What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear derailleur?



M

Martin Wilson

Guest
What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear
derailleur?

Can 7 or 8 speed derailleurs be used?

What is a good step up in quality?
 
M

MSeries

Guest
Martin Wilson wrote:
> What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear
> derailleur?
>
> Can 7 or 8 speed derailleurs be used?
>
> What is a good step up in quality?



If you intend to use the same cassette and gear changers you could
easily replace your mech. with a Deore XT. I have no experience with
Tourney and I am assuming, like all modern Shimano components they pull
the same amount of cable per click and the mech has the same
multiplier. The rear mech. has to convert the cable pull into sideways
movement so the ratio might say that 4 mm of cable pull translates into
6mm of sideways movement, clearly the amount per click is determined by
the gear changer not the derailleur. [NB These numbers are for
illustration only]

The actual number of speeds for a rear mech is largely irrelevant, what
is relevant is the multipliler, which may not be published, and how far
it will move overall. Shimano components across ranges and across the
years are very compatible in this way. The worst case scenario is that
you'd need to replace the gear changer too but I would be surprised if
this was the case, I would not be surprised though if an LBS told you
it was essential so they could get more money from you.

TO get a 8 speed bike you would need to replace the gear changer and
cassette, maybe the chain (you ought to) and maybe the rear mech.

A look at the Shimano website may confirm or not what I have said about
compatibility. I know for sure that 105 levers, Dura Ace levers work
fine with Deore and Deore XT mechs. I have done it with 6, 8 and 9
speed set ups.
 
D

David Martin

Guest
On 30/9/04 11:50 am, in article [email protected],
"Martin Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear
> derailleur?


Any shimano rear MTB one will be an improvement


> Can 7 or 8 speed derailleurs be used?


Yes.

> What is a good step up in quality?


Acera or altus are your next step up. These are prefectly good, crisp
shifting mechs, but the longevity could be called into question. (Tourney
will wear much faster).

At the top end of the scale you can get lighter and longer lasting
components, but these will probably be on the other side of the
price/performance barrier.

Personally I'd go for Acera/Altus or LX (or whatever the latest model names
are) as the best price/performance to match what you already have.

...d
 
N

NC

Guest
Martin Wilson wrote:
> What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear
> derailleur?
>
> Can 7 or 8 speed derailleurs be used?
>
> What is a good step up in quality?


Yes to the replacement of the derailleur unit. Something around Altus would
probably be fine on the price/quality curve for around the £15-£17 mark in a
local bike shop. That leaves you with 6 on the back and a decent changer.

But, I would expect that swapping to 7 or 8 rear cogs is complex and
probably not worth the expense. AFAIK, 6 speed rear blocks are screw on.
Whereas modern 7s and 8s are cassette type. So, to swap you need a new hub
in the wheel (or a new wheel, as I doubt the cost of paying someone to fit a
new hub would save anything over a new wheel).

Older 7s were screw-on; my bike has one, but it's a 14 year old model. You
may find someone with a 7 speed screw-on block which could replace the 6
speed. Add some 7 speed changers (or use friction mode).



- Nigel


--
NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Replies to newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.
 
N

NC

Guest
Martin Wilson wrote:
> What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear
> derailleur?
>
> Can 7 or 8 speed derailleurs be used?
>
> What is a good step up in quality?


Yes to the replacement of the derailleur unit. Something around Altus would
probably be fine on the price/quality curve for around the £15-£17 mark in a
local bike shop. That leaves you with 6 on the back and a decent changer.

But, I would expect that swapping to 7 or 8 rear cogs is complex and
probably not worth the expense. AFAIK, 6 speed rear blocks are screw on.
Whereas modern 7s and 8s are cassette type. So, to swap you need a new hub
in the wheel (or a new wheel, as I doubt the cost of paying someone to fit a
new hub would save anything over a new wheel).

Older 7s were screw-on; my bike has one, but it's a 14 year old model. You
may find someone with a 7 speed screw-on block which could replace the 6
speed. Add some 7 speed changers (or use friction mode).



- Nigel


--
NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Replies to newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.
 
C

Clive George

Guest
"NC" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]

> But, I would expect that swapping to 7 or 8 rear cogs is complex and
> probably not worth the expense. AFAIK, 6 speed rear blocks are screw on.
> Whereas modern 7s and 8s are cassette type.


7 can be either (shimano do both still), 6 will be freewheel and 8 will be
cassette. There are the occasional 8 speed freewheel and 6 speed cassette
but these may safely be ignored.

cheers,
clive
 
S

Steph Peters

Guest
Martin Wilson <[email protected]> of wrote:

>What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear
>derailleur?
>
>Can 7 or 8 speed derailleurs be used?
>
>What is a good step up in quality?


Don't bother. We know that you've got a lovely Kona just waiting for you to
lose a little bit more weight to be able to use it. That Kona will be so
much better than your existing bike, that you will only ride the Kona. At
this stage spending money on anything that isn't transferable to your next
bike is not worth while.
--
HAL 9000: Dave, put down those Windows disks. Dave. DAVE NO!!!
Steph Peters delete invalid from [email protected]lid
Tatting, lace & stitching page <http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/index.htm>
 
M

Martin Wilson

Guest
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:38:34 +0100, Steph Peters
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Martin Wilson <[email protected]> of wrote:
>
>>What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear
>>derailleur?
>>
>>Can 7 or 8 speed derailleurs be used?
>>
>>What is a good step up in quality?

>
>Don't bother. We know that you've got a lovely Kona just waiting for you to
>lose a little bit more weight to be able to use it. That Kona will be so
>much better than your existing bike, that you will only ride the Kona. At
>this stage spending money on anything that isn't transferable to your next
>bike is not worth while.


I hear what your saying but I'm planning to regularly commute (in fact
I've just started doing so) and my thinking is nice weather=kona and
**** wet weather=Pagan and the rear derallieur on the Pagan is its
weakest link. However the derailleur is secured by the wheel nut and
has a single screw anchor.to the top left.
 
S

Simon Brooke

Guest
in message <[email protected]>, Martin Wilson
('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:38:34 +0100, Steph Peters
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Martin Wilson <[email protected]> of wrote:
>>
>>>What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear
>>>derailleur?
>>>
>>>Can 7 or 8 speed derailleurs be used?
>>>
>>>What is a good step up in quality?

>>
>>Don't bother. We know that you've got a lovely Kona just waiting for
>>you to
>>lose a little bit more weight to be able to use it. That Kona will be
>>so
>>much better than your existing bike, that you will only ride the Kona.
>> At this stage spending money on anything that isn't transferable to
>>your next bike is not worth while.

>
> I hear what your saying but I'm planning to regularly commute (in fact
> I've just started doing so) and my thinking is nice weather=kona and
> **** wet weather=Pagan and the rear derallieur on the Pagan is its
> weakest link. However the derailleur is secured by the wheel nut and
> has a single screw anchor.to the top left.


What is secured to the wheel nut is almost certainly just a deraileur
hanger; the deraileur mechanism itself is almost certainly bolted to
this using a standard bolt. The deraileur mechanisms themselves do not
index - it's the hand controls which contain the indexing mechanism. I
higher quality derailleur will however move more smoothly and
accurately than a cheaper one, even with the same hand control. All
current Shimano mechs have the same ratio of cable pull to deraileur
movement, so you should be able to replace the deraileur with any other
Shimano long cage model, from Acera at under twenty quid to XTR at over
seventy. They do get better as they go up the range but it is
diminishing returns; I'd tend to plonk for LX or XT if this is a bike
you intend to continue to use regularly.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us
;; many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets.
;; Imagination without skill gives us modern art.
;; Tom Stoppard, Artist Descending A Staircase
 
W

wheelsgoround

Guest
"Martin Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear
> derailleur?
>
> Can 7 or 8 speed derailleurs be used?
>
> What is a good step up in quality?


Why do you wan to replace it?
(Honest question; not a leading one)


Ian
 
M

Mike Quin

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, Martin Wilson
> ('[email protected]') wrote:


>> However the derailleur is secured by the wheel nut and
>> has a single screw anchor.to the top left.

>
> What is secured to the wheel nut is almost certainly just a deraileur
> hanger; the deraileur mechanism itself is almost certainly bolted to
> this using a standard bolt.


Not necesarily. There are two types of "Tourney" derailers, one that
bolts to a standard hanger, and another which attaches directly to the
dropout and is secured by the wheel nut and a small nut and bolt that go
through the dropout slot the prevent the derailer from rotating.

From Martin's descrption I'd guess he has the latter type.

Should he wish to replace it with a standard derailer he'll need to get
an adapter claw as well (EBC were able to supply one of these when I
needed one).

--
Mike Quin
 
S

Steph Peters

Guest
Martin Wilson <[email protected]> of wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:38:34 +0100, Steph Peters
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Martin Wilson <[email protected]> of wrote:
>>
>>>What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear
>>>derailleur?
>>>
>>>Can 7 or 8 speed derailleurs be used?
>>>
>>>What is a good step up in quality?

>>
>>Don't bother. We know that you've got a lovely Kona just waiting for you to
>>lose a little bit more weight to be able to use it. That Kona will be so
>>much better than your existing bike, that you will only ride the Kona. At
>>this stage spending money on anything that isn't transferable to your next
>>bike is not worth while.

>
>I hear what your saying but I'm planning to regularly commute (in fact
>I've just started doing so) and my thinking is nice weather=kona and
>**** wet weather=Pagan and the rear derallieur on the Pagan is its
>weakest link.


I still suspect that you will end up using the Kona an awful lot more than
the Pagan. So I'd say at least wait to do this until the Pagan rear
derailleur stops working properly, by which time you should have more idea
of how much use it will be getting.
--
If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished!
Steph Peters delete invalid from [email protected]lid
Tatting, lace & stitching page <http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/index.htm>
 
M

Martin Wilson

Guest
On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:27:29 +0100, "wheelsgoround"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Martin Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>> What options for replacing a Shimano tourney MTB 6 speed rear
>> derailleur?
>>
>> Can 7 or 8 speed derailleurs be used?
>>
>> What is a good step up in quality?

>
>Why do you wan to replace it?
>(Honest question; not a leading one)
>


Well its a bit slow/vague at changing gears at times. Looking at it
the main spring is a bit weak looking and the way the gearing pivots
to change gears is done by crude riviting so the time it takes to
change from one gear to another can vary depending on which gear its
in and resistance in these not exactly friction free joints. It does
the job ok but I would like more consistant gear change timing. I have
oiled both the gear cable and the pivoting parts of the gears and its
not made much improvement. It does slowly seem to be improving with
time possibly as I wear the mechanism in but I'm thinking perhaps an
upgrade here would be beneficial as well as a lot better looking than
the ugly tourney mechanism.
 
W

wheelsgoround

Guest
"Martin Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> Well its a bit slow/vague at changing gears at times. etc. etc. >


Fair enough. Your Tourney mech should work OK but it sounds like it isn't.
Assuming the cable is running freely and you have oiled the pivots (sounds
like it is and you have) then other things to check are:
- Chain not too worn and/or gunked-up
- Mounting pivot and cage pivot rotate freely (i.e. no sticking)
- Limit screws properly set (only affects biggest and smallest sprockets)
- Cable tension properly set
If all that is OK and your not happy with the shifting performance then a
better quality deraileur is probably a god idea. Unless you've not got
anything better to spend the money on, it's not worth going for an expensive
one. Acera or Alivio should do perfectly well. Additional consideration is
that your frame does not have a hanger and the hanger on the Tourney mech is
not removable/re-usable so you will need to buy a bolt-on hanger as well.

Ian
 
M

Martin Wilson

Guest
On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 10:56:10 +0100, "wheelsgoround"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Martin Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>
>> Well its a bit slow/vague at changing gears at times. etc. etc. >

>
>Fair enough. Your Tourney mech should work OK but it sounds like it isn't.
>Assuming the cable is running freely and you have oiled the pivots (sounds
>like it is and you have) then other things to check are:
> - Chain not too worn and/or gunked-up


seems ok, only been used for road use and only once been out in a spot
of rain. No obvious gunk. The chain lubricant I'm using is the little
bottle supplied with a chain cleaner tool that was free with a set of
tools. I forget the brand name.

> - Mounting pivot and cage pivot rotate freely (i.e. no sticking)


seems ok.

> - Limit screws properly set (only affects biggest and smallest sprockets)


Done this but its vague/slow within the middle gears.

> - Cable tension properly set


Maybe here I might be able to do something. As yet I've not ever
undone the nut that holds the wire just used the handlebar twist
adjuster where the cable exits the handlebar assembly.

>If all that is OK and your not happy with the shifting performance then a
>better quality deraileur is probably a god idea. Unless you've not got
>anything better to spend the money on, it's not worth going for an expensive
>one. Acera or Alivio should do perfectly well. Additional consideration is
>that your frame does not have a hanger and the hanger on the Tourney mech is
>not removable/re-usable so you will need to buy a bolt-on hanger as well.
>
> Ian
>


Where do you get the bolt on hangers? Is there a part number for them?
 
W

wheelsgoround

Guest
"Martin Wilson" <[email protected]co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> Maybe here I might be able to do something. As yet I've not ever
> undone the nut that holds the wire just used the handlebar twist
> adjuster where the cable exits the handlebar assembly.
>

First thing you need to do is set the cable tension correctly. Follow these
steps:
1. Shift to the largest chainring at the front and the smallest sprocket at
the back
2. Move the rear shifter one step. The chain should shift to the second
smallest sprocket. If it doesn't shift, the cable is too loose. If it
shifts to the third smallest sprocket, the cable is too tight. If
necessary, adjust the cable tension by turning the adjusting barrel one turn
at a time to get the chain onto the second smallest sprocket (with the
shifter still in the same position)
3. With the chain still on the second smallest sprocket and the the shifter
still in the same position, turn the pedals forward and tighten the
adjusting barrel one turn at a time until you get a clear rattling noise.
Have a look and check that this rattling is caused by the chain rubbing
against the third smallest sprocket. Once you have the rattle, keep turning
the pedals and LOOSEN the barrel one quarter turn at a time until the rattle
goes away.


> Where do you get the bolt on hangers? Is there a part number for them?

There are quite a few variations. I would recommend going to a bike shop to
make sure you get one suitable for your frame & new derailleur. The
following shows an example of one:
http://www.shimano-europe.com/cycling/phpimages/product/exp_view/RD_M330.pdf


Getting a new derailleur might be more hassle than it's worth - make sure
you have got the existing one as good as you can get it before deciding to
get a new one.


Ian
 
J

Just zis Guy, you know?

Guest
On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 16:35:19 +0100, "wheelsgoround"
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>First thing you need to do is set the cable tension correctly.


Or compression ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
M

Martin Wilson

Guest

>Getting a new derailleur might be more hassle than it's worth - make sure
>you have got the existing one as good as you can get it before deciding to
>get a new one.
>
>
> Ian
>


Well in the end I had another go or two trying to improve the existing
tourney and then decided I would upgrade as I do intend to use this
bike for the long term. I bought a Deore from ebay for about £15 and a
gear hanger for £3.50. I got it on by removing the little wheels of
the derailleurs. This was about 2 weeks ago approx. The derailleur
hasn't really made any difference to downhill. Might be slightly
better on the flat but makes a lot of difference uphill. The stronger
spring is definitely much more precise under load at slowish speeds.
Also its eliminated a lot of fiddling where I'd keep trying to
slightly improve the tension of the gear cable to make it work better.
Now instead of being at the bike doing this I can be in the chair with
a cup of tea by my side having a game of 'America's Most Wanted'. As
an added bonus the deore looks fantastic and its black finish matches
the the overall black finish of the rest of the gearing and bike
itself. The tourney rear mechanism is the only component I can say I
could find fault with on the bike. The front tourney mechanism works
very well.

Probably for a lighter rider the tourney would be ok and to be honest
I could work around its weaknesses but the deore upgrade was
definitely worthwhile. However once I start using the Kona (which
admittingly is taking me longer than expected) I might do a swop round
and put the kona rear derailleur on the Pagan and the deore on the
kona.