardless of gender.
> >
> >Bettina
>
> Mark is a drug pusher.

Nope. I am a "proper treatment pusher" for real diseases and disroders which
alternative medicine shills like yourself deny.

> Now we know Ritalin is almost as good as Nicotine.

Well, let's see...do you know if nicotine or a derivative has any proper
medicinal use? Remember, it is "all natural" and comes from a plant. Sounds
alternative to me.


> The drug Ritalin has been studied, yes sireee.

The fact is, which you deny, it has been. At least 3000 studies.

> Like this:
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/uxwu
>
> SFN: Nicotine as Good as Ritalin on Core Measure of Attention
> Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder
> By Roberta Friedman, PhD
>
> NEW ORLEANS, LA -- November 13, 2003 -- Nicotine serves as well as the
> commonly prescribed drug methylphenidate (Ritalin) on measures of motor
> inhibition
> taken
> in teens with attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).
>
> Investigators of a small study presented here November 8th at the Society
> for
> Neuroscience 33rd Annual Meeting, used the finding to suggest that smoking
> in people with ADHD is an attempt at self-medication.
>
> Alexandra Potter, PhD, postdoctoral fellow, Clinical Neuroscience Research
> Unit, University of Vermont, Burlington, United States, noted that kids
> with
> ADHD take up smoking and become hooked at twice the rate of other
> adolescents.
> "If these findings are substantiated," Dr. Potter said, "these cognitive
> improvements may explain the high rates of smoking initiation and
> maintenance
> in ADHD."
>
> Dr. Potter and colleagues carried out a double-blinded study of 8 teens
> ages 13
> to 17 years, split equally as to gender. All had ADHD according to
> criteriafrom the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders,
4th
> edition.
>
> Nicotine was delivered by a skin patch. Comparison was to oral Ritalin and
a
> placebo for both medications. The teens served as their own controls.
>
> Reaction times significantly improved on 2 standard laboratory tasks that
> measure inhibition of responding no matter which drug was used. Tests
> includedthe Stroop Task, with nicotine significantly decreasing the
so-called
> Stroop effect (P < .05). Nicotine worked better on this task than did
Ritalin.
>
> Another test that highlights the inability of kids with ADHD to inhibit
> behavior is the Stop Signal Task, with both drugs showing significant
> improvement compared to placebo (P < .01). Accuracy on this test did not
> change
> due to the drugs, nor did the reaction time, indicating the drugs worked
> by specifically changing inhibition and not motor performance per se.
>
> Inability of children to inhibit behavior "is recognized as the core
> cognitive defect in ADHD," Dr. Potter said. In fact, the Stop Signal Task
> proves so difficult that many with ADHD never are able to reach the 50%
> inhibition
> criteria that need to be defined by the computer generating the signals.
> In essence, they fail the test.
>
> The Stop Signal Task involves hitting a button when an X rather than an O
is
> presented. Then a sound is presented after the letter, a quarter of the
> time, which is a signal not to press. Kids with ADHD have enormous trouble
> stopping
> themselves from hitting the button anyway. Nicotine reduced the stop
> signal
> deficit "almost to published norms" for the test, Dr. Potter said.
>
> Co-investigator Paul Newhouse MD, department of psychiatry, University of
> Vermont, said, "It was a pretty surprising result that we got such a
> strong signal in such a small group [to show the nicotine effect in
ADHD]."
>
> Dr. Newhouse added that at least 3 pharmaceutical companies are working on
> novel nicotinic agents, and are "thinking of targeting ADHD" with these
> investigational drugs.
>
> "We have a saying in the lab about nicotine [as a component of
> cigarettes],"Dr. Newhouse added. "'Good drug; bad delivery system.'"
>
> Dr. Newhouse noted that long-term use of nicotine in a patch, by teens,
> has not
> been studied adequately to determine safety.
>
>
> [Study Title: Acute nicotine administration improves behavioral inhibition
> in adolescents with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).
Abstract
> 18.9]


So, taking nicotine is as effective as MPH. Good.

(I bet the Janster thinks nicotine, when taken as a medicine, and not as
part of a cigarette, causes cancer, etc.)
 
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