"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > >
> > > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe Smigiel wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > > > > and helped prevent some weight loss. I could do fewer
> > > > > > carbs...)
> > > > >
> > > > > Carbs don't cause obesity.
> > > >
> > > > A growing number of scientists will disagree with you on that.
> > >
> > > If that were true, it should be easy for you to cite research
> > studies
> > > describing carbohydrates causing obesity.
> > >
> > > Please don't cite Dr. Atkins:
> > >
> > > (1) He's dead.
> > >
> > > (2) He wasn't a scientist. Being a diet guru was not the same.
> >
> > I didn't say there were studies that show that carbohydrates cause
> > obesity.
> >
>
> Go ahead and reread what you wrote and follow the logic of the
> discourse.
As far as I know, there are no studies which really proof that
carbohydrates cause obesity. But there are no studies either which proof
otherwise.
So scientists have to make up their mind on less solid evidence. You
believe that carbohydrates are innocent, other people believe otherwise.
> >
> > > > However
> > > > that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority
> > of obese
> > > > people to lose weight.
> > >
> > > Cutting out anything will cause weight loss.
> >
> > But if you are insulinresistent, and a vast majority of obese
> > persons
> > are, cutting out fat and protein leaves you hungry most of the time
>
> Cutting out anything is going to cause some hunger. Hyperketonemia to
> suppress hunger is not a good thing.
I don't think so.
> >
> > because it
> > produces reactive hypoglycaemias.
>
> Hypoglycemia in insulin-resistant individuals come largely from
> overconsumption of simple sugars and not from cutting out either fat
> or protein.
You are aware of the fact that for example most kinds of bread raise the
blood sugar as much and as quickly as does sucrose, if not more so?
> > Besides you have a high level of
> > insulin in your blood which tends to prevent wheight loss.
> >
>
> Insulin resistance leading to need for elevated levels of insulin
> happen *after* weight gain and not before.
Your opinion. It remains to be seen wether it is based on facts. Surely
you can point to a study back up your thesis?
For another opinion:
"It is concluded that hyperinsulinemia is a pathological driving force
in producing both incipient obesity by overstimulating white adipose
tissue and liver metabolic activity, and concomitantly producing
incipient muscle insulin resistance."
Hyperinsulinemia and its Impact on Obesity and Insulin Resistance
Reference:
Cusin, I., Rohner-Jeanrenaud, F., Terrettaz, J., et al.,
"Hyperinsulinemia and its Impact on Obesity and Insulin Resistance,"
International Journal of Obesity and Related Metabolic Disorders,
16(Suppl 4), 1992, pages S1-S11.
(
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-61705.html)
> >
> > > Problem is that research
> > > studies indicate that such "dieting" has dismal long-term success
> > rates..
> >
> > Could you point to such a study?
>
> http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/14/1792?etoc
What has this to do with low-carb diets? They don't mention the kind of
the commercial program. Under "Author Affiliations" however, they list
Weight Watchers International, so that we can hazard a guess about the
nature of this program. I believe Weight Watchers isn't really low-carb,
rather the contrary.
>
> > Of course people have to stick to this
> > way of life, if they return to the old eating habits, they will
> > again
> > gain wheight.
> >
> > > > In addition, it offers a whole host of other
> > > > health benefits like reduced bloodpressure
> > >
> > > That happens from losing weight.
> >
> > No.
>
> Sorry, yes.
Eades and Eades (Protein Power) state otherwise. They claim to have
successfully treated hypertension caused by fluid retension in
normalweight patients with their low-carb diet.
> > Hyperinsulinemia (elevated levels of insulin in the blood) causes
> > fluid retension and thus high bloodpressure (there are other ways
> > insulin promotes high bloodpressure, but this is probably most
> > important).
>
> If that were true, then medications lowering insulin levels (by
> increasing insulin sensitivity) would be known for blood pressure
> lowering properties. They aren't.
Oh, they are, even if you may not be aware of it:
"In conclusion, metformin treatment increased insulin action, lowered
blood pressure, improved the metabolic risk factor profile and tended to
increase the fibrinolytic activity in these mildly hypertensive
subjects. These results support the view that insulin resistance plays a
role in hypertension, and may open up a new field for the alleviation of
abnormalities associated with cardiovascular disease."
J Intern Med. 1991 Feb;229(2):181-7.
Treating insulin resistance in hypertension with metformin reduces both
blood pressure and metabolic risk factors.
Landin K, Tengborn L, Smith U.
(
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1900072&dopt=Abstract)
"There was a significant decrease in blood lipids (trygliceride and
cholesterol), an increase in HDL-cholesterol and a reduction in blood
pressure in diabetics taking metformin"
Eur J Clin Pharmacol. 1993;44(2):107-12.
Metformin for obese, insulin-treated diabetic patients: improvement in
glycaemic control and reduction of metabolic risk factors.
Giugliano D, Quatraro A, Consoli G, Minei A, Ceriello A, De Rosa N,
D'Onofrio F.
(
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8453955&dopt=Abstract)
> > As lowcarb diets reduce the amount of insulin in the blood,
> > the bloodpressure goes down.
>
> With LC diets blood pressure does down with weightloss +/- diuresis
> and vasodilatory effects of hyperketonemia.
So ketosis does not seem to be that bad after all.
> > This works even in people who are not
> > overweight to begin with.
> >
>
> See above.
>
> >
> > > > and lower triglcerides.
> > >
> > > This also happens largely from losing weight.
> >
> > Again, no. If you honestly believe this, I urge you to inform
> > yourself
> > about this, to the benefit of your patients.
> >
> > To get you started:
> >
> > "Triglycerides. The most dramatic and
> > consistent lipid response to a very-low-carbo-hydrate
> > diet is a moderate to large decrease in
> > fasting triglyceride levels and postprandial
> > triglyceride responses to a fat-rich meal,14
> > both independent risk factors for cardiovascu-lar disease.15,16
> >
>
> Actually triglycerides have been shown to be a CAD risk factor
> primarily in those with metabolic syndrome and not in other folks..
Now, first you denied that low-carb diets reduce triglcerides
independently of weightloss and when you were shown otherwise you seem
to deny the relevance of elevated triglycerides.
With limited success, though, because the majority of overweight persons
and almost all obese persons _have_ metabolic syndrome, so it is
relevant for them. And a most dieters will be overweight or even obese.
> > [...]
> > Paradoxically, a low-fat/high-carbohy-drate
> > diet exacerbates atherogenic dyslipi-demia
> > if the patient does not lose a significant
> > amount of weight or increase his or her level
> > of physical activity.26,27
>
> Therefore, when there is weight loss, triglycerides will be lowered
> independent of whether the diet is LC or HC.
>
> > However, a very-low-carbohydrate
> > diet improves all aspects of
> > atherogenic dyslipidemia, decreasing fasting
> > and postprandial triglyceride levels, increasing
> > HDL, increasing LDL size, and decreasing
> > insulin, independent of weight loss.14,23"
> >
>
> Ime, this effect has not been independent of weight loss. Without
> weight loss, LC dieters rarely improve their lipid profile.
The authors of the article I cited seem to think otherwise and what's
more, they cite studies to back up their view. I also cited some studies
to support this. Can you do the same for your view?
> > Volek and Westman, Very-low-carbohydrate weight-loss diets revisited
> > -
> > Cleveland clinic journal of Medicine, Volume 69 - Number 11 -
> > November
> > 2002, pp. 849-862
> > (http://atkins.com/img/assets/862/Volekand_Westman_Ketogenic_Review.pdf)
I notice that you didn't bother to read the article because if you had,
you would hardly have passed up the opportunity to tell us that the
authors were in part financed by the Atkins Foundation.
> > "These results indicate that the effects of lowfat diets on
> > lipoprotein
> > metabolism are not limited to higher fasting plasma triglyceride and
> >
> > lower HDL cholesterol concentrations, but also include a persistent
> > elevation in RLPs. Given the atherogenic potential of these changes
> > in
> > lipoprotein metabolism, it seems appropriate to question the wisdom
> > of
> > recommending that all Americans should replace dietary saturated fat
> >
> > with CHO."
> >
>
> The wiser recommendation is for folks to eat less across the board.
>
Except for food high in carbs of course.
> >
> > Abbasi F. et al., High carbohydrate diets, triglyceride-rich
> > lipoproteins, and coronary heart disease risk. - Am J Cardiol. 2000
> > Jan
> > 1;85(1):45-8.
> > (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11078235&dopt=Abstract)
> >
> > "Improvements in plasma lipids induced by the ad libitum consumption
> > of
> > a high-CHO diet seem to be partly mediated by changes in body
> > weight,
> > whereas lipid changes induced by the high-MUFA diet seem to be
> > independent of changes in body weight."
> >
> > Archer WR. et al., Variations in body composition and plasma lipids
> > in
> > response to a high-carbohydrate diet. - Obes Res. 2003
> > Aug;11(8):978-86.
> >
> >
> > > Without carbohydrates, there will be hyperketonemia. This is not
> > a good
> > > thing physiologically.
> >
> > Now this is funny, because you are promoting a diet on which many
> > dieters may be in ketosis as well, at least according to your
> > reasoning.
> >
> > Some time ago you stated in this group:
> >
> > "Irrespective of the insulin, if someone is catabolizing a large
> > amount
> > of fat
> > (ie 40 lbs) in a short period of time (ie in less than 8 months), it
> > is
> > likely
> > they are inadvertantly ketogenic (not enough carbs for the amount of
> >
> > catabolized
> > fat). It is the ketosis that is bad for the arteries, IMO."
> >
> > (http://groups.google.de/groups?q=g:...e=UTF-8&[email protected])
> >
> > Now the person the discussion was all about lost this weight on
> > Ornish,
> > that is a very high carbohydrate diet.
> >
> > A person following your two-pound approach and eating a more
> > balanced
> > diet would get much less carbohydrates
>
> But enough to keep the Kreb cycle running. It only takes a few
> ounces. Folks really have to work at it to reduce the level of
> carbohydrates to cause hyperketonemia. It does not happen accidently
> except in folks who are starving themselves. And, 2 pounds of food a
> day is a long way from starvation.
>
> > and therefore likely be in
> > ketosis if he is losing moderate amounts of fat, at least according
> > to
> > what you stated in the discussion I cited.
> >
>
> Depends on the rate of weight loss. The 2PD approach brings about
> slow and steady weight loss cruising right into maintenance.
>
> >
> > Or think about all those poor POWs of Camp Cropper who, according to
> >
> > Mu_nstruck, came from obese to thin in a matter of months, on a diet
> >
> > allegedly not unlike your two-pound diet. They must have been in
> > deep
> > ketosis.
Losing so much weight as the POWs of Camp Cropper allegedly have in just
a few months can hardly be called "slow and steady". So either what
happend to these prisoners had nothing to do with the two-pound diet
(which would raise the question, why you didn't notice this on your own)
or else the weigth loss on the two-pound diet isn't all that slow and
steady.
> >
> > (<[email protected]>)
> >
> > > > If
> > > > you are interested in how this works, I'd recommend the book
> > "Protein
> > > > Power" by Michael and Mary Eades to you.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I prefer peer-reviewed journal article to books like "Protein
> > Power."
> > >
> > > The latter sounds too much like "White Power."
> >
> > Do you really think you can discredit the work of the Eades' with
> > this,
> > er, association of yours?
> >
>
> The title's already done it for me. Sorry.
I notice that you take every possible excuse to close both eyes when it
comes to the merits of low-carb diets.
Thorsten
--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"
(Theodosius Dobzhansky)
