What is the fastest bike in the shop?



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This is something I have noticed on group rides. My lowracer seems slower on hills than the uprights
I am riding with. However I am convinced this is mostly due to differences in fittness levels. I
will usually ride with a moderately fast group if any group. This group I believe is in considerably
better shape than I am. The aero advantage allows me to easily keep pace on the flats and blow by
them down hills but up hills I lose that advantage. I am stuck trying to haul my overweight self up
the hill. Because I am much heavier (and more overweight) than most people I ride with and my bike
is also heavier, I lose ground. If I had the fittness level of the front runners I have no doubt I
could easily lead the pack for the entire ride.

Derek, The riding position of the Baron is much different than performance uprights, so the muscles
used are not identical and your fittness will not directly translate. Also you are correct that in
the mountains bents lose thier performance advantage because you combine long climbs (weight
dissadvantage bent) with high speed decents that require brakes to maintain control even on
uprights. In flat to rolling hills like most places in the Midwest and Atlantic coastal areas a
moderately fit person will spend more time at speeds where a performance bent is an advantage.

Craig Optima Baron

"Tom Blum" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Derek says lowracer not much faster than C4 Joker.
>
> This mirrors my experience also.
>
> Bob Bryant, RCN, says it best in the Bacchetta issue. http://www.recumbentcyclistnews.com/ to
> paraphrase: "Uprights are better at going slow". He than goes into the math of it. The time spent
> slaving up the hill is not made up by the speed tearing down the other side. Certainly, in
> Northern Ca, the hills are tremendous. Remember, mountain Bikes were invented in Marin county
> (sp??) Could it be they have mountains there???
>
> Obviously, stronger riders have less penalty going up, to the point that someone on a unicycle,
> dragging a bowling ball might be faster than Derek on his Joker Carbon.
>
> With all else equal, I can't argue with Derek's statement.
>
> But bents ARE fun for the comfort and shock value they have.
>
> AND, try to hang a tailbox on an upright. Coming soon: TEBCO Tailbox V1.0.
>
>
> --
> Miles of Smiles,
>
> Tom Blum Winter Haven, Florida (remove "nospam" to reply) Homebuilts: SWB Tour Easy Clone Speed
> Machine Clone
>
> www.gate.net/~teblum
 
"derek" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Windy City Rider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > The speed difference between a lowracer and a quality upright is really
> not
> > > so much, even on the flats. Add to that the lower visibility /safety factors and relative
> > > difficulty climbing hills together with the
> inability
> > > to paceline with your riding buddies and you can see why lowracer's are
> not
> > > a commercial success. They ARE fun to ride though.
> > >
> > > Cheers, Derek
> >
> > Derek you are entitled to your opinoins. But no offense, you've got the "speed difference" part
> > wrong. If you doubt me, check my results on www.wisil.recumbents.com next weekend for the 2003
> > Major Taylor Indiannapolis HPRA race. If you still doubt me, bring whatever "quality" upright
> > you can get your hands on to Chicago, at your convenience, and I will enthusiastically school
> > you in lowracer "speed differences". All of this will take place on a rolling-to-hilly course
> > BTW, so your "quality upright" will have the alleged advantage.
> >
> > Last weekend, Ed Gin, Gary Toy, Larry Zegner and myself held a lowracer paceline for some 50
> > miles before we individually broke off to slow down and socialize with the women, fast roadies
> > and one strong MTB guy beating up on the roadies as well. So in effect, yes we can maintain
> > pacelines ;-).
> >
> > All fun and schooling aside, I see your point. From a roadie's uneducated perspective, a
> > lowracer is a stretch at best. It will take a good deal of time for the plattform to gain any
> > acceptance, if there is any to be gained at all. No big deal to me, I'll ride on.
> >
> > -"Windy City" Keith

Derek writes:

"Add to that the lower visibility /safety factors"

That seems a very silly thing write. I guess your saying that the lower profile of a recumbent makes
it less visible? That's ridiculous. One complaint I have with my 'bent is that riding it around town
is like driving the Easter float, it's anything but inconspicuous. I ride across town on my wedgie
and no one, drivers, peds, friends, no one, sees me at all.

I'm not sure what "safety factors" you're referring to. The ability to be pitched over the
handlebars?
 
Smitty,

It's not silly at all. Lowracers are so low that they are harder to see by motorists. I wear
screaming green jerseys and velcro a day-glow orange coroplast triangle to the Barons seat back. It
has worked well so far, and I feel safe enough on the road except for high traffic situations.
Smitty, do you ride a lowracer or are you just making up your opinion based on your experience with
some other kind of bent that has a higher riding position?

What I was mainly referring about safety issues is:

1) If some cell phone yakking motorist turns in front of you and you collide, you are almost certain
to be toast because you will end up under the vehicle. Here is a near miss account of such an
accident http://www.halcyon.com/peterson/crash.htm , fortunately the victim lived to tell of it.

2) Because of the extreme laid back position of lowracers, CYCLIST can have line of sight problems,
particularly at stop signs or other intersections. Blowing a stop sign on a lowracer is shear
folly for this reason. Clearing an intersection on a lowracer can be problematic because
accelleration from a stop is inferior to upright bikes. On the plus side, it is possible to stay
clipped in and merely put a hand down at stop signs, so overall it's not a big problem once you
gain experience.
 
[email protected] (cbb) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>> brakes to maintain control even on uprights. In flat to rolling
hills
> like most places in the Midwest and Atlantic coastal areas a moderately fit person will spend more
> time at speeds where a performance bent is an advantage.

I would agree with Craig. As I have said before, I know that I am fastest, on my Baron, on rolling
terrain. Faster even than on long, straight flats. On rolling terrain, I can build speed on the
downgrades and can maintain most of this speed by powering up the short rollers. Riding in this
manner, on gentle rollers, lets you have quick recovery periods on the downgrades between hammering
the inclines. Kind of like doing natural intervals. If one has pretty good aerobic fitness, which I
work hard to maintain, they can easily outpace most DF riders in this type of rolling terrain. At
least I do her in Central Illinois, on the rides I do.

Harry Jiles
 
harryo wrote:
>
> [email protected] (cbb) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> >> brakes to maintain control even on uprights. In flat to rolling
> hills
> > like most places in the Midwest and Atlantic coastal areas a moderately fit person will spend
> > more time at speeds where a performance bent is an advantage.
>
> I would agree with Craig. As I have said before, I know that I am fastest, on my Baron, on rolling
> terrain. Faster even than on long, straight flats. On rolling terrain, I can build speed on the
> downgrades and can maintain most of this speed by powering up the short rollers. Riding in this
> manner, on gentle rollers, lets you have quick recovery periods on the downgrades between
> hammering the inclines. Kind of like doing natural intervals. If one has pretty good aerobic
> fitness, which I work hard to maintain, they can easily outpace most DF riders in this type of
> rolling terrain. At least I do her in Central Illinois, on the rides I do.

Harry,

Of course it is often quite windy in Illinois, especially in the spring when there is no corn to act
as a windbreak. This will provide an additional advantage to a lowracer rider.

P.S. Are you planning to make it to either Macomb on Saturday or Havana on Sunday?

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
I don't think lowracers are harder to see where there is a clear line of sight. The problem is in
city traffic where lowracers can more easily hide behind cars than higher cycles. Parallel parked
cars are of particular concern to me as are intersections with left hand turn lanes. I am much more
cautious in such conditions and will usually "take the lane" to improve my visibility. I find that
after a year of riding my Baron I am faster at acceleration across intersections than I ever was on
an upright or my BikeE. I can stay clipped in and when I see an opening I can quickly accelerate
without trying to find the
clip. This was not true for the first few months as I was not comfortable enough with my balance to
stop with only a hand down. Craig Optima Baron

"Derek" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Smitty,
>
> It's not silly at all. Lowracers are so low that they are harder to see by motorists. I wear
> screaming green jerseys and velcro a day-glow orange coroplast triangle to the Barons seat back.
> It has worked well so far, and I feel safe enough on the road except for high traffic situations.
> Smitty, do you ride a lowracer or are you just making up your opinion based on your experience
> with some other kind of bent that has a higher riding position?
>
> What I was mainly referring about safety issues is:
>
> 1) If some cell phone yakking motorist turns in front of you and you collide, you are almost
> certain to be toast because you will end up under the vehicle. Here is a near miss account of
> such an accident http://www.halcyon.com/peterson/crash.htm , fortunately the victim lived to
> tell of it.
>
> 2) Because of the extreme laid back position of lowracers, CYCLIST can have line of sight
> problems, particularly at stop signs or other intersections. Blowing a stop sign on a lowracer
> is shear folly for this reason. Clearing an intersection on a lowracer can be problematic
> because accelleration from a stop is inferior to upright bikes. On the plus side, it is
> possible to stay clipped in and merely put a hand down at stop signs, so overall it's not a big
> problem once you gain experience.
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> P.S. Are you planning to make it to either Macomb on Saturday or Havana on Sunday?

I wish I could, Tom, but right now I am busy with farming and if I get rained out from that, as it
appears might happen, I have to accompany a Boy Scout troop to the Lincoln Pilgrimage, at
Springfield, for the whole weekend. If that does occur, I will be getting some exercise, a 20 mile
hike with a full pack. I do hope to get together for a ride with you sometime soon.

Harry Jiles
 
Derek:

I can agree with you on the visibility issue. I rode a Sunset in downtown Chicago, once. It was an
eye-opening experience (pun intendend). There were some points where my vantage point was
compromised. Likewise, unless I rode vehicularly (took the lane), I was noticed on the second look
for most motorists. Big problem since quite a few motorists will not even take the second look
before stepping on the gas.

My Baron has been modified with a chopped seat, allowing for the most extreme recline possible on
that frame. I have yet to take my Baron dowtown. In addition to the seat, my fairing is so well
fitted that my shoulders are literally "inside" the front opening. I cannot perform the lowracer
handstand with it mounted. The only roads I feel safe on are low density suburbs-to-rural level.

-"Windy City" Keith

> 1) If some cell phone yakking motorist turns in front of you and you collide, you are almost
> certain to be toast because you will end up under the vehicle. Here is a near miss account of
> such an accident http://www.halcyon.com/peterson/crash.htm , fortunately the victim lived to
> tell of it.
>
> 2) Because of the extreme laid back position of lowracers, CYCLIST can have line of sight
> problems, particularly at stop signs or other intersections. Blowing a stop sign on a lowracer
> is shear folly for this reason. Clearing an intersection on a lowracer can be problematic
> because accelleration from a stop is inferior to upright bikes. On the plus side, it is
> possible to stay clipped in and merely put a hand down at stop signs, so overall it's not a big
> problem once you gain experience.
 
Windy City Rider wrote:
> ... My Baron has been modified with a chopped seat, allowing for the most extreme recline possible
> on that frame. I have yet to take my Baron dowtown. In addition to the seat, my fairing is so well
> fitted that my shoulders are literally "inside" the front opening. I cannot perform the lowracer
> handstand with it mounted. The only roads I feel safe on are low density suburbs-to-rural
> level....

Here is a picture [1] of the original owner of Keith's Baron on the bike. Barb made both the wheel
discs and Optima clone tailbox from carbon fiber composite.

[1] < http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/misc/BaronBarb.jpg >

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
It doesn't matter how unusual your bike, how brightly coloured your clothing or how carefully you
ride if the cretin in the tin box is not paying attention. You'd think that the combination of a
Windcheetah trike, broad daylight and riding apparel loud enough to require the use of shades when
viewing it at night would be enough to attract the attention of the least attentive tin box punter,
but this is clearly not so. Two days ago I lost a close friend in these very circumstances.

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
Dave,

So sorry to hear about your friend on the Windcheetah. Can you give us any details of the accident?
I may help other bent riders to have that information, although riding with cars is a risk on any
type of bike.

Regards, Derek

"Dave Larrington" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It doesn't matter how unusual your bike, how brightly coloured your
clothing
> or how carefully you ride if the cretin in the tin box is not paying attention. You'd think that
> the combination of a Windcheetah trike, broad daylight and riding apparel loud enough to require
> the use of shades when viewing it at night would be enough to attract the attention of the least
> attentive tin box punter, but this is clearly not so. Two days ago I lost
a
> close friend in these very circumstances.
>
> Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
> ===========================================================
> Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
> http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
> ===========================================================
 
This has been my experience also, unfortunately, there are very few rollers where I ride and when I
do get some, it's only for a short distance (the rest is very hilly). But, I must say, it's the only
time I really like the bent. I never have had the opportunity to do any riding on flats on the bent,
but I never liked them on the DF - too boring. Going across Kansas was like pedaling across the
ocean, scenery wise. "harryo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (cbb) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> >> brakes to maintain control even on uprights. In flat to rolling
> hills
> > like most places in the Midwest and Atlantic coastal areas a moderately fit person will spend
> > more time at speeds where a performance bent is an advantage.
>
> I would agree with Craig. As I have said before, I know that I am fastest, on my Baron, on rolling
> terrain. Faster even than on long, straight flats. On rolling terrain, I can build speed on the
> downgrades and can maintain most of this speed by powering up the short rollers. Riding in this
> manner, on gentle rollers, lets you have quick recovery periods on the downgrades between
> hammering the inclines. Kind of like doing natural intervals. If one has pretty good aerobic
> fitness, which I work hard to maintain, they can easily outpace most DF riders in this type of
> rolling terrain. At least I do her in Central Illinois, on the rides I do.
>
> Harry Jiles
 
Tom,

I didn't say 1-1.5 mph AVERAGE speed gain with a lowracer. I was speaking only of social group ride
paceline speeds of 18-30 mph. There is generally no overall average speed gain with a lowracer
because the upright riders will make up any loss to a lowracer rider by blowing stop signs and
maximizing drafting off of each other.

A smooth upright paceline will go 2-3 mph faster than an individual upright rider or 1-2 mph faster
than an individual lowracer rider, given a normal and equal wattage output. Therefore, the only
chance a typical lowracer rider has to hang with a paceline of equally fit riders is to get on the
very back of the paceline and be the "caboose" and draft a bit.

You will not be welcome to do this on your lowracer if you show off and blow by the paceline on
rollers, which is the one terrain for which a recumbent will consistently outshine an upright bike.
On rollers with a bent, I usually drop back enough to barely regain the group before the terrain
changes unless I am putting a lead on the group to compensate for some upcoming hills.

I recall a Cherry Pie criterion recumbent race a couple of years back in which Rob English rode a
highly modified Baron Lowracer to an easy first place finish in the recumbent division.
Interestingly, his lap times were almost identical to the upright Cat 1-2 division racers that had
raced earlier in the day, who had the advantage of a close draft from riding in a bunch. Rob had
nobody to draft with on his lowracer. It is not possible to conclude too much from one day of
racing, except that anyone who bets the farm on one type of bike or the other should be prepared to
lose his shirt.

Cheers, Derek

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> derek wrote:
> >
> > Keith,
> >
> > I know what I am talking about. I ride an Optima Baron Lowracer part of
the
> > time. It is not much faster on the flats than my carbon C4 Joker
upright.
> > Perhaps 1-1.5 mph at paceline speed....
>
> This does not sound like much, but a 1 to 1 1/2 mph average speed gain would be a huge gain in
> group riding.
>
> Anyone, who does not believe this, try the following. Ride a loop of 20+ miles at your comfortable
> "fast" [1] pace. Now try increasing your average speed on the loop by 1 1/2 mph.
>
> [1] Not going anaerobic at any part of the ride.
>
> Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
My understanding of the chain of events is:

1. Steve is pulling out of a side road at the same time as a car is turning left into it (remember
we drive on the left here)
2. car behind turning one accelerates hard as turning car moves out of the way, as road is now
apparently clear
3. Road is not clear :-(

but this may not be accurate, since I don't have much information on which to go. It's *possible*
that the following driver might not have accelerated had Steve been on an upright and thus visible
over the turning car.

Anyway, Chairman Richard Ballantine writes:

"On Wednesday 23 April, while cycling through Bucksburn, Steve Donaldson was in collision with a
car. He died in hospital.

Steve was Secretary of the British Human Power Club. He was involved with the club from the founding
period 1983/84, and became Secretary in 1996.

Steve was an exceptional person; good-hearted, kind, warm, and thoughtful. Together with his wife,
Sherri, he gave generously of his time and energy to the BHPC, guiding the club, organizing events,
and performing a multitude of tasks. Steve was a familiar competitor at international championships,
and active in the International Human Powered Vehicle Association.

An all around cyclist and racer, Steve gained fame for burning out the brakes on a early model
Windcheetah Speedy on a 17 km descent while touring in France. He raced various HPVs, including a
Kingcycle and a K-drive Wasp, fitted with fairings of his own design. He was a happy competitor. The
dual between Steve and gNick Green in the open class final at the HPV World Championships 2002 in
Lelystad, was as intense, close-fought and exciting a contest as might ever be. Yet even when
working and racing hard, Steve usually had a big (if sometimes a touch rueful) smile on his face.

Steve¹s cycling interests extended to a wider world. He was a stalwart of the Deeside Thistle
cycling club and officiated at many of the Aberdeen events. He was also active with the local
Cyclists¹ Touring Club District Association.

We all miss Steve greatly.

Tributes to Steve Donaldson will be posted on the BHPC web site (www.bhpc.org.uk/) and appear in the
next newsletter. There is a Memorial Book at:
http://www.btinternet.com/~John.Olson/bhpc/addSteveDBook.html"

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
> While I have pacelined with other bent riders occasionally, it seldom works out as well as with an
> upright paceline. I am not a super fast rider, so maybe at sustained speeds over 30 mph the
> lowracer would have a significant edge due to low wind resistence. So some of the fo fast "big
> dogs" you mention are probably better off on a lowracer for flatland rides. However, for the
> average rider hoping to get a huge speed advantage over an upright from riding a lowracer, they
> will be invariably disappointed after the "new bike" phase wears off.

Derek:

I finished 3rd in the 50 lap Super Stock race at Indy, with an average of 31.5 mph. This was my
first HPRA race mind you. I'd like to see how many DF'ers astead quality uprights, on their first
race in a velodrome no less, achieve the same.

Tailfairings are cheating you say? Well, Karsten Fabian and Rick Gritters achieved those same speeds
without fairings in the Stock race to take 1st and 2nd place respectively. I might add that HPRA
Stock Champ Frank Geyer did not attend, so the stakes would have been higher if he was present. Now
pair up the DF "veterans" with our unfaired "veterans", and that would be a race to see...

-"Windy City" Keith
 
Keith,

The average rider of any sort of unfaired bike will not be able to sustain over 30mph at a velodrome
like you did. Like I said, there are "big dogs" of both types of bikes that can do it, but that's
not typical.

By the way, the last HPV race in San jose I went to, the bents were decimated across the board in
the unfaired classifications by uprights. Everyone was very sportsmanlike, and it was clearly a
competition of riders rather than bike types.

Cheers, Derek
 
> The average rider of any sort of unfaired bike will not be able to sustain over 30mph at a
> velodrome like you did. Like I said, there are "big dogs" of both types of bikes that can do it,
> but that's not typical.

Correction needed. 31.5 mph was my 200m time. The number was given to me by Ed Gin, who must have
looked at the wrong scoreboard. The results are posted at

http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/racing2003/indiana2003-results.htm

BTW, my overall place in class was 3rd, not 2nd as is currently posted. NOTE TO WARREN: Please
correct this when possible. Veteran HPRA racer Gary Toy beat me to the finish in the last lap
sprint. I am not a big dog, just an enthusiastic newbie ;) The BIG dogs are guys like Rick Gritters
and Karsten Fabian. They sustained 24-second laps, UNFAIRED. That is in excess of 31 mph for 50 laps
(10.2 miles) around the Velodrome. Let me emphasize, UNFAIRED. I promise you this, there will be a
time in the next 2 years when I get to these speeds without a fairing.

> By the way, the last HPV race in San jose I went to, the bents were decimated across the board in
> the unfaired classifications by uprights. Everyone was very sportsmanlike, and it was clearly a
> competition of riders rather than bike types.

Great to hear an account where bents and uprights are mixing it up in the races out there. I'm also
pleased to hear of the positive attitude of those involved.

I'm new to HPRA racing, so correct me if I'm wrong but the more accomplished 'bent racers hail from
the Midwest. There are indeed concentrated geographic areas which have an abundance of talent and
resources in this sport. Just like most of the stronger DF racers live and train in the Western
(mountainous) States. Which incidentally gives credence to the fact that the top DF-ers excel in
climbing. If that race you speak of occured here (in the Midwest), I'd bet the results would be
slightly different.

I can see where this thread is going, and I've said my share. Derek, you speak from an intelligent
and civil point of view and I respect that. But I will personally defend the fact that we have some
strong men and women among us that would give many elite DF'ers a run for their money. No one will
convince me otherwise. They train hard and as much as their lifestyle permits. They are no less an
athelete than any other competitive DF rider out there. They may just be a tad bit more open minded
I think. I'll exit before the thread devolves into one of the numerous bent vs. DF flame-offs with
some dumb-ss troll motherf-cker named Fabrizzio talking sh-t and not posting HIS racing stats.

-"Windy City" Keith
 
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