What Passes for Communication, among Mountain Bikers

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Mike Vandeman, Feb 23, 2003.

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  1. At 02:36 PM 2/21/03 -0600, Scott G. wrote: Bedwetter.

    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> Newsgroups:
    sci.environment,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,alt.mountain -bike Sent: Saturday,
    February 22, 2003 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Mountain Bike Damage in Pleasanton Ridge Regional Park --
    Three Years Later

    > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:33:15 GMT, "GSL" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > .Mike, . .I have co-founded a mountain bike club here in Florida, and about
    one-third
    > .of the members are environmentalists.
    >
    > Wrong. NO real environmentalists (as opposed to environmental rapists masquerading as
    > "environmentalists") mountain bike.
    >
    > I also hike and run on the trail. . .Non-motorized access to nature should be promoted.
    >
    > BS. It destrous wildlife and wildlife habitat.
    >
    > It is well documented .that equestrians, off-road cyclists, and yes, hikers, all have an impact
    on
    > .nature. You know this, I know this, and fortunately so do most park .managers. . .You really
    > should consider directing your energy toward the cross-country .motocross and ATV invasion. The
    > current administration is
    pro-hydrocarbon
    > .recreation. We should all be aware of this trend and do what we can to
    stop
    > .it as they are the true destroyers of the trail.
    >
    > What are you doing about it? When the land managers find out that you are
    a
    > mountain biker, ripping up the land with knobby tires, they will know you
    are
    > nothing but a hypocrite, and won't listen.
    >
    > .Where I ride, I am having to stop and pick up bottled water jugs left by .hikers on a weekly
    > basis. The equestrians cause major erosion and leave .heaping piles of feces everywhere. Off-road
    > cyclists skid into corners
    and
    > .loosen the trail. Do I get upset? A little.
    >
    > But not about your OWN destruction.
    >
    > .But then I remind myself that when more people share a resource, such as
    a
    > .state park, the more likely we are all going to benefit from it. We
    should
    > .all be joining forces, and working toward expansion, access, and
    protection
    > .of public lands - - not against one another.
    >
    > If you would think about the wildlife for ONE SECOND, you would know what
    BS
    > this is: wildlife don't appreciate the presence of humans!
    >
    > .Consider this thought, stop hating, and start hiking & enjoying your
    life.
    >
    > I hate the destruction of nature, as EVERY responsible person should.
    >
    > .Scott G. .www.porc.org . . . . . ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > .news:[email protected]... .> February 18, 2003 .> .> Board of Directors
    > .> East Bay Regional Park District .> 2950 Peralta Oaks Court .> P.O. Box 5381 .> Oakland,
    > California 94605-0381 .> .> Re: Mountain Biking in Pleasanton Ridge Regional Park -- .> Three
    > Years Later .> .> Gentlepersons: .> .> I heard that mountain bikers will be doing trail .>
    > maintenance on the Sinbad Creek Trail next Saturday, just .> as they did three years ago. So
    > naturally I wanted to see .> why this has become necessary. Last Sunday I hiked that .> trail
    > again. I was pleased to see that many of the illegal .> trails I reported to you three years ago
    > have been marked .> "closed", and are in the process of being revegetated. The .> signs also warn
    > the mountain bikers that if they fail to .> obey the rules, mountain biking could be banned from
    > the .> park. Of course, they already knew that, and have known it .> for a long time. But who
    > cares about rules, when you're .> having fun (and no rangers are in sight)? .> .> As you will
    > recall from my March 27, 2000 letter, .> mountain bikers were crisscrossing the park with illegal
    > .> trails, riding off-trail, riding during wet conditions, .> riding through the creeks, and
    > creating deep U- or V-shaped .> grooves that make the trails difficult and dangerous to .> walk
    > on. Nothing has changed! I photographed tire tracks .> ____________________ .> through the grass
    > away from the trail, through a pile of .> gravel you imported to "improve" the trail, and through
    > the .> creeks. (It may be a while before I can send you the .> photos, since I am only halfway
    > through that roll.) It had .> rained the previous night, and there were long skid marks .> in the
    > woods near the Shady Creek Trail. .> .> Hiker-only trails (such as the Chaparral Trail in .>
    > Augustin Bernal City Park) are flat, and easy to walk on! .> ____ .> Most of the Sinbad Creek
    > Trail (particularly its narrow, .> "singletrack" section) is so badly rutted by the bikers, .>
    > that it is very difficult to walk on. Not only hikers, but .> even bikers are forced to go
    > off-trail. None of it is flat. .> ____ .> .> .> In one section I noticed that you brought in a
    > bunch .> of large, exotic rocks to try to keep the bikers in the .> trail. They stand out like a
    > sore thumb, since they look .> like no other rocks in the park. You also imbedded a .> plastic
    > matrix in that section of trail in a vain attempt .> to keep it from being damaged, and covered it
    > with exotic .> gravel. Just as I predicted, all of the gravel covering the .> plastic has been
    > eroded away, and the plastic itself is .> starting to wear away, polluting an otherwise natural
    > park .> with particles of plastic! .> .> Also, as I predicted, few people like walking or .>
    > riding on plastic, so they are starting to go around it, .> causing further erosion. And the
    > plastic must be .> dangerously slippery, when wet! In one place, the plastic .> has even sunk and
    > tilted, making it impossible to ride or .> walk on it. .> .> Near that section of the trail, I met
    > a girl walking a .> dog. She didn't have a map, so I gave her mine. When I .> mentioned all the
    > damage done by the bikers, she said "I .> can't get too mad, because I like to mountain bike,
    > too". .> This is typical of mountain bikers: deny, deny, deny. Never .> "rat" on your fellow
    > bikers. That is called "the Code of .> the Streets": criminals aren't supposed to tell on each .>
    > other. If mountain biking is harming the park, just look .> the other way. Pretend that it is not
    > a problem. Well, this .> attitude seems to have taken hold among Park District .> personnel, as
    > well. Instead of admitting that bicycles are .> incompatible with the protection of the parks'
    > resources, .> they pretend that the trail just isn't built well enough! .> .> Well, you are right!
    > Until the trail is paved, it will .> _____ .> continue to deteriorate and need constant repairing.
    > That .> is exactly why Yosemite National Park has insisted that .> bikes stick to pavement. You
    > should do the same! .> .> Another hiker I met said that he thought that the .> bikers should have
    > separate trails, since their presence on .> the fire roads makes it very unpleasant and scary to
    > hike .> there. But that is no solution: either you have to build .> many new trails for the
    > bikers, destroying a lot more .> wildlife habitat (and the impact of people extends far from .>
    > the trail!), or you have to take some trails away from the .> majority (hikers) and give them to a
    > small minority .> (bikers), which is not fair to the hikers. Besides, have .> you noticed?:
    > mountain bikers are never satisfied, no .> matter how many trails they have! .> .> When are you
    > going to face the truth?: bicycles and .> other vehicles belong on paved roads, as is the rule in
    > .> Yosemite National Park! How many years do we have to wait, .> _____ .> before you admit that
    > "education", as a way of taming .> mountain bikers, simply doesn't work?! .> ___________________
    > .> .> .> Sincerely, .> .> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D. .> [email protected] .>
    > http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .> .> === .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is
    > off-limits to .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .> years fighting
    > auto dependence and road construction.) .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .
    >
    > ===
    > I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    > help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
    >
    > http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
    Tags:


  2. On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:58:18 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:

    .At 02:36 PM 2/21/03 -0600, Scott G. wrote: .Bedwetter. . . .----- Original Message ----- .From:
    "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> .Newsgroups:
    .sci.environment,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,alt.mountain .-bike .Sent:
    Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:34 AM .Subject: Re: Mountain Bike Damage in Pleasanton Ridge Regional
    Park -- Three .Years Later . . .> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:33:15 GMT, "GSL" <[email protected]>
    wrote: .> .> .Mike, .> . .> .I have co-founded a mountain bike club here in Florida, and about
    .one-third .> .of the members are environmentalists. .> .> Wrong. NO real environmentalists (as
    opposed to environmental rapists .> masquerading as "environmentalists") mountain bike. .> .> I also
    hike and run on the trail. .> . .> .Non-motorized access to nature should be promoted. .> .> BS. It
    destrous wildlife and wildlife habitat. .> .> It is well documented .> .that equestrians, off-road
    cyclists, and yes, hikers, all have an impact .on .> .nature. You know this, I know this, and
    fortunately so do most park .> .managers. .> . .> .You really should consider directing your energy
    toward the cross-country .> .motocross and ATV invasion. The current administration is
    .pro-hydrocarbon .> .recreation. We should all be aware of this trend and do what we can to .stop .>
    .it as they are the true destroyers of the trail. .> .> What are you doing about it? When the land
    managers find out that you are .a .> mountain biker, ripping up the land with knobby tires, they
    will know you .are .> nothing but a hypocrite, and won't listen. .> .> .Where I ride, I am having to
    stop and pick up bottled water jugs left by .> .hikers on a weekly basis. The equestrians cause
    major erosion and leave .> .heaping piles of feces everywhere. Off-road cyclists skid into corners
    .and .> .loosen the trail. Do I get upset? A little. .> .> But not about your OWN destruction. .> .>
    .But then I remind myself that when more people share a resource, such as .a .> .state park, the
    more likely we are all going to benefit from it. We .should .> .all be joining forces, and working
    toward expansion, access, and .protection .> .of public lands - - not against one another. .> .> If
    you would think about the wildlife for ONE SECOND, you would know what .BS .> this is: wildlife
    don't appreciate the presence of humans! .> .> .Consider this thought, stop hating, and start hiking
    & enjoying your .life. .> .> I hate the destruction of nature, as EVERY responsible person should.
    .> .> .Scott G. .> .www.porc.org .> . .> . .> . .> . .> . .> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]>
    wrote in message .> .news:[email protected]... .> .> February 18, 2003 .>
    .> .> .> Board of Directors .> .> East Bay Regional Park District .> .> 2950 Peralta Oaks Court .>
    .> P.O. Box 5381 .> .> Oakland, California 94605-0381 .> .> .> .> Re: Mountain Biking in Pleasanton
    Ridge Regional Park -- .> .> Three Years Later .> .> .> .> Gentlepersons: .> .> .> .> I heard that
    mountain bikers will be doing trail .> .> maintenance on the Sinbad Creek Trail next Saturday, just
    .> .> as they did three years ago. So naturally I wanted to see .> .> why this has become necessary.
    Last Sunday I hiked that .> .> trail again. I was pleased to see that many of the illegal .> .>
    trails I reported to you three years ago have been marked .> .> "closed", and are in the process of
    being revegetated. The .> .> signs also warn the mountain bikers that if they fail to .> .> obey the
    rules, mountain biking could be banned from the .> .> park. Of course, they already knew that, and
    have known it .> .> for a long time. But who cares about rules, when you're .> .> having fun (and no
    rangers are in sight)? .> .> .> .> As you will recall from my March 27, 2000 letter, .> .> mountain
    bikers were crisscrossing the park with illegal .> .> trails, riding off-trail, riding during wet
    conditions, .> .> riding through the creeks, and creating deep U- or V-shaped .> .> grooves that
    make the trails difficult and dangerous to .> .> walk on. Nothing has changed! I photographed tire
    tracks .> .> ____________________ .> .> through the grass away from the trail, through a pile of .>
    .> gravel you imported to "improve" the trail, and through the .> .> creeks. (It may be a while
    before I can send you the .> .> photos, since I am only halfway through that roll.) It had .> .>
    rained the previous night, and there were long skid marks .> .> in the woods near the Shady Creek
    Trail. .> .> .> .> Hiker-only trails (such as the Chaparral Trail in .> .> Augustin Bernal City
    Park) are flat, and easy to walk on! .> .> ____ .> .> Most of the Sinbad Creek Trail (particularly
    its narrow, .> .> "singletrack" section) is so badly rutted by the bikers, .> .> that it is very
    difficult to walk on. Not only hikers, but .> .> even bikers are forced to go off-trail. None of it
    is flat. .> .> ____ .> .> .> .> .> .> In one section I noticed that you brought in a bunch .> .> of
    large, exotic rocks to try to keep the bikers in the .> .> trail. They stand out like a sore thumb,
    since they look .> .> like no other rocks in the park. You also imbedded a .> .> plastic matrix in
    that section of trail in a vain attempt .> .> to keep it from being damaged, and covered it with
    exotic .> .> gravel. Just as I predicted, all of the gravel covering the .> .> plastic has been
    eroded away, and the plastic itself is .> .> starting to wear away, polluting an otherwise natural
    park .> .> with particles of plastic! .> .> .> .> Also, as I predicted, few people like walking or
    .> .> riding on plastic, so they are starting to go around it, .> .> causing further erosion. And
    the plastic must be .> .> dangerously slippery, when wet! In one place, the plastic .> .> has even
    sunk and tilted, making it impossible to ride or .> .> walk on it. .> .> .> .> Near that section of
    the trail, I met a girl walking a .> .> dog. She didn't have a map, so I gave her mine. When I .> .>
    mentioned all the damage done by the bikers, she said "I .> .> can't get too mad, because I like to
    mountain bike, too". .> .> This is typical of mountain bikers: deny, deny, deny. Never .> .> "rat"
    on your fellow bikers. That is called "the Code of .> .> the Streets": criminals aren't supposed to
    tell on each .> .> other. If mountain biking is harming the park, just look .> .> the other way.
    Pretend that it is not a problem. Well, this .> .> attitude seems to have taken hold among Park
    District .> .> personnel, as well. Instead of admitting that bicycles are .> .> incompatible with
    the protection of the parks' resources, .> .> they pretend that the trail just isn't built well
    enough! .> .> .> .> Well, you are right! Until the trail is paved, it will .> .> _____ .> .>
    continue to deteriorate and need constant repairing. That .> .> is exactly why Yosemite National
    Park has insisted that .> .> bikes stick to pavement. You should do the same! .> .> .> .> Another
    hiker I met said that he thought that the .> .> bikers should have separate trails, since their
    presence on .> .> the fire roads makes it very unpleasant and scary to hike .> .> there. But that is
    no solution: either you have to build .> .> many new trails for the bikers, destroying a lot more .>
    .> wildlife habitat (and the impact of people extends far from .> .> the trail!), or you have to
    take some trails away from the .> .> majority (hikers) and give them to a small minority .> .>
    (bikers), which is not fair to the hikers. Besides, have .> .> you noticed?: mountain bikers are
    never satisfied, no .> .> matter how many trails they have! .> .> .> .> When are you going to face
    the truth?: bicycles and .> .> other vehicles belong on paved roads, as is the rule in .> .>
    Yosemite National Park! How many years do we have to wait, .> .> _____ .> .> before you admit that
    "education", as a way of taming .> .> mountain bikers, simply doesn't work?! .> .>
    ___________________ .> .> .> .> .> .> Sincerely, .> .> .> .> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D. .> .>
    [email protected] .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .> .> .> .> === .> .> I am working on
    creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I
    spent the previous 8 .> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .> .> .> .>
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .> . .> .> === .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is
    off-limits to .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .> years fighting
    auto dependence and road construction.) .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande . .=== .I am working
    on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent
    the previous 8 .years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .
    .http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    Mike, you're a GENIUS!
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  3. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:58:18 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote: 1,600 words of
    untrimmed reply with his usual non-standard quote delimiter and no actual content. Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
    dynamic DNS permitting)
    NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
    work. Apologies.
     
  4. Mr. E. Mann

    Mr. E. Mann Guest

    Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > At 02:36 PM 2/21/03 -0600, Scott G. wrote: Bedwetter.
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> Newsgroups:
    > sci.environment,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,alt.mou ntain -bike Sent:
    > Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Mountain Bike Damage in Pleasanton Ridge Regional
    > Park -- Three Years Later
    >
    >
    >> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:33:15 GMT, "GSL" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> .Mike, . .I have co-founded a mountain bike club here in Florida, and about
    > one-third
    >> .of the members are environmentalists.
    >>
    >> Wrong. NO real environmentalists (as opposed to environmental rapists masquerading as
    >> "environmentalists") mountain bike.
    >>
    >> I also hike and run on the trail. . .Non-motorized access to nature should be promoted.
    >>
    >> BS. It destrous wildlife and wildlife habitat.
    >>
    >> It is well documented .that equestrians, off-road cyclists, and yes, hikers, all have an impact
    > on
    >> .nature.

    Did you know wild animals also cause a lot of damage to nature? They dig holes, crap all over the
    place, tear up trees and all kinds of other horrible things. Maybe we should go out and kill all the
    wild animals to help save nature.
     
  5. X

    X Guest

    Mikey,

    I for one find animals rights activist extremely annoying. Have you ever had a furry woodland
    creature just sit there and stare at you? Kind of Pisses you off doesn't it?! I find it hard to
    concentrate on tearing up any pristine mountain trails, when I'm riding along scratching my nuts.
    It's hard work trying to find a decent short cut though those damned groomed, and marked trails.
    Although, I don't get too upset if if a horse or dog was to take a dump in the middle of one. I
    just add my own logs to the steaming pile of filth. -Screw those hippy save the world activist. I
    hope they step in it! I don't get much of a chance to get out biking much these days, as my SUV
    only gets 10 mpg and it's a long drive up to the nearest trail. I guess I'll just stay home and
    watch cable....

    X
     
  6. Bikebreath

    Bikebreath Guest

    "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:58:18 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote: 1,600 words of
    > untrimmed reply with his usual non-standard quote delimiter and no actual content. Guy
    > ===
    > ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
    > dynamic DNS permitting)
    > NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
    > work. Apologies.

    Vandemen has been spewing one sided blather probably before I got on the net in 1998. He don't like
    no mtb's...got it? He doesn't much like cars either. I'm a die hard mtber and I don't like cars, but
    just the fact I like mtb's make me his enemy. Would he do better if he could bend a tad to accept me
    and other mtber's that don't like cars? He just can't do it. The man is the most stubborn
    son-of-a-gun I've ever know, [and that ain't no compliment, Mike.]
     
  7. On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:57:34 -0500, "x" <[email protected]> wrote:

    .Mikey, . .I for one find animals rights activist extremely annoying. Have you ever .had a furry
    woodland creature just sit there and stare at you? Kind of .Pisses you off doesn't it?! I find it
    hard to concentrate on tearing up any .pristine mountain trails, when I'm riding along scratching my
    nuts. It's .hard work trying to find a decent short cut though those damned groomed, and .marked
    trails. Although, I don't get too upset if if a horse or dog was to .take a dump in the middle of
    one. I just add my own logs to the steaming .pile of filth. -Screw those hippy save the world
    activist. I hope they step .in it! I don't get much of a chance to get out biking much these days,
    as .my SUV only gets 10 mpg and it's a long drive up to the nearest trail. I .guess I'll just stay
    home and watch cable....

    Did you say something?
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  8. On 25 Feb 2003 10:51:05 -0800, [email protected] (bikebreath) wrote:

    ."Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>... .> On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:58:18 GMT, Mike
    Vandeman <[email protected]> .> wrote: 1,600 words of untrimmed reply with his usual non-standard
    .> quote delimiter and no actual content. .> Guy .> === .> ** WARNING ** This posting may contain
    traces of irony. .> http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and dynamic DNS permitting) .> NOTE: BT
    Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old .> mail addresses may no longer work.
    Apologies. . .Vandemen has been spewing one sided blather probably before I got on .the net in 1998.
    He don't like no mtb's...got it? He doesn't much .like cars either. I'm a die hard mtber and I don't
    like cars, but .just the fact I like mtb's make me his enemy.

    YOU aren't my enemy. MOUNTAIN BIKING is my enemy. Get it?

    Would he do better if .he could bend a tad to accept me and other mtber's that don't like .cars?
    He just can't do it. The man is the most stubborn son-of-a-gun .I've ever know, [and that ain't no
    compliment, Mike.]

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
    help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  9. Backpacker

    Backpacker Guest

    "x" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Mikey,
    >
    > I for one find animals rights activist extremely annoying. Have you ever had a furry woodland
    > creature just sit there and stare at you? Kind of Pisses you off doesn't it?!

    Only until I pull the trigger, then I feel much better.

    > I find it hard to concentrate on tearing up any pristine mountain trails, when I'm riding along
    > scratching my nuts. It's hard work trying to find a decent short cut though those damned groomed,
    > and marked trails.

    You can do it though. The easiest thing is to just start a big fire, the weekend before you go
    biking. Then you can see the topography a lot better, not to mention all the new growth it
    encourages later on - the animals love that shit.

    > I don't get much of a chance to get out biking much these days, as my SUV only gets 10 mpg and
    > it's a long drive up to the nearest trail. I guess I'll just stay home and watch cable.... X

    :)
     
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