What percentage of a cholesterol decrease can be attributed to statins ?



It seems to me I heard somewhere that Sharon Hope wrote in article
<zeNgb.709841$uu5.116644@sccrnsc04>:

>What if you gave your child a pill while he went to school from K-12, and
>each year he advanced only half as much as his average classmates? Would
>you be pleased that he had achieved a "statistically significant
>improvement" by performing at the middle of 5th grade-equivalent as a
>graduating senior in the 12th grade? Would you be recommending that pill to
>your friends with children?


>Dr. Muldoon's research study, which was conducted for only 6 months, showed
>some horrifying results. Both the placebo and the statin groups underwent
>neuropsych testing before the treatment, and they were tested again after
>only 6 months.


>ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the statin group had a measurable DECLINE in their
>own performance (they scored lower than before on a test they had just taken
>6 months ago) in Attention, Psychomotor Speed, and Mental Flexibility.


[...]

>This is not a 'trend' nor is it a 'small percentage' nor is it a simple
>majority, it is BINARY. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of those who took statins,
>declined mentally in some areas and failed to thrive in other areas, after
>only 6 months!


This causes me to wonder about the protocols and design of Dr. Muldoon's
studies. One would expect that if 100% of statin users develop these
symptoms within six months clinical doctors might have noticed it in
their patients.

I've been on statins for five years, and I don't think I have any of
these neurotoxic effects. Of course if my mental flexibility,
attention, cognition, and memory have been damaged I might not be aware
of it. :)

>Looking at these numbers from my perspective, with a 55 year old husband,
>twice a CEO, who was on Lipitor for 4 years and is now totally disabled with
>muscle wasting, pain, cramping, polyneuropathy, transcient global amnesia,
>aphasia, having concentration problems and scoring BELOW THE 1 PERCENTILE IN
>SHORT-TERM MEMORY, it is obvious that the Muldoon results show a pattern of
>continuing degeneration, perhaps accelerating degeneration, but only the
>first 6 months of this progression was measured.

[...]

>Unless and until the FDA acknowledges the adverse mental and cognitive
>effects of statins, there will be no research into screening out statin
>patients who would be more likely to sustain such a loss. There will also
>be no research into the issues such as 1) is this permanent brain damage?
>and 2) is there any kind of treatment to restore some cognitive and memory
>function?


>"Jim Chinnis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Bill" <***@yy.zz> wrote in part:


>> I have found the same thing in reading through Sharon's cited articles.

>One
>> which had been described as finding that 100% of the statin treatment

>group
>> suffered cognitive decline actually found a statistically significant
>> improvement in memory in the treatment group, just as one example.

--
Don
[email protected]
 
On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 18:01:39 -0400, Bob Pastorio <[email protected]>
wrote:

>You know...


Here's what I know. You learn at the speed of a snail or as you might
call them whilst eating gluttonously, escargot.

Here's what you need to do.

Answer the questions regarding your quad bypass, your
smoking, your obesity and why, with all the information known to you,
by your own admission, you nearly killed yourself with a lousy diet,
gluttony, excesses and no exercise, you can keep your hands off your
keyboard and in your pants.

It will be the only thing you will have left to play with, Cheffie.
I'm no longer interested in your pitiful TROLLING and useless
demagoguery.

Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
 
On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 18:05:34 -0400, Bob Pastorio <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Oh, I learned about you...


Learn? Learn? Have you learned that all your postings and OCD TROLLING
of me, all that **** I never read, is a voluminous waste of your time?

Wanna know why?

Until you answer the questions regarding your quad bypass, your
smoking, your obesity and why, with all the information known to you,
by your own admission, you nearly killed yourself with a lousy diet,
gluttony, excesses and no exercise, you can keep your hands off your
keyboard and in your pants.

It will be the only thing you will have left to play with, Cheffie.
I'm no longer interested in your pitiful TROLLING and useless
demagoguery.

Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
 
On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 18:08:08 -0400, Bob Pastorio <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Since you're too shitskulled...


Me? Me? When will you get it through your Italian Head of Marble?

Until you answer the questions regarding your quad bypass, your
smoking, your obesity and why, with all the information known to you,
by your own admission, you nearly killed yourself with a lousy diet,
gluttony, excesses and no exercise, you can keep your hands off your
keyboard and in your pants.

It will be the only thing you will have left to play with, Cheffie.
I'm no longer interested in your pitiful TROLLING and useless
demagoguery.

Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
 
Blue Mu_n <[email protected]> wrote in part:

>>Jim Chinnis <[email protected]> wrote:


>>>Most everyone except we have seen a remarkable amount of people
>>>successful on the 2PDiet. which makes it the glowing exception to the
>>>commercial diet rule.


>>Sounds positively identical to every commercial diet.

>
>What?


Every commercial diet that I know of has promoters and adherents who say, "we
have seen a remarkable amount of people successful on the (fill-in-the-blank)
diet."
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
 
Blue Mu_n <[email protected]> wrote in part:

>On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 20:51:49 GMT, Jim Chinnis
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The truth I believe is that no long-term controlled study of low-carb diets
>>has been published. I remain an agnostic as to how much carb is best in the
>>diet.
>>
>>Others here--most notably Dr. Chung--have disagreed.
>>
>>No one has cited a long-term controlled study of low-carb diets, however.

>
>
>Then what do we have as the next best solution?
>
>How's this one. Listen to a cardiologist who deal with the ill effects
>of low carb on a daily basis.
>
>No good?
>
>Your turn.


Me? I'm in favor of pressing for some real data. It would be enormously
beneficial to millions of people to have some good controlled long-term
studies done on these issues.

It's fine for a cardiologist to say he sees the ill effects of low-carb diets
on a daily basis. It's not fine for him to say there are conclusive or
overwhelming data or published studies demonstrating the inferiority of
low-carb diets, because there aren't.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
 
Owen Lowe wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Yes, it's for raising LDL cholesterol.

>
> Yes, but it appears to raise HDL even more as well as significantly
> reduce TriG's.


It is oxidized LDL (oxLDL) that makes the lipid core of atheromatous
plaques grow. More LDL means more to oxidize. Make things more
pro-inflammatory with hyperketonemia, hyperhomocysteinemia, and gout and
you'll make even more oxLDL.

Go ahead and make my cardiology practice grow.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
 
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >
> > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> > >
> > > >> "CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations

> for or
> > > >> against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among

> participants
> > > >> older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets of

> 20 g/d
> > > >> or less of carbohydrates."
> > > >>
> > > >> NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.
> > >
> > > No matter how much faith you have that a low carbohydrate diet fails in

> the
> > > long term, and no matter how often you claim this has been established

> in
> > > published studies, the latter is not the case.
> > >

> >
> > However, the former is the case. I see patients that have failed LC

> dieting all
> > the time, so I do *know* firsthand.

>
> How many fail on other diets?


Have *never* seen a heart patient who was doing either Ornish or Pritikin
*before* developing heart disease..

> I am sure you must have the stats and
> therefore know first hand.


I do.

> Come on Andy, give us the numbers from your
> first hand experience.
>


The low-carbers I see typically have experience with multiple "fad" diets.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
 
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 00:09:20 GMT, Jim Chinnis
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Every commercial diet that I know of has promoters and adherents who say, "we
>have seen a remarkable amount of people successful on the (fill-in-the-blank)
>diet."


We agree. They are massive failures with hypocrites who lead their
charge.

Then there is the 2PDiet.

Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
 
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 00:13:57 GMT, Jim Chinnis
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>How's this one. Listen to a cardiologist who deal with the ill effects
>>of low carb on a daily basis.
>>
>>No good?
>>
>>Your turn.

>
>Me? I'm in favor of pressing for some real data. It would be enormously
>beneficial to millions of people to have some good controlled long-term
>studies done on these issues.


Sure would. Sure wish Atkins had cared as much about this subject as
we do.

>It's fine for a cardiologist to say he sees the ill effects of low-carb diets
>on a daily basis. It's not fine for him to say there are conclusive or
>overwhelming data or published studies demonstrating the inferiority of
>low-carb diets, because there aren't.


Sure are. They have been posted and Google has the posts.

Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
 
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> >
> > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Blue Mu_n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > > > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"
> > > <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > > > > > > > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not been

> more
> > > data
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > 30
> > > > > > > > >years?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and any
> > > studies
> > > > > > > > of his patient population.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Care to cite references?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such studies,

> one
> > > would
> > > > > > expect that there would be no references to be found.
> > > > >
> > > > > Were are the references that state he refused to participate in

> studies?
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Don't duck the above question, Andy. Where are the references that

> prove
> > > that he refused to participate in studies.

> >
> > Don't know of any.

>
> Then you were caught not telling the truth, weren't you Andy.


You caught me writing truthfully again. Congrats.

>
> You stated he refused to participate in studies and now you can not back up
> your statement.
>


Hardly.

>
> >
> > > I am sure you are aware of lible
> > > laws - you seem very interested in them.

> >
> > Enough to spell it correctly.

> Oh, I am sure you are. You seem to spend as much or more time threatening
> law suits than anything else.


Sorry you feel threatened.

>
> >
> > > NOTE: Refusing to turn over an
> > > individuals private medical records is NOT refusing to participate in
> > > studies.

> >
> > Is there documentation that Dr. Atkins refused on the grounds of patient
> > privacy?

>
> Don't need any.


Then why bring it up?

> It is the law.


It is now but wasn't then.

> But then again, I don't suppose YOU let the
> law bother you.


Writing truthfully is that liberating.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
 
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >
> > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> > >
> > > >> "CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations

> for or
> > > >> against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among

> participants
> > > >> older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets of

> 20 g/d
> > > >> or less of carbohydrates."
> > > >>
> > > >> NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.
> > >
> > > No matter how much faith you have that a low carbohydrate diet fails in

> the
> > > long term, and no matter how often you claim this has been established

> in
> > > published studies, the latter is not the case.
> > >

> >
> > However, the former is the case. I see patients that have failed LC

> dieting all
> > the time, so I do *know* firsthand.

>
> How many fail on other diets? I am sure you must have the stats and
> therefore know first hand. Come on Andy, give us the numbers from your
> first hand experience.


Too many to keep track of.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
 
Full Mu_n <[email protected]> wrote in part:

>>It's fine for a cardiologist to say he sees the ill effects of low-carb diets
>>on a daily basis. It's not fine for him to say there are conclusive or
>>overwhelming data or published studies demonstrating the inferiority of
>>low-carb diets, because there aren't.

>
>Sure are. They have been posted and Google has the posts.


BS.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
 
Jim Chinnis wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>
> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >
> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:

> <snip>
> >However, the former is the case. I see patients that have failed LC dieting all
> >the time, so I do *know* firsthand.

>
> Not all LC dieting is the same. And what doctors (and all of us) "know"
> firsthand often turns out to be wrong when a careful study is finally done.
>


Agree. However, such studies will not change observations.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
 
"Blue Mu_n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:47:57 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >How many fail on other diets?

>
> Most everyone except we have seen a remarkable amount of people
> successful on the 2PDiet. which makes it the glowing exception to the
> commercial diet rule.


Seems to contradict Andrew Ben-Hua Chung who stated there are NO long term
results for his TPD and that he was in no hurry to compile such.
 
"Full Mu_n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 00:09:20 GMT, Jim Chinnis
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Every commercial diet that I know of has promoters and adherents who say,

"we
> >have seen a remarkable amount of people successful on the

(fill-in-the-blank)
> >diet."

>
> We agree. They are massive failures with hypocrites who lead their
> charge.
>
> Then there is the 2PDiet.


With the biggest hypocrites of all.
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Jim Chinnis wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> > > >
> > > > >> "CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make

recommendations
> > for or
> > > > >> against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among

> > participants
> > > > >> older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for

diets of
> > 20 g/d
> > > > >> or less of carbohydrates."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.
> > > >
> > > > No matter how much faith you have that a low carbohydrate diet fails

in
> > the
> > > > long term, and no matter how often you claim this has been

established
> > in
> > > > published studies, the latter is not the case.
> > > >
> > >
> > > However, the former is the case. I see patients that have failed LC

> > dieting all
> > > the time, so I do *know* firsthand.

> >
> > How many fail on other diets?

>
> Have *never* seen a heart patient who was doing either Ornish or Pritikin
> *before* developing heart disease..
>
> > I am sure you must have the stats and
> > therefore know first hand.

>
> I do.


Then post the data.
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Jim Chinnis wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> > > >
> > > > >> "CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make

recommendations
> > for or
> > > > >> against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among

> > participants
> > > > >> older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for

diets of
> > 20 g/d
> > > > >> or less of carbohydrates."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.
> > > >
> > > > No matter how much faith you have that a low carbohydrate diet fails

in
> > the
> > > > long term, and no matter how often you claim this has been

established
> > in
> > > > published studies, the latter is not the case.
> > > >
> > >
> > > However, the former is the case. I see patients that have failed LC

> > dieting all
> > > the time, so I do *know* firsthand.

> >
> > How many fail on other diets? I am sure you must have the stats and
> > therefore know first hand. Come on Andy, give us the numbers from your
> > first hand experience.

>
> Too many to keep track of.


Which translates that you don't have a clue.
 
"Blue Mu_n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 07:32:23 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Where is the evidence for or against your TPD?

>
> Sitting with the hundreds of people, many who have given their
> testimonials right here on SMC.


HUNDREDS???
References please.
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Owen Lowe wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Not sure why normal weight women would sign up for a
> > > low-carb diet study.

> >
> > LC - it's not just for weight loss anymore.

>
> Yes, it's for raising LDL cholesterol.

And for raising HDL far more than raising LDL and for drastically reducing
Triglycerides.