What makes a bike fast, anway?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Matt J, May 5, 2003.

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  1. Matt J

    Matt J Guest

    So we were sitting around after my school's bike club meeting, talking about riding and racing
    and training, and the subject of me and my bike came up. Now, I ride a 1987 Trek road bike that
    was my dad's and was never used until I got to it last year. I've upgraded tires, saddle, a rear
    wheel (sort of) bar tape, and added a computer. Full suntour, except for the brakes, which are
    DiaCompe. I ride it all the time on group rides and in pacelines up to 28 or so mph. Someone
    says, "Man, you could be fast if you had a new bike." I'm puzzled by this - what is so different
    about a new bike than my current one? STI shifters: ok, those make shifting easier, but don't
    directly make me faster.

    9/10 speed drivetrain: also doesn't directly make me faster.

    Carbon fork: sure it "feels nice," maybe, and is a little more aero, but not significant... right?

    Frame: They claimed that a frame would make me faster. Different geometry, ligher, etc. How? I can
    see how geometry might help comfort or make it a little quicker around turns, but faster? How? I'm
    always the first one off from stoplights, so lightness can't be that much of an issue. And my frame
    now fits just fine.

    Wheels: This I can believe. I've got simply 32 hole wheels with box-section rims, nothing aero or
    anything like that. But still, these can't make a significant difference.

    So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike? Thanks Matt
     
    Tags:


  2. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Matt Jmess writes:

    > So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    > allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike?

    Put a rider on it who can put out the power. That the other guy had newer equipment doesn't hold up
    at the finish line or when riding with others. More gears only makes the bicycle heavier. There are
    certainly enough of them to go uphill fast.

    "It's not about the bike" as lance said (only he meant something else) so accurately with a
    second meaning.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  3. Bruce

    Bruce Guest

    go to http://www.analyticcycling.com/

    you will find that a lighter bike will help you gain a few inches in a sprint, and a few seconds in
    a timed hill climb.

    you will find that aero wheels will be good for about a minute over a one hour solo event. Other
    aero stuff will have similar effects.

    These are very significant in races. .... but....

    If you aren't racing, or getting dropped by your friends, then save your money.

    Here's how to get the biggest improvements for little cash: use good tires, pumped to reasonable
    pressure wear clothing that doesn't flap in the wind pedal hard get comfortable in an aero position
    keep the chain & gears clean & lubed

    -Bruce

    "Matt J" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > So we were sitting around after my school's bike club meeting, talking about riding and racing
    > and training, and the subject of me and my bike came up. Now, I ride a 1987 Trek road bike that
    > was my dad's and was never used until I got to it last year. I've upgraded tires, saddle, a rear
    > wheel (sort of) bar tape, and added a computer. Full suntour, except for the brakes, which are
    > DiaCompe. I ride it all the time on group rides and in pacelines up to 28 or so mph. Someone
    > says, "Man, you could be fast if you had a new bike." I'm puzzled by this - what is so different
    > about a new bike than my current one? STI shifters: ok, those make shifting easier, but don't
    > directly make me faster.
    >
    > 9/10 speed drivetrain: also doesn't directly make me faster.
    >
    > Carbon fork: sure it "feels nice," maybe, and is a little more aero, but not significant... right?
    >
    > Frame: They claimed that a frame would make me faster. Different geometry, ligher, etc. How? I can
    > see how geometry might help comfort or make it a little quicker around turns, but faster? How? I'm
    > always the first one off from stoplights, so lightness can't be that much of an issue. And my
    > frame now fits just fine.
    >
    > Wheels: This I can believe. I've got simply 32 hole wheels with box-section rims, nothing aero or
    > anything like that. But still, these can't make a significant difference.
    >
    > So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    > allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike? Thanks Matt
     
  4. Wbtobal

    Wbtobal Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matt J) writes:

    >So we were sitting around after my school's bike club meeting, talking about riding and racing and
    >training, and the subject of me and my bike came up. Now, I ride a 1987 Trek road bike that was my
    >dad's and was never used until I got to it last year. I've upgraded tires, saddle, a rear wheel
    >(sort of) bar tape, and added a computer. Full suntour, except for the brakes, which are DiaCompe.
    >I ride it all the time on group rides and in pacelines up to 28 or so mph. Someone says, "Man, you
    >could be fast if you had a new bike." I'm puzzled by this - what is so different about a new bike
    >than my current one?
    ....remainder snipped.

    Matt,

    A new road bike will undoubtedly be lighter, and that may help make you faster.....there is a "new
    bike syndrome" that makes you feel like you're faster....BUT never lose sight of the fact that "It's
    the engine not the bike" that makes you faster.

    Regards,
    Bill
     
  5. Michael Dart

    Michael Dart Guest

    The engine.

    Mike
     
  6. Bob Flemming

    Bob Flemming Guest

    >So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    >allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike? Thanks Matt

    Sounds like you're answering your own question here. Either that, or you certainly need some
    convincing.

    I had these very same thoughts today, although a very different situation to yours.....age
    for one :)

    Here I am, at the age of 44, riding this 60 dollar 1972, 27" Schwinn road bike around, and seeing
    all these 'real-nice' machines pass me by on the bike trail in Sacramento today, and thinking 'how
    much different would this 60 mile ride really be with one of those? Really? I've got 21 gears, moved
    the shifters up to the stem, got some real old aero bars fitted to help mitigate hand and wrist
    numbness, rebuilt the wheels with new spokes myself, greased all the wheel, BB bearings etc......and
    basically, It moves along very nicely thank you very much.

    At the end of the day, depends what you want, and how obsessed you want to get about bikes I
    suppose. And what you intend 'doing with it'.

    Personally, I think I'd rather spend any spare money I had on trying a recumbent. The more I look at
    those things, the more I think, 'there's a wisdom in lying down' :)

    You can always try out a new bike of course. And I don't think you'd be that far out in trusting
    your 'gut feeling' either. You'll soon know, if you 'really' want 'one of these'.

    Got to be vary of those marketing people :)

    cheers and happy cycling, whatever you ride bob
     
  7. Matt J <[email protected]> wrote: SNIP
    : Someone says, "Man, you could be fast if you had a new bike." I'm puzzled by this - what is so
    : different about a new bike than my current one? STI shifters: ok, those make shifting easier, but
    : don't directly make me faster.

    : 9/10 speed drivetrain: also doesn't directly make me faster.

    : Carbon fork: sure it "feels nice," maybe, and is a little more aero, but not significant... right?

    : Frame: They claimed that a frame would make me faster. Different geometry, ligher, etc. How? I can
    : see how geometry might help comfort or make it a little quicker around turns, but faster? How? I'm
    : always the first one off from stoplights, so lightness can't be that much of an issue. And my
    : frame now fits just fine.

    : Wheels: This I can believe. I've got simply 32 hole wheels with box-section rims, nothing aero or
    : anything like that. But still, these can't make a significant difference.

    : So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    : allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike? Thanks Matt

    I think you've pretty much answered your own question. If you can stay with the bunch then the only
    thing you'll need to outrun them is a more efficient engine. A super light bike feels nice and
    accelerates well, but unless you're trying to take a jump that takes everyone by surprise, it's a
    very expensive and debatable advantage to buy.

    I have a fond memory that always sobers up my bike lust. I turned up one morning for my regular ride
    with some local folks and was relieved to see there was an older guy with a bike from the 50s. My
    rationale was that we'd have an easy ride waiting for this guy on his 5-speed (single chain ring),
    chain guarded, goofy steel handlebarred clunker. As you can guess, I watched with complete disbelief
    as he sailed over the first long hill while I huffed and puffed on my light weight (comparatively)
    late model alloy racer. This guy rode my legs off from the start. I found out later that he is a
    long time runner and runs most mornings. He's had years to develop superior cardio-vascular fitness
    - and it's worked! I still laugh at the thought of his rubber pedals and sandshoes. Imagine how
    techno they make my carbon fibre soled shoes and Look pedals look!

    The people criticising your bike are probably the ones who couldn't bear being beaten by a guy on a
    supposed beater. The
    psychology they're hanging onto is that it's all about the bike. The truth is, you've already got
    them beaten.[If you can beat someone's mind you can easily beat their body].

    Cheerz, Lynzz
     
  8. Gary Smiley

    Gary Smiley Guest

    Try a pedal system, so you will have an up-stroke as well as a downstroke.

    Matt J wrote:

    > So we were sitting around after my school's bike club meeting, talking about riding and racing
    > and training, and the subject of me and my bike came up. Now, I ride a 1987 Trek road bike that
    > was my dad's and was never used until I got to it last year. I've upgraded tires, saddle, a rear
    > wheel (sort of) bar tape, and added a computer. Full suntour, except for the brakes, which are
    > DiaCompe. I ride it all the time on group rides and in pacelines up to 28 or so mph. Someone
    > says, "Man, you could be fast if you had a new bike." I'm puzzled by this - what is so different
    > about a new bike than my current one? STI shifters: ok, those make shifting easier, but don't
    > directly make me faster.
    >
    > 9/10 speed drivetrain: also doesn't directly make me faster.
    >
    > Carbon fork: sure it "feels nice," maybe, and is a little more aero, but not significant... right?
    >
    > Frame: They claimed that a frame would make me faster. Different geometry, ligher, etc. How? I can
    > see how geometry might help comfort or make it a little quicker around turns, but faster? How? I'm
    > always the first one off from stoplights, so lightness can't be that much of an issue. And my
    > frame now fits just fine.
    >
    > Wheels: This I can believe. I've got simply 32 hole wheels with box-section rims, nothing aero or
    > anything like that. But still, these can't make a significant difference.
    >
    > So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    > allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike? Thanks Matt
     
  9. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    "Matt J" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > I ride it all the time on group rides and in pacelines up to 28 or so mph. Someone says, "Man,
    > you could be fast if you had a new bike." I'm puzzled by this - what is so different about a new
    > bike than my current one?

    I ride with a lot of the same people, over the same course, every week (at least once), for years
    now. People upgrade bikes or components all the time. I asked the question the other day as a bunch
    of us were having coffee after a ride: who got faster with a new bike? Nobody could think of anyone
    who did, but then they went back to talking about bikes they lusted after.

    Some people do get faster, invariably because they lost a bunch of weight and/or started riding more
    with competitive goals in mind. Never from a new bike. You might be the exception, but I doubt it.
     
  10. On Mon, 05 May 2003 15:46:25 +0000, Matt J wrote:

    > Someone says, "Man, you could be fast if you had a new bike."

    Sounds like he's shillin' for the industry.

    > Carbon fork: sure it "feels nice," maybe, and is a little more aero, but not significant... right?

    More aero? No. Lighter, yeah, and there is that cool factor.
    >
    > Frame: They claimed that a frame would make me faster. Different geometry, ligher, etc. How? I can
    > see how geometry might help comfort or make it a little quicker around turns, but faster? How?

    New bike magic.

    > Wheels: This I can believe.

    Why? If you recognize the rest of this as bullshit, why stop at the very questionable advantage of
    spending nearly $1000 for heavier wheels, just because they have 11 spokes?

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or _`\(,_ | that we are to
    stand by the president right or wrong, is not (_)/ (_) | only unpatriotic and servile, but is
    morally treasonable to the American public. --Theodore Roosevelt
     
  11. Almost Fast

    Almost Fast Guest

    Mostly the rider's smarts and power makes a bike fast. See http://www.analyticcycling.com/

    Aerodynamics plays a big part. To paraphrase the pop song, everything counts, in small amounts:
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/aero/aerodynamics.htm

    [email protected] (Matt J) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > So we were sitting around after my school's bike club meeting, talking about riding and racing
    > and training, and the subject of me and my bike came up. Now, I ride a 1987 Trek road bike that
    > was my dad's and was never used until I got to it last year. I've upgraded tires, saddle, a rear
    > wheel (sort of) bar tape, and added a computer. Full suntour, except for the brakes, which are
    > DiaCompe. I ride it all the time on group rides and in pacelines up to 28 or so mph. Someone
    > says, "Man, you could be fast if you had a new bike." I'm puzzled by this - what is so different
    > about a new bike than my current one? STI shifters: ok, those make shifting easier, but don't
    > directly make me faster.
    >
    > 9/10 speed drivetrain: also doesn't directly make me faster.
    >
    > Carbon fork: sure it "feels nice," maybe, and is a little more aero, but not significant... right?
    >
    > Frame: They claimed that a frame would make me faster. Different geometry, ligher, etc. How? I can
    > see how geometry might help comfort or make it a little quicker around turns, but faster? How? I'm
    > always the first one off from stoplights, so lightness can't be that much of an issue. And my
    > frame now fits just fine.
    >
    > Wheels: This I can believe. I've got simply 32 hole wheels with box-section rims, nothing aero or
    > anything like that. But still, these can't make a significant difference.
    >
    > So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    > allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike? Thanks Matt
     
  12. Psycholist

    Psycholist Guest

    So here's a related question posed in a short story. This past weekend I'd doing a mountainous
    century ride. I'm not a great descender, but we're on this really steep part that's pretty much
    straight. No need to be on the brakes at all. I've wound out my gears and I'm now just hunkered down
    for maximum aerodynamics. Don't know how fast I was going, but the last figure I'd seen before I got
    all hunkered down was 47.2 mph.

    So all the sudden this little guy just goes flying by me like I'm standing still! I outweigh him.
    I'm on a brand new Trek 5500 courtesy of the insurance company after my old bike (and me) got run
    over by a teenage driver (so I can't imagine that the bike is holding me back). I just can't figure
    out where this guy could have found so much more speed going down that hill.

    Any theories/insights?

    Bob C. <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Matt Jmess writes:
    >
    > > So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    > > allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike?
    >
    > Put a rider on it who can put out the power. That the other guy had newer equipment doesn't hold
    > up at the finish line or when riding with others. More gears only makes the bicycle heavier. There
    > are certainly enough of them to go uphill fast.
    >
    > "It's not about the bike" as lance said (only he meant something else) so accurately with a second
    > meaning.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  13. Mark Wolfe

    Mark Wolfe Guest

    That one is simple. It's the engine.

    Matt J wrote:

    > So we were sitting around after my school's bike club meeting, talking about riding and racing
    > and training, and the subject of me and my bike came up. Now, I ride a 1987 Trek road bike that
    > was my dad's and was never used until I got to it last year. I've upgraded tires, saddle, a rear
    > wheel (sort of) bar tape, and added a computer. Full suntour, except for the brakes, which are
    > DiaCompe. I ride it all the time on group rides and in pacelines up to 28 or so mph. Someone
    > says, "Man, you could be fast if you had a new bike." I'm puzzled by this - what is so different
    > about a new bike than my current one? STI shifters: ok, those make shifting easier, but don't
    > directly make me faster.
    >
    > 9/10 speed drivetrain: also doesn't directly make me faster.
    >
    > Carbon fork: sure it "feels nice," maybe, and is a little more aero, but not significant... right?
    >
    > Frame: They claimed that a frame would make me faster. Different geometry, ligher, etc. How? I can
    > see how geometry might help comfort or make it a little quicker around turns, but faster? How? I'm
    > always the first one off from stoplights, so lightness can't be that much of an issue. And my
    > frame now fits just fine.
    >
    > Wheels: This I can believe. I've got simply 32 hole wheels with box-section rims, nothing aero or
    > anything like that. But still, these can't make a significant difference.
    >
    > So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    > allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike? Thanks Matt

    --
    Mark Wolfe http://www.wolfenet.org gpg fingerprint = 42B6 EFEB 5414 AA18 01B7 64AC EF46 F7E6 82F6
    8C71 "Jesus ate my mouse" or some similar banality. -- Megahal (trained on asr), 1998-11-06
     
  14. In article <[email protected]>, Matt J <[email protected]> wrote:
    >So we were sitting around after my school's bike club meeting, talking about riding and racing and
    >training, and the subject of me and my bike came up. Now, I ride a 1987 Trek road bike that was my
    >dad's and was never used until I got to it last year. I've upgraded tires, saddle, a rear wheel
    >(sort of) bar tape, and added a computer. Full suntour, except for the brakes, which are DiaCompe.
    >I ride it all the time on group rides and in pacelines up to 28 or so mph. Someone says, "Man, you
    >could be fast if you had a new bike." I'm puzzled by this - what is so different about a new bike
    >than my current one?

    I buy new bikes because I like them. Waiting around for your Trek to wear out will take a long long
    time. A new bike won't produce significant performance benefits, but if you like riding new bikes,
    then it's no worse than many other money pits and requires no apology or feigned necessity.

    --Paul
     
  15. Russell

    Russell Guest

    [email protected] (Matt J) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    > allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike?

    What would make a new bike faster is "new bike syndrome."

    The problem with a *really* nice bike, IMO, is that you then have zero excuse when you're doggin'
    it. I rather like keeping up with the group (or going off the front!) riding an obviously heavy and
    "slow" bike...then I can later brag that I've got the superior motor!
     
  16. >>> I ride it all the time on group rides and in pacelines up to 28 or
    so mph.<<<

    Sounds like you've got a great engine, Matt. If I were you, I think I would concentrate on keeping
    it tuned up and maybe a sponsor will lay a fancy bike on you one day.

    Good luck.

    Lewis.

    ......................

    [email protected] (Matt J) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > So we were sitting around after my school's bike club meeting, talking about riding and racing
    > and training, and the subject of me and my bike came up. Now, I ride a 1987 Trek road bike that
    > was my dad's and was never used until I got to it last year. I've upgraded tires, saddle, a rear
    > wheel (sort of) bar tape, and added a computer. Full suntour, except for the brakes, which are
    > DiaCompe. I ride it all the time on group rides and in pacelines up to 28 or so mph. Someone
    > says, "Man, you could be fast if you had a new bike." I'm puzzled by this - what is so different
    > about a new bike than my current one? STI shifters: ok, those make shifting easier, but don't
    > directly make me faster.
    >
    > 9/10 speed drivetrain: also doesn't directly make me faster.
    >
    > Carbon fork: sure it "feels nice," maybe, and is a little more aero, but not significant... right?
    >
    > Frame: They claimed that a frame would make me faster. Different geometry, ligher, etc. How? I can
    > see how geometry might help comfort or make it a little quicker around turns, but faster? How? I'm
    > always the first one off from stoplights, so lightness can't be that much of an issue. And my
    > frame now fits just fine.
    >
    > Wheels: This I can believe. I've got simply 32 hole wheels with box-section rims, nothing aero or
    > anything like that. But still, these can't make a significant difference.
    >
    > So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    > allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike? Thanks Matt
     
  17. Terry Morse

    Terry Morse Guest

    Matt J wrote:

    > So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster?

    The fact that it is new. I've noticed that when someone shows up in a group ride with a brand new
    bike, he's always a little faster than the week before. This effect goes away as the "newness"
    goes away.
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/
     
  18. What makes a bicycle fast? Gosh darn it, I believe it's the rider, distantly followed by: position
    on the bike and clothing (no loose-fitting, flapping stuff) and then, so far back as to need a
    telescope to see it, there would be aero wheels and aero frames/forks.

    Nigel Grinter

    P.S. I forgot steep descents - they always work for me.
     
  19. Spacey Spade

    Spacey Spade Guest

    psycholist wrote:
    >So here's a related question posed in a short story. This past weekend I'd doing a mountainous
    >century ride. I'm not a great descender, but we're on this really steep part that's pretty much
    >straight. No need to be on the brakes at all. I've wound out my gears and I'm now just hunkered
    >down for maximum aerodynamics. Don't know how fast I was going, but the last figure I'd seen before
    >I got all hunkered down was 47.2 mph.
    >
    >So all the sudden this little guy just goes flying by me like I'm standing still! I outweigh him.
    >I'm on a brand new Trek 5500 courtesy of the insurance company after my old bike (and me) got run
    >over by a teenage driver (so I can't imagine that the bike is holding me back). I just can't figure
    >out where this guy could have found so much more speed going down that hill.
    >
    >Any theories/insights?

    He had a better tuck position than you did. Aerodynamics counts at that speed.

    Spacey
     
  20. Todd Fahrner

    Todd Fahrner Guest

    [email protected] (Matt J) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > So we were sitting around after my school's bike club meeting, talking about riding and racing and
    > training, and the subject of me and my bike came up. Now, I ride a 1987 Trek road bike that was my
    > dad's and was never used until I got to it last year. I've upgraded tires, saddle, a rear wheel
    > (sort of) bar tape, and added a computer. Full suntour, except for the brakes, which are DiaCompe.
    > I ride it all the time on group rides and in pacelines up to 28 or so mph. Someone says, "Man, you
    > could be fast if you had a new bike." I'm puzzled by this - what is so different about a new bike
    > than my current one?

    you should be puzzled by this. all except for the brakes. you could go so much faster with 2003 dura
    ace brakes.

    the only way a different (not necessarily newer) bike would let you go, say, 30 instead of 28 with
    the same energy expenditure would be one that enforced a significantly more aero or ergonomically
    optimal riding position, assuming your position isn't already uncomfortably so.

    > STI shifters: ok, those make shifting easier, but don't directly make me faster.

    no

    > 9/10 speed drivetrain: also doesn't directly make me faster.

    not unless you find either that your current gearing has an inadequate range for the terrain you
    cover, or the jumps are too big.

    > Carbon fork: sure it "feels nice," maybe, and is a little more aero, but not significant... right?

    define significant. by my def, "no".

    > Frame: They claimed that a frame would make me faster. Different geometry, ligher, etc. How? I can
    > see how geometry might help comfort or make it a little quicker around turns, but faster? How?

    if your current frame doesn't let you adjust bars and seat such that you can optimally exploit
    your muscles, or if it feels wrong at speed, such that you brake more than strictly necessary or
    fail to hammer when the opportunity presents, then possibly a different, not necessarily newer
    frame would help.

    > I'm always the first one off from stoplights, so lightness can't be that much of an issue. And my
    > frame now fits just fine.

    the couple pounds you might shave with an ultralight bike is about equal to the water you might be
    carrying or sweating or peeing on any given ride. you know how much difference that makes.

    > Wheels: This I can believe. I've got simply 32 hole wheels with box-section rims, nothing aero or
    > anything like that. But still, these can't make a significant difference.

    ultralight frame and wheels feel faster (more fun) because they more nearly and quickly match your
    power. once you accelerate the whole lot to a given speed, it seems to me that the heavier bike and
    wheels will be just a tiny bit easier to keep there - momentum. note that aero rims tend to be
    heavier than box section. but i doubt that aero wheels can make as much difference as an aero riding
    position in overall speed. so it depends: how good is your position now?

    > So, what is it about a new bike that would make me faster? Is it worth saving up months of
    > allowance, pay, a birthday, etc, for a new bike?

    i'd say if you are trying to break some record, and you're already doing everything you possibly can
    but the damn bike is holding you back, try a different bike. also get a new bike if you just like
    the style, or will be motivated to ride more if you have to justify the purchase, or just can't deal
    with thoughtless comments. meanwhile, enjoy beating people off the line with your old bike. it's
    better "training", right?
     
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