Well, It looks that I am not wellcome in this forum….I just wanted to give some different points of view form a different perspectve. In my opinion that is what you do in a forum, which is an open place where people exchanges ideas, concepts, hypothesis…etc. However for some, it looks to me that this forum is pretty much unidirectional…
When I expose my ideas and talk about my background with elite cyclists is because since I don´t have studies published I have to back up my “concepts/ideas” at least somehow…and sincerely the only back-up I have is the empiric experiences with those elite athletes I work with. I have never had the chance to team up with a research group to publish data (and I have tons of it) since I work 60-80h/week and have been travelling 120+ days/year. However I promise I will be writing as soon as I can…
Thanks Andy for you words. Maybe I did not get my point across right.
Dr. Coggan is one of the best exercise physiologists in the world and this forum is extremely lucky to have such an eminence, so that many people in this forum could learn a lot from him.
With all due respect as well, Drspoc, you are wrong about the question adressed by Lanierb and maybe should have read it again or maybe you did but ignore some physiological and biochemical factors beyobd the heart, lungs and capillaries. The question is “What is the limiting factor for aerobic performance in trained athletes?” and NOT “What is the limiting factor for VO2 max?”. Of course it is very obvious the assumption you make about limiting factor of VO2 max and it is Physiology 101 since VO2 max = Q * a-v difference, whereQ (Cardiac Output) is: SV * HR * a-v difference, where SV is Stroke Volume, which according to Frank-Starling law is EDV (end diastolic volume)- ESV (end diastolic volume) and a-v diff. is the arteriovenous difference. a-v difference does not change much between trained and sedentary individuals. So it is pretty obvious DrSpoc, that Q (Cardiac Output) is the limiting factor for VO2 max. (BTW …do you know which is the limiting factor for Cardiac Output?…Just a clue…it is an anatomical tissue…
Anyways, when we talk about VO2 max we are making several assumptions that are not necessarely right but we make them by convenience: For example we have to assume that VO2 max measured in labs is done through an open circuit indirect calorimetry which estimates VO2 max. I won´t get into the whole metabolic measurements derived from VO2 and VCO2 which neglect Protein utilisation and therefore we use the term R or RER as an estimation of RQ (which again is an estimation since it is a non-protein RQ). We could be talking about this for a long time and will will be probably getting into diffeent matters. Just stress the point that VO2max is an indirect max measurement.
Other issues that can prove that VO2 max is not the limiting factor for performance (and have been studien on peer-reviewed journals) are:
- Elite athletes continue to improve their performances for many years afer reaching their VO2 max. So we must assume that there are other factors than VO2 max affecting performance. Also with altitide training and blood doping or EPO, performance increases last a few days whereas a higher VO2 max lasts longer.
- It has been proven that VO2 max and Cardiac Output increase more by running than by swimming. In the 70´s it was popular for swimmers to run in order to increase VO2 max and Cardiac Output. However, although they improved those parameters the transference to swimming did not occur since they did not improve their performance…which suggests that muscle metabolism was what really helped improved performance. This is another argument against beingO2 max limiting factor for performance.
- Fiber type and the respective oxidative enzimes can vary largely among subjets. O2 exchange is 3-5 times higher in Type I fibers than Type IIa or IIb (IIx). So muscle fiber type composition and its enzimes (something we forget to mention often) can vary largely among individuals and change the whole metabolic spectrum and therefore performance…and these are metabolic events occuring at the muscle level.
- It is obvious that VO2 max differs largely between heterogeneous subjects (e.g. elite vs recreational vs sedentary subjects). A Pro cyclists has a higher VO2 max than a recreational rider. That is very obvious. However VO2 max is pretty similar between homogeneous groups (e.g. Pro tour riders or world class marathon runners). It is even VERY similar between elite amateurs and world class cyclists- Therefore we would not need to organize any marathon or other endurance events since we could do them in the lab just by assesing VO2 max if this latter was the limiting factor for performance. However VO2 max is more of a “required”element for performance rather than a limiting factor.
- It has VERY well established, especially from the empirical point of view and worldwide by many exercise physiologists that when we estimate VO2 max among homogeneous groups of cyclists there is not a defenite correlation between VO2 max and performance during the competition, therefore VO2 max is consider from the practical point of view a poor predictor of performance. I have tested TdF, Giro , Vuelta , World Championships and classics winners who had lower VO2 max than others who do not succeed at the pro level or even don´t even make it to professionals. Anyone having access to a large pool of pro cyclists and elite amateurs can confirm this point. I can also confirm this point from my own experience. I raced at a pro level (a very low key pro level though, and I have to admit that I consider myself a frustrated professional). My relative VO2 max done in diferent labs was 74-76 ml·kg-1·min-1. I never made it to the top level of Profesionalism and was a pretty bad and average pro though and only lasted 2 years...….I have tested important pros with lower VO2 max than the one I used to have and they made it to the top teams and level and I did not. This also happens among elite runners where there is a large discrepancy between VO2 max and performance studied in labs worldwide included in mine.
- In the 1920´s Dr. A.V. Hill showed that O2 was the limiting factor for muscle contraction and that lactic acid (LA) was produced as a consequence of lack of O2 availability. He even won the Nobel price for this discovery. This idea was sustained for many years untill other researchers started to challenge this concept. In 1968 Jobsis y Stainsby and in 1986 Connett et al., found that Lactic acid was produced in muscle under fully aerobic conditions. So O2 availability was not a limiting factor for lactic acid production. This is now recognized by pretty much the entire scientific community. So here we star talking about cellular mechanisims. If LA is produced under fully aerobic conditions it means that glucolysis it is as well and glycolysis could be perfectly aerobic. So important cellular events occur in the presence of O2 and lactate oxidation (removal) from the muscle and specific enzime and its isoforms like LDH´s, mLDH and different isoforms of lactate transporters (MCT´s) have to be taking into account. This is a relative “new” and promissing field since there are still no studies related to the mentioned elements related to performance and needless to say about the differences between recreational vs elite cyclists…
Then we can talk, although I won´t because it would be much longer than what I am already writing (sorry for this long response) about the limiting factors for performance. Today the reality is that still we have not found a single limiting factor for performance!!. However, most scientist worldwide coincide that limiting factor for performance, as Dr. Coggan says as well, are related to muscle metabolism and all the events happening at the cellular level with a whole array of local factors in the cellular and extracellular “mielu”.
DrSpoc and Wynne666; about your statement about EPO, Hyperoxygen training and Blood doping, again you are making a very obvious assumption since none of this assumptions are physiological. So they don´t happen in the “real physiological world”. Blood oxygen-carrying capacity is 18-20 ml O2 ·ml-1. With EPO or blood doping as well as other 2,3 DPG modifiers, synthetic hemoglobins and Perfluorocarbons (PFC´s) the oxigen-carying capacity of blood can be increased to more than 30 ml O2 ·ml-1. However as I stated before none of this is physiological and it is beyond normal human physiology.
Frenchyge, since you think I am a troll, I will have to tell you that your comment was a bit unfortunate. I don´t need to prove that aerobic metabolism and/or VO2 max are not the limiting factors for performance and don´t need to give you “world-changing discovery´s results” since it has never been proven by modern physiology that aerobic metabolism is the limiting factor for performance in trained athletes and even more specific in elite cyclists. Others have proven that for me as I stated above that VO2 max and/or aerobic capacity are not the limiting factors for oerformance…. Maybe I should not used the word "Myth" when referring to VO2 max or aerobic capacity but the truth is that no-one has yet proved in modern physiology that either of these factors are the limiting ones for performance (at a competitive level). Maybe since it looks like you have lots of knowledge and experience in the matter, I now ask you to show me a single peer reviewed paper which states that determination of VO2 max will predict if you can win a Tour de France, a world championship or the 1-h record…..or that can even discriminate in bewteen a same group of elite cyclists or runners for example. So I don´t have to give you results for, what you mentioned, a“world-cycling discovery” since there is no need to because there is not such a need/case for that….
Anyways sorry for the long response, which will probably will be my last intervention in the forum. Due to the genesis of the word “forum” I thought I could show different ideas and/or concepts which I extract straight from pro cyclists and could create a discussion forum per se.
Cheers.