What is the deal with altitude tents?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Chris, Jul 1, 2004.

  1. Chris

    Chris Guest

    The last time I saw a public discussion, the attitude seemed to be that
    these tents are controversial and cutting edge but now that the top athletes
    are keeping quiet about them, people seem to think they are not in use.
    Wrong, they are more popular than ever as prices drop and used tents become
    available every time an elite athlete or team upgrades to the latest models.

    How do you folks feel about these things? When used correctly, they offer
    better improvement than traveling and obviously a lot more flexibility in
    where and how the athlete trains. It seems also that these tents offer
    better performance improvement than any blood doping that is detectable
    (IOW, when you need to pass the health checks for HCT levels). Why guys like
    Millar are using EPO is beyond me, but I guess that shows just how smart he
    and his management team are. I also wonder why some of you act like blood
    doping that passes the HCT level test can offer so much improvement that it
    nullifies the results. I say that no rule should be passed that is not
    enforceable. If there is no detection method, why pass a rule or a law? The
    50% limit took care of the real insanity and the tents allow either
    compareable or superior results (depending on who you ask) for oxygen
    transport (the normal objective of blood doping) so why run around all over
    the globe chasing "criminals" whose main crime is laziness and or stupidity.
     
    Tags:


  2. warren

    warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Chris
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > The last time I saw a public discussion, the attitude seemed to be that
    > these tents are controversial and cutting edge but now that the top athletes
    > are keeping quiet about them, people seem to think they are not in use.


    Really? Which people?

    > When used correctly, they offer
    > better improvement than traveling and obviously a lot more flexibility in
    > where and how the athlete trains. It seems also that these tents offer
    > better performance improvement than any blood doping that is detectable


    How do you know this?

    > (IOW, when you need to pass the health checks for HCT levels). Why guys like
    > Millar are using EPO is beyond me, but I guess that shows just how smart he
    > and his management team are.


    You're assuming EPO's benefits for an athlete can be found elsewhere.
    How do you know this?

    Ullrich has been doing interval training inside a pressure chamber.
    Others train at altitude for weeks before big events.

    I'm sure the pros and their doctors/advisors are not sharing all of
    their successful methods with the public.

    -WG
     
  3. In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    >The last time I saw a public discussion, the attitude seemed to be that
    >these tents are controversial and cutting edge but now that the top athletes
    >are keeping quiet about them, people seem to think they are not in use.
    >Wrong, they are more popular than ever as prices drop and used tents become
    >available every time an elite athlete or team upgrades to the latest models.


    Controversial? Since when? There are a perfectly legal way to improve
    your fitness. It is common knowledge they are use by many top athletes.
    where have you been hiding?
    ---------------
    Alex
     
  4. They are a great way to explain away elevated hemocrit levels obtained through
    other means.

    And NO, they do NOT remotely equal EPO or other drug usage in terms of
    effectiveness. People have been training at altitude (or living high and
    training low) for decades. Simply look at the WRs in distance running over the
    past 10-12 years or so to convince yourself that the results are simply NOT
    comparable...

    "It was the greatest hoax that has ever been perpetrated."
    Richard M. Nixon, discussing the Warren Commission Report, May 15, 1972
    " [It] is the most bizarre conspiracy in the history of the world. It'll come
    out at a future date."
    Jack Ruby
     
  5. Engorged With Blood wrote:

    > They are a great way to explain away elevated hemocrit levels obtained through
    > other means.
    >
    > And NO, they do NOT remotely equal EPO or other drug usage in terms of
    > effectiveness. People have been training at altitude (or living high and
    > training low) for decades. Simply look at the WRs in distance running over the
    > past 10-12 years or so to convince yourself that the results are simply NOT
    > comparable...


    The men's 10K, women's 5K and Man vs Horse running records all went
    within a month of each other this year. What are you trying to indicate?
     
  6. >From: Stewart Fleming [email protected]
    >Date: 7/1/2004 10:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time


    >
    >Engorged With Blood wrote:
    >
    >> They are a great way to explain away elevated hemocrit levels obtained

    >through
    >> other means.
    >>
    >> And NO, they do NOT remotely equal EPO or other drug usage in terms of
    >> effectiveness. People have been training at altitude (or living high and
    >> training low) for decades. Simply look at the WRs in distance running over

    >the
    >> past 10-12 years or so to convince yourself that the results are simply NOT
    >> comparable...

    >
    >The men's 10K, women's 5K and Man vs Horse running records all went
    >within a month of each other this year. What are you trying to indicate?
    >


    The horse was obviously NOT on EPO!

    ;)


    "It was the greatest hoax that has ever been perpetrated."
    Richard M. Nixon, discussing the Warren Commission Report, May 15, 1972
    " [It] is the most bizarre conspiracy in the history of the world. It'll come
    out at a future date."
    Jack Ruby
     
  7. Steven

    Steven Guest

    [email protected]sduj992 (Engorged With Blood) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > >From: Stewart Fleming [email protected]
    > >Date: 7/1/2004 10:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time

    >
    > >
    > >Engorged With Blood wrote:
    > >
    > >> They are a great way to explain away elevated hemocrit levels obtained

    > through
    > >> other means.
    > >>
    > >> And NO, they do NOT remotely equal EPO or other drug usage in terms of
    > >> effectiveness. People have been training at altitude (or living high and
    > >> training low) for decades. Simply look at the WRs in distance running over

    > the
    > >> past 10-12 years or so to convince yourself that the results are simply NOT
    > >> comparable...

    > >
    > >The men's 10K, women's 5K and Man vs Horse running records all went
    > >within a month of each other this year. What are you trying to indicate?
    > >

    >
    > The horse was obviously NOT on EPO!
    >
    > ;)
    >
    >
    > "It was the greatest hoax that has ever been perpetrated."
    > Richard M. Nixon, discussing the Warren Commission Report, May 15, 1972
    > " [It] is the most bizarre conspiracy in the history of the world. It'll come
    > out at a future date."
    > Jack Ruby



    I beg to differ. If any "athletes" are doped to the gills it is
    Horses...Those poor things are a walking pharmaceutical lab. My guess
    is the horse was full of drugs just not very talented.

    Just a little tidbit of trivia. I good Vet can make 1 million a year
    taking care of a single horse...Also, if you ever get a chance to see
    a horse treadmill take it. truely an amazing thing to see. A thurough
    bred galloping a 25 miles and hour while you are inches from him, but
    I digress.
     
  8. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > How do you folks feel about these things?


    I'm ambivalent about mine. :)

    > When used correctly, they offer
    > better improvement than traveling and obviously a lot more flexibility in
    > where and how the athlete trains.


    Flexibility, yes. But better than spending time at actual altitude? I have
    my doubts.

    > It seems also that these tents offer
    > better performance improvement than any blood doping that is detectable
    > (IOW, when you need to pass the health checks for HCT levels).


    No way - at *best*, you might push your hematocrit as close to the limit
    using a tent as injecting EPO, but I think it is unlikely. Furthermore, it
    comes at greater cost, in terms of physiological stress.

    > Why guys like
    > Millar are using EPO is beyond me


    Because it is easy and effective - it's just illegal and potentially
    dangerous.

    >, but I guess that shows just how smart he
    > and his management team are.


    Yeah, real smart: while your team is under investigation, you keep evidence
    of your actions in your apartment, just waiting to be found during the
    inevitable search.

    > I also wonder why some of you act like blood
    > doping that passes the HCT level test can offer so much improvement that

    it
    > nullifies the results.


    I'm not sure what you mean by this statement - but blood doping is just as
    effective as using EPO.

    > I say that no rule should be passed that is not
    > enforceable. If there is no detection method, why pass a rule or a law?

    The
    > 50% limit took care of the real insanity and the tents allow either
    > compareable or superior results (depending on who you ask) for oxygen
    > transport (the normal objective of blood doping) so why run around all

    over
    > the globe chasing "criminals" whose main crime is laziness and or

    stupidity.

    Because tents in no way reproduce the effects of EPO.

    Andy Coggan
     
  9. Chris

    Chris Guest

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    > > How do you folks feel about these things?

    >
    > I'm ambivalent about mine. :)
    >
    > > When used correctly, they offer
    > > better improvement than traveling and obviously a lot more flexibility

    in
    > > where and how the athlete trains.

    >
    > Flexibility, yes. But better than spending time at actual altitude? I have
    > my doubts.


    I would assume it is better because you can control the intervals precisely.
    I suppose if an athlete had the option of spending 8 hours a day at precise
    altitudes and then was shuttled down to train at the proscribed altitude
    that his protocols called for then maybe that would be better but that
    sounds even more stressfull than the tent. I guess the real elite athletes
    have their homes modified so that their bedroom serves as the "chamber" and
    then they only need the tent while on the road.


    > > It seems also that these tents offer
    > > better performance improvement than any blood doping that is detectable
    > > (IOW, when you need to pass the health checks for HCT levels).

    >
    > No way - at *best*, you might push your hematocrit as close to the limit
    > using a tent as injecting EPO, but I think it is unlikely. Furthermore, it
    > comes at greater cost, in terms of physiological stress.


    What about the claims that altitude protocols result in more blood volume
    rather than simply increasing RBC production?

    >
    > > Why guys like
    > > Millar are using EPO is beyond me

    >
    > Because it is easy and effective - it's just illegal and potentially
    > dangerous.


    Well, in retrospect it seems rather risky to one's reputation. After what
    happened in the late 90s how can any athlete be comfortable with that risk?

    > >, but I guess that shows just how smart he
    > > and his management team are.

    >
    > Yeah, real smart: while your team is under investigation, you keep

    evidence
    > of your actions in your apartment, just waiting to be found during the
    > inevitable search.


    Yep, just that smart.


    > > I also wonder why some of you act like blood
    > > doping that passes the HCT level test can offer so much improvement that

    > it
    > > nullifies the results.

    >
    > I'm not sure what you mean by this statement - but blood doping is just as
    > effective as using EPO.


    I mean that EPO is alleged by some to offer such a radical boost in
    performance that no "clean" athlete can hope to win against an EPO doped
    athlete even though alternatives like the tent exist. When doped athletes
    win races, the critics claim the results are "fake". Do you now understand
    what I am saying? My claim is that these dopers still have to work damn hard
    and could have and should have been able to get the same results legally.
    Therefore the fact that racers are getting away with winning because they
    are not caught does not IMO mean that the results are "fake" somehow.

    > > I say that no rule should be passed that is not
    > > enforceable. If there is no detection method, why pass a rule or a law?

    > The
    > > 50% limit took care of the real insanity and the tents allow either
    > > compareable or superior results (depending on who you ask) for oxygen
    > > transport (the normal objective of blood doping) so why run around all

    > over
    > > the globe chasing "criminals" whose main crime is laziness and or

    > stupidity.


    Precisely my point.

    >
    > Because tents in no way reproduce the effects of EPO.


    You seem to be contradicting yourself. Or maybe you realize that reproducing
    the precise effects of EPO is not desirable?

    >
    > Andy Coggan
    >
    >
     
  10. Roadie_scum

    Roadie_scum Guest

    The Australian Institute of Sport has conducted research into the
    effects of training at altitude including monitoring improvements and
    blood markers. They have also researched the effects of EPO in their
    attempts to develop more accurate blood tests. They found a
    significantly larger improvement with EPO than altitude training. They
    also found that altitude training didn't lead to rises in Haematocrit or
    Haemoglobin.



    --
     
  11. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Roadie_scum" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > The Australian Institute of Sport has conducted research into the
    > effects of training at altitude including monitoring improvements and
    > blood markers. They have also researched the effects of EPO in their
    > attempts to develop more accurate blood tests. They found a
    > significantly larger improvement with EPO than altitude training. They
    > also found that altitude training didn't lead to rises in Haematocrit or
    > Haemoglobin.


    Then they weren't doing it correctly since any medical book will tell you
    that it does.

    Since altitude training can increase your hematocrit and since the UCI limit
    is 50% for normal people, you can't get a "larger improvement with EPO" than
    with altitude training.

    What EPO does do is increase your hematocrit very rapidly, in about 5 days,
    for no effort on the part of the lazy rider.
     
  12. alex

    alex Guest

    Maybe the Australian insitute of Sport should contact Jan Ullrich and pass
    him the info. There is an article in the Tour magazine (german) about Jan's
    new "Altitude" room installed in his own house. Apparently Jan has spent a
    few thousand Euro in the construction and the supervisory services by one of
    the top experts on altitude training in Germany. They even make mention the
    oxigene levels in the room (If I remember correctly 17%) and how everything
    is monitored for safety.

    "Roadie_scum" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > The Australian Institute of Sport has conducted research into the
    > effects of training at altitude including monitoring improvements and
    > blood markers. They have also researched the effects of EPO in their
    > attempts to develop more accurate blood tests. They found a
    > significantly larger improvement with EPO than altitude training. They
    > also found that altitude training didn't lead to rises in Haematocrit or
    > Haemoglobin.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    >
     
  13. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > > > How do you folks feel about these things?

    > >
    > > I'm ambivalent about mine. :)
    > >
    > > > When used correctly, they offer
    > > > better improvement than traveling and obviously a lot more flexibility

    > in
    > > > where and how the athlete trains.

    > >
    > > Flexibility, yes. But better than spending time at actual altitude? I

    have
    > > my doubts.

    >
    > I would assume it is better because you can control the intervals

    precisely.
    > I suppose if an athlete had the option of spending 8 hours a day at

    precise
    > altitudes and then was shuttled down to train at the proscribed altitude
    > that his protocols called for then maybe that would be better but that
    > sounds even more stressfull than the tent.


    But what if just 8 h/d isn't enough? Do you want to spend every minute you
    aren't training cooped up in the same tent/room/apartment/dormitory?

    > > > It seems also that these tents offer
    > > > better performance improvement than any blood doping that is

    detectable
    > > > (IOW, when you need to pass the health checks for HCT levels).

    > >
    > > No way - at *best*, you might push your hematocrit as close to the limit
    > > using a tent as injecting EPO, but I think it is unlikely. Furthermore,

    it
    > > comes at greater cost, in terms of physiological stress.

    >
    > What about the claims that altitude protocols result in more blood volume
    > rather than simply increasing RBC production?


    Bogus: plasma volume *decreases* upon ascent to altitude, and only after
    many months is total blood volume restored to normal via an increaes in red
    cell volume (mass).

    > > > I also wonder why some of you act like blood
    > > > doping that passes the HCT level test can offer so much improvement

    that
    > > it
    > > > nullifies the results.

    > >
    > > I'm not sure what you mean by this statement - but blood doping is just

    as
    > > effective as using EPO.

    >
    > I mean that EPO is alleged by some to offer such a radical boost in
    > performance that no "clean" athlete can hope to win against an EPO doped
    > athlete even though alternatives like the tent exist. When doped athletes
    > win races, the critics claim the results are "fake". Do you now understand
    > what I am saying?


    Yes - it was your switch from talking about EPO to blood doping that created
    the confusion.

    As for the first part, at the very least giving somebody an automatic 5%
    advantage makes it difficult to beat them.

    > You seem to be contradicting yourself. Or maybe you realize that

    reproducing
    > the precise effects of EPO is not desirable?


    I don't think so: my position is that, theory/ethical arguments totally
    aside, altitude tents are not *quantitatively* comparable to EPO or blood
    doping, so it's silly to even bring them all into the same discussion.

    Andy Coggan
     
  14. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Maybe the Australian insitute of Sport should contact Jan Ullrich and pass
    > him the info. There is an article in the Tour magazine (german) about

    Jan's
    > new "Altitude" room installed in his own house. Apparently Jan has spent a
    > few thousand Euro in the construction and the supervisory services by one

    of
    > the top experts on altitude training in Germany. They even make mention

    the
    > oxigene levels in the room (If I remember correctly 17%) and how

    everything
    > is monitored for safety.


    I'd take the word of the AIS's experts over Ullrich's. (Not that you're even
    comparing apples-to-apples, anyway: training at simulated altitude is not
    the same as sleeping at simulated altitude.)

    Andy Coggan (who currently trains breathing 14.8% O2 several hours per week)
     
  15. alex

    alex Guest

    Just to complete the info about the article on Jan's altitude room.

    The article suggests that the room so conditioned was his training room. I
    just checked the article and the correct value for the Oxigene levels
    mentioned for Jan's room are 15%. The name of the expert mentioned in the
    article is Volker Spiegel (no mention about his credentials). Apparently Jan
    has been following his advice regarding altitude trainning for the last 2
    years.

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > Maybe the Australian insitute of Sport should contact Jan Ullrich and

    pass
    > > him the info. There is an article in the Tour magazine (german) about

    > Jan's
    > > new "Altitude" room installed in his own house. Apparently Jan has spent

    a
    > > few thousand Euro in the construction and the supervisory services by

    one
    > of
    > > the top experts on altitude training in Germany. They even make mention

    > the
    > > oxigene levels in the room (If I remember correctly 17%) and how

    > everything
    > > is monitored for safety.

    >
    > I'd take the word of the AIS's experts over Ullrich's. (Not that you're

    even
    > comparing apples-to-apples, anyway: training at simulated altitude is not
    > the same as sleeping at simulated altitude.)
    >
    > Andy Coggan (who currently trains breathing 14.8% O2 several hours per

    week)
    >
    >
     
  16. Kyle Legate

    Kyle Legate Guest

    "alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Just to complete the info about the article on Jan's altitude room.
    >
    > The article suggests that the room so conditioned was his training room. I
    > just checked the article and the correct value for the Oxigene levels
    > mentioned for Jan's room are 15%.
    >

    Are you suggesting what I think you're suggesting?

    http://www.oxigene.com/home.asp?sf=f
     
  17. Sam

    Sam Guest

    The problem is that TRAINING at altitude (in hypoxia) has not been shown to
    be beneficial for sea level performance. It might be suitable for getting
    ready for competition at altitude. Say someone living in Missouri getting
    ready for a competition on Colorado might be well-served by some training in
    hypoxia.

    Jan has it backwards.


    "alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Just to complete the info about the article on Jan's altitude room.
    >
    > The article suggests that the room so conditioned was his training room. I
    > just checked the article and the correct value for the Oxigene levels
    > mentioned for Jan's room are 15%. The name of the expert mentioned in

    the
    > article is Volker Spiegel (no mention about his credentials). Apparently

    Jan
    > has been following his advice regarding altitude trainning for the last 2
    > years.
    >
    > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > Maybe the Australian insitute of Sport should contact Jan Ullrich and

    > pass
    > > > him the info. There is an article in the Tour magazine (german) about

    > > Jan's
    > > > new "Altitude" room installed in his own house. Apparently Jan has

    spent
    > a
    > > > few thousand Euro in the construction and the supervisory services by

    > one
    > > of
    > > > the top experts on altitude training in Germany. They even make

    mention
    > > the
    > > > oxigene levels in the room (If I remember correctly 17%) and how

    > > everything
    > > > is monitored for safety.

    > >
    > > I'd take the word of the AIS's experts over Ullrich's. (Not that you're

    > even
    > > comparing apples-to-apples, anyway: training at simulated altitude is

    not
    > > the same as sleeping at simulated altitude.)
    > >
    > > Andy Coggan (who currently trains breathing 14.8% O2 several hours per

    > week)
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
  18. warren

    warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Sam
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > The problem is that TRAINING at altitude (in hypoxia) has not been shown to
    > be beneficial for sea level performance. It might be suitable for getting
    > ready for competition at altitude. Say someone living in Missouri getting
    > ready for a competition on Colorado might be well-served by some training in
    > hypoxia.
    >
    > Jan has it backwards.


    The Tour requires some racing at altitude.

    -WG
     
  19. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Sam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > The problem is that TRAINING at altitude (in hypoxia) has not been shown

    to
    > be beneficial for sea level performance.


    I wonder if anyone ever told that to Ned Overend?
     
  20. Sam

    Sam Guest

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:030720041744487132%[email protected]
    > In article <[email protected]>, Sam
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > The problem is that TRAINING at altitude (in hypoxia) has not been shown

    to
    > > be beneficial for sea level performance. It might be suitable for

    getting
    > > ready for competition at altitude. Say someone living in Missouri

    getting
    > > ready for a competition on Colorado might be well-served by some

    training in
    > > hypoxia.
    > >
    > > Jan has it backwards.

    >
    > The Tour requires some racing at altitude.
    >
    > -WG


    Very little in terms of overall time.
     
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