"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > >
> > > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > As far as I know, there are no studies which really proof
> > that
> > > > > > carbohydrates cause obesity. But there are no studies either
> >
> > > > which
> > > > > > proof
> > > > > > otherwise.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually there are studies that prove that weight loss is
> > > > achievable
> > > > > with caloric reduction independent of the macronutrient
> > > > composition of
> > > > > the food being ingested.
> > > >
> > > > Well, yes. Weight loss is also achievable with caloric
> > restriction
> > > > independent of the weight of the food.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If the kinds of food is held invariant, caloric restriction is
> > weight
> > > restriction.
> >
> > If, yes. But if you replace bread or butter with broccoli, you can
> > achieve a reduction in calories without a reduction in weight.
> >
>
> For many folks, not a lasting reduction.
As long as they continue to eat broccoli instead of bread and butter.
> >
> > > >
> > > > The question is, to what extend patients can follow such a diet
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > long run and how healthy that is.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Why would eating less be unhealthy if someone is eating excessive
> > > amounts?
> >
> > Restricting the amount of food when someone is eating all the wrong
> > things is surely better than overeating these things.
>
> It's also better if someone is overeating the *right* things.
People rarely overeat on the right things.
> > However they might
> > be better of, if they just ate healthier food (of course we would
> > have
> > to discuss what those healthier foods are).
> >
> > > >
> > > > Or when it comes to the causes of obesity:
> > >
> > > Overeating.
> > >
> > > > What causes people to overeat
> > > > in the first place?
> > > >
> > >
> > > It is an innate tendency.
> >
> > The how do you explain that most people are more or less normal
> > weight
> > until some time in life when they begin to gain weight?
>
> Increasing food availability.
When I was a child my parents never limited the amount of food I was
allowed to eat. However, I wasn't allowed to eat as much sweets as I
would have liked to and we rarely drank sodas. In wasn't overweight at
that time.
> > Why are adults
> > more prone to obesity than children?
>
> They've stopped growing lengthwise. They also have more money (ie
> more access to food).
>
> > Perhaps because adults have begun
> > to develop insulin resistance?
> >
>
> Obesity leads to insulin resistance in the susceptible. Not the other
> way around.
This does not become any more likely by repeating it.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > This is consistent with the observation that obesity in not
> > > > rampant in
> > > > > parts of world where the majority of the world's population is
> >
> > > > eating
> > > > > proportionately higher amounts of carbs (ie Rice).
> > > >
> > > > Rice is better than potatoes and white bread because it has a
> > lower
> > > > glycemic index.
> > >
> > > Actually, it has the same glycemic index.
> >
> > According to this source, this isn't true, parboiled rice is listed
> > with
> > 68, white bread is listed with 100, boiled or mashed potatoes with
> > 104
> > and french fries even with 107:
> >
> > http://www.diabetes.ca/Section_About/glycemic.asp
> >
>
> The steamed white rice that is the common staple in Asia is *not*
> parboiled rice. It is likely as digestible as instant rice.
>
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And of course it is much better than sugar, because it contains
> > no
> > > > fructose and fructose is known to cause insulin resistance.
> > >
> > > Being overweight (plus inherent susceptibility) causes insulin
> > > resistance.
> >
> > Feeding rats a diet high in fructose makes them insulin resistant in
> > a
> > matter of weeks. This is one of the standard methods to produce rats
> >
> > with diabetes.
> >
>
> Does this really contradict what I just wrote?
It is evidence that being overweight is at the very least not the only
possibility to become insulin resistant when you are a mammal.
> >
> > > > As long as
> > > > your not insulin resistant, you can probably get away with
> > consuming
> > > >
> > > > considerable amounts of carbs.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Until you become obese causing insulin resistance if you are
> > > predisposed to it.
> >
> > People don't usually become obese, if they are not insulin
> > resistant.
> >
>
> Anyone can overeat to obesity.
Did you ever meet a person that was obsese and didn't consume large
amounts of carbs? Except those of course who went on a low carb diet
*after* they became obese.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So scientists have to make up their mind on less solid
> > evidence.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Most scientists already *know* that carbohydrates do not cause
> >
> > > > > obesity.
> > > >
> > > > They *think* that they know.
> > >
> > > They simply know.
> > >
> > > > That is not necessarily the same.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Prisoners fed prison-fare of only bread and water do not become
> > obese.
> >
> > I assume prisoners are usually fed less than two pounds of bread per
> > day
> >
>
> They are.
So you agree that they might become obese if they were fed more than two
pounds of bread each day?
> > ...
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > You
> > > > > > believe that carbohydrates are innocent, other people
> > believe
> > > > > > otherwise.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Go ahead and cite a reference where a credentialed scientist
> > > > states
> > > > > the latter.
> > > >
> > > > "Carbohydrates with high glycemic indexes and high glycemic
> > loads
> > > > produce substantial increases in blood glucose and insulin
> > levels
> > > > after
> > > > ingestion. Within a few hours after their consumption, blood
> > sugar
> > > > levels begin to decline rapidly due to an exaggerated increase
> > in
> > > > insulin secretion. A profound state of hunger is created. The
> > > > continued
> > > > intake of high-glycemic load meals is associated with an
> > increased
> > > > risk
> > > > of chronic diseases such as obesity, cardiovascular disease, and
> >
> > > > diabetes. "
> > > >
> > > > Low-glycemic-load diets: impact on obesity and chronic diseases.
> >
> > > >
> > > > Bell SJ, Sears B.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ok, you cite a scientist(s) stating that high-glycemic load meals
> > may
> > > increase risk for obesity.
> > >
> > > Now cite one that says carbohydrates *causes* obesity.
> > >
> > > Two points to be made here:
> > >
> > > (1) Cause is not synonymous with risk.
> > >
> > > (2) Carbohydrates is not synonymous with high-glycemic load meals.
> >
> > Most carbohydrates in our nutrition come in form of high-glycemic
> > load
> > meals.
> >
> > Of course there is nothing wrong with the carbohydrates in, say,
> > broccoli. I never claimed that all carbohydrates were equally
> > dangerous.
> >
>
> You still have not addressed the above points.
I adressed the second one. As to cause and risk: Let's put it that way:
Consuming large amount of high-glycemic carbohydrates is a risk-factor
for becoming obese. Consuming large amounts of fructose is another,
probably even more important.
[...]
> > > > > > > > because it
> > > > > > > > produces reactive hypoglycaemias.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hypoglycemia in insulin-resistant individuals come largely
> >
> > > > from
> > > > > > > overconsumption of simple sugars and not from cutting out
> > > > either
> > > > > > fat
> > > > > > > or protein.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are aware of the fact that for example most kinds of
> > bread
> > > > raise
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > blood sugar as much and as quickly as does sucrose, if not
> > more
> > > > so?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Not a fact to be aware of.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyone who has taken a biochemistry course can explain this to
> >
> > > > you.
> > > >
> > > > Then go ahead.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The gut can not directly absorb long polymers of glucose. It can
> > > directly absorb many mono and disaccharides.
> >
> > Can you give source that provides evidence that sucrose is directly
> > absorbed in larger quantities?
> >
>
> Certainly, here you go:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/rtuv
They don't write that sucrose enters the blood stream as a disaccharide.
According to my biochemistry textbook (Buddecke, Grundriß der
Biochemie), mammals aren't even able to utilze sucrose if fed
parenteral.
> >
> > However that may be, you will be aware of the fact that sucrose is
> > composed of glucose and fructose and that fructose does not raise
> > the
> > blood sugar nearly as much or as quickly as does glucose.
>
> And you claimed earlier that fructose can cause diabetes in rats.
Yes, I did. Fructose daos not do this by raising the blood sugar,
however.
> > Since starch
> > only contains glucose, the time to break it down is more than
> > compensated by the fact, that it contains twice the amount of
> > glucose
> > than does sucrose.
> >
>
> So?
So there is twice the amount of glucose to raise the blood sugar.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Besides you have a high level of
> > > > > > > > insulin in your blood which tends to prevent wheight
> > loss.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Insulin resistance leading to need for elevated levels of
> > > > insulin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > happen *after* weight gain and not before.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your opinion.
> > > > >
> > > > > My clinical experience plus what is currently known about
> > > > Metabolic
> > > > > Syndrome (MetS). I have never seen a thin type 2 diabetic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nor have I ever seen a thin person with MetS.
> > > >
> > > > Well, Eades and Eades (Protein Power) have.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Are they physicians?
> >
> > Yes, they are. And you don't have to take my word for it. Please
> > fell
> > free to contact them at their office: 11205 Anderson Road, Suite
> > 130,
> > Little Rock, AR 72212. Michael R Eades, M. D. and Mary Dan Eades, M.
> > D.
> > (They give this information in their book).
> >
>
> Interesting. No Eades in AR according to the AMA database.
>
> So in which state are they licensed to practice medicine?
I don't know. I tried to check that on the Internet and found out, that
they appear to have founded the "Arkansas Center for Health and Weight
Control". As to why they don't appear in this database I have no idea.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > It remains to be seen wether it is based on facts. Surely
> > > > > > you can point to a study back up your thesis?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Simply google "Metabolic Syndrome" and "Syndrome X" for
> > literally
> > > > > hundreds of references.
> > > >
> > > > Should be easy for you then to cite just one study that supports
> >
> > > > your
> > > > position.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I have in the past. Use Google.
> >
> > So you can't. Thougth so.
> >
>
> Use google.
So you can't. Doesn't surprise me.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For another opinion:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "It is concluded that hyperinsulinemia is a pathological
> > driving
> > > >
> > > > > > force
> > > > > > in producing both incipient obesity by overstimulating white
> >
> > > > adipose
> > > > > >
> > > > > > tissue and liver metabolic activity, and concomitantly
> > producing
> > > >
> > > > > > incipient muscle insulin resistance."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hyperinsulinemia and its Impact on Obesity and Insulin
> > > > Resistance
> > > > > > Reference:
> > > > > > Cusin, I., Rohner-Jeanrenaud, F., Terrettaz, J., et al.,
> > > > > > "Hyperinsulinemia and its Impact on Obesity and Insulin
> > > > Resistance,"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > International Journal of Obesity and Related Metabolic
> > > > Disorders,
> > > > > > 16(Suppl 4), 1992, pages S1-S11.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-61705.html)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Interesting article where the investigators implanted insulin
> > > > pumps in
> > > > > otherwise healthy rates and overfed these animals to prevent
> > > > > hypoglycemia. These animals became overweight (because they
> > were
> > > > > overfed).
> > > > >
> > > > > Imho, the authors are erroneous in their conclusion because
> > they
> > > > could
> > > > > not control for weight gain.
> > > >
> > > > According to the abstract the elevated insulin caused the larger
> >
> > > > food
> > > > intake.
> > >
> > > This is where your limited knowledge of physiology and
> > biochemistry
> > > fails you.
> >
> > Limited though my knowledge of phyiology and biochemistry doubtless
> > is,
> > I begin to suspect that it might be greater than yours.
> >
>
> See above.
>
> >
> > > > They don't say anything about offering them more food than the
> > > > control group or about force-feeding the rats. And they say that
> > the
> > > >
> > > > rats _got_ hypoglycemia. So this does not sound as if they
> > overfed
> > > > them
> > > > in order to prevent this.
> > >
> > > Rat die from hypoglycemia. That the rats survived to be studied
> > > proves they were fed more.
> >
> > "Hyperinsulinemia produced by prior insulin treatment (i.e. prior
> > insulinization of the normal rats) resulted in a well tolerated
> > hypoglycemia, increased food intake and body weight gain."
> >
>
> Sounds like you just affirmed the rats got more food and consequently
> gained weight.
Sounds like you tend to read in such articles whatever suits you.
If the ad libitum intake of the rats increased, this is due to the
insulin and is evidence for the role of insulin in producing obesity.
If they were offered more food than the rats in the control group, there
would be no point at all in doing this study. The authors can't possibly
be that stupid.
> >
> > So unless you want to suggest that the authors are lying, your
> > statement
> > that rats die from hypoglycemia must be erroneous.
> >
>
> See above.
Above I cite the authors that the rats showed "a well tolerated
hypoglycemia".
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Problem is that research
> > > > > > > > > studies indicate that such "dieting" has dismal
> > long-term
> > > > > > success
> > > > > > > > rates..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Could you point to such a study?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/14/1792?etoc
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What has this to do with low-carb diets?
> > > > >
> > > > > It has to do with dieting in general. Reread the discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Well, small wonder they failed, if they used a low-fat diet.
> > This
> > > > proves
> > > > nothing about the efficacy of low-carb dieting.
> > > >
> > >
> > > They don't specify LC or otherwise.
> >
> > So it might well have worked, if they had used a low-carb approach.
> >
>
> They might have.
>
> >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > It is my understanding that physicians frequently prescribe
> > > > diuretics in
> > > > order to lower blood pressure.
> > >
> > > Not to everybody.
> >
> > But to those who suffer from water retension, I believe.
> >
>
> Again, not to everybody.
The diuresis will probably be much stronger in those who suffer from
water retension.
> >
> > > > And now you claim diuresis to be a bad
> > > > thing.
> > >
> > > For folks who don't need it. Yes.
> > >
> > > > That there might be medical conditions that make diuresis
> > > > dangerous is another question.
> > >
> > > We don't put diuretics in drinking water now do we?
> >
> > Where I live, they don't even put vitamin C into the water. That's
> > not
> > to say that vitamin C is unhealthy.
> >
>
> We do put flouride.
We don't.
> >
> > > > Most of us don't have failing kidneys,
> > > > however.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Majority rules, eh?
> >
> > I believe in Democracy 
> >
> > Ok, so for _some_ people, severe restriction of carbohydrates might
> > pose
> > them at some risks.
>
> Glad you finally agree.
I agree that there might be conditions that make ketogenic diets
unadvisable. That's why you should do this together with a physician.
Thorsten
--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"
(Theodosius Dobzhansky)
