What rim for handuilt road race wheels?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by bomber, Feb 8, 2007.

  1. bomber

    bomber New Member

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    I am looking to get some handbuilt wheels for my road bike that will be used in training as well as some road racing as well as when i go to the Alps later in the year. I am keen on the idea of using the DT Swiss 240s hubs and revolution spokes as a basis for the wheel but have been scratching my head with an idea for the rim.

    To summarise i am looking for a light, durable clincher that can be easily maintained as well as rebuilt should the need arise. :rolleyes:

    My early thoughts leaned towards keeping the DT Swiss theme and getting the R1.1 rim however I have heard of late some fairly bad reviews of the rim and issues with the eyelets cracking. This then made me lean towards the Mavic Open pro rim as they supposedly are renowned for their strength. Considering that we dont get some of the rim's that are mentioned elsewhere in the forum (velocity for e.g.) i would be interested in hearing some of your opinions.

    Thanks
     
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  2. daveornee

    daveornee New Member

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    Tell us what brands you can get.
    Ambrosio, Torelli, etc.?
     
  3. cduroy

    cduroy New Member

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    The new DT rims are double eyeletted and this is supposed to have resolved the cracking issue
     
  4. buckybux

    buckybux New Member

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    I just built a new rear wheel. I used the Velocity Aeroheard rim. If you search the net, you can get it for about $50, and it is lighter than the DT RR1.1.
     
  5. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Alex Crostini R3.1/3.2 rims are very nice, very durable, as are Alex R400 rims. FWIW, Alex used to make DT's rims, as well as rims for other "manufacturers."
     
  6. bobbyOCR

    bobbyOCR New Member

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    Now they just weight a ton. Go for the crostini rims, velocity aerohead or Ambrosio Chrono F20 for tubular. Mavic Open Pro are apparently pretty good too.
     
  7. sideshow_bob

    sideshow_bob New Member

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    I had a set of wheels built with Crostini 1.1/1.2 which are fine wheels, probably more like a general set of training/racing wheels than race specific. The quality is very good and I'd think the 3 series are an excellent choice.

    --brett
     
  8. artemidorus

    artemidorus New Member

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    Velocity Aerohead (OC rear).
     
  9. danielhaden

    danielhaden New Member

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    That's a no-brainer. The answer is Velocity Areohead at the front and Velocity Areohead Offset at the rear.

    There's such a light and strong rim weight.
    Both left and right spokes of the rear wheel transfer power.
    The rim is strong enough for a 24/20 areo lacing for about a 160 pound rider or a 28/24 for almost any rider.
    I favor Wheelsmith XE14 and 20 of them in the front wheel. Use something stout like 24 Sapim CX for the rear wheel to make sure power gets through it.

    Since the small areo rim is in the "climber" weight range, you may also lace it up like a climber with DT Revolution, but I'm not sure why you'd do that unless you're going loaded touring or want some extra drag for some reason.

    As far as hubs go, look for medium flanges instead of small flanges, and make sure that the front hub is full width. This is useful in keeping power out of the front wheel (via lower required tension) and getting power through the rear wheel (via simple leverage).
    Also look for hubs that fit the industry's #1 power transmitting spoke, Sapim CX fat blade for the rear (2x pattern suggested). . .and the industry's #1 power rejecting spoke, Wheelsmith XE14 (20 count front), XL14 / AE15 (24 count front).
    DT's alloy spoke nipples are incredibly strong, especially if the spoke is long enough to go all the way to the end.
    How to support these 4 brands together?
    SpeedCific Serenity hubs can do this.

    And that's a "home run"!

    Alps?
    Howabout "Kool Stop" brake pads?
    Also, if you've got a "Compact Double" then why don't you consider a "Compact Triple" with an inner ring that's barely smaller than the middle ring.
    Sugino's XD600, Truvativ alloy bolts (2 sets), FSA's 50 tooth ring, and T.A.'s 28 tooth ring plus a VSI/Sinz or Phil Wood TI bottom bracket all come together to create a "Compact Triple" which will allow you to spin most of the way up the hills and drop many at the top since you're refreshed and they're not.
    Just a thought.
    Got a classic double?
    Howabout a classic and authentic racing triple. That's a T.A. 34t ring, plus the usual 42 and 52 (34-42-52) which works best with Campangolo shifters (can use Jtek's roller if your rear drive is Shimano--no problem).
    The performance centric large triple keeps you on larger and more efficient rear cogs, while the spacing between chainrings is very tiny so there's no fautiging shocks (nothing to "make up for") when you shift. With the 52t or a 53t large chainring, you can use a step larger cassette to go with it and still be able to spin the bottom 80% of most hills and then drop the group at the top.

    However, do up your wheels before you consider gearing. Rims as light as Velocity Areohead will have a major effect on gearing. Areohead can make 1 or 2 shifts difference over (superior to) Mavic's heavy Open Slo.

    You might interview a "tire trick" to see if its useful.
    Combining ONE Serfas SECA RS (a light and flexy anti-flat with cornering rubber) with ONE Michelin Ultralight tube (protected by that tire) breaks even on weight while providing some unique and possibly useful features.
    This can make a good FRONT tire system. Michelin Ultralight and the corresponding reason to consider using an anti-flat tire will actually flat out on the rear wheel, so just interivew them on the front. Seperately, these two sorts of things do not improve speed, so try them as illustrated.
    Tubulars are far superior uphill than any clincher, and it would be a disservice not to mention that; however, in either case, the "cushy on the front" does improve climbing speed.
    And, by using Arehead rims, you've saved enough weight to afford that particular feature and/or speed trick.
     
  10. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Uhm, how would this not happen anyway? For oneset to not transfer power, it would have to be disconnected from the rim. If you want proof, there's a very famous wheelbuilder in England who has builts rear wheels for track guys in which all spokes are radially laced.

    You're not using the word "power" correctly.

    Loaded touring with DT Revos? I think Revoutions are one of the last spokes that people would use for loaded touring....

    Keeping power "out of the front wheel?" What are you talking about?

    What the hell is a "power rejecting spoke?" There is no such thing.

    Better hubs: Shimano hubs; Campy hubs; DT Swiss hubs; White Industries hubs. SpeedCific hubs are definitely inexpensive, though.

    And that's a "home run"!

    Maybe he's got the gearing he wants. Not everyone needs or wants a triple

    There are a lot of bad assumptions in there.

    Bollocks. A complete load of crap. Do the math.

    Sounds like an ad gone bad. There is so much wrong information in your post that it can only serve to confuse an unwary buyer.
     
  11. danielhaden

    danielhaden New Member

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    Absolutely hilarious!!!

    A recommendation of radial laced rear wheel on garbage Shimano hubs. LMAO!!!

    Good question about "power rejecting spokes". . .
    Annealed spokes are such. They make faster front wheels than hard tempered spokes. If too much power gets into the front wheel, as seen with fat blade spokes in front wheels, then speed is reduced by road abberation. The reverse is true in that speed can be increased by reducing the effects of road abberation for the front wheel.

    Good question on the DT comment. I'll bet that didn't make much sense on first glance. For climber lacing, there is usually a high spoke count of many spokes that aren't quite as large as normal. I was not recommending climber lacing at this time. It is for box rims, mountain bikes, and beach cruisers.
    That wheel type is strong enough for loaded touring, especially since hiking supplies that would be used for touring in the Alps would never overburden DT Revolution. But, forget the cast iron skillet. ;)

    Bad math? No. Many of the items mentioned are for the poster to interview aka test drive.
    However, the wheels mentioned are indeed a home run for extremely speedy climbers that also achieve time trial like speeds. Most easy-climbing wheels cannot do that. FYI, that's called "good math"

    Do you work for Shimano?

     
  12. ScienceIsCool

    ScienceIsCool New Member

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    You make absolutely no sense whatsoever. You have, however, demonstrated an appalling lack of understanding of the engineering and physics principles involved - so please stop making such ridiculous assertions and recommendations.

    I hate being so negative, but you come across as very confident and may convince some readers into accepting your bad advice as truth. Of course, I and many others here would be more than happy to debate things such as spoke count or lacing pattern as long as we stick to documented facts and demonstrable calculations.

    John Swanson
    www.bikephysics.com
     
  13. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Garbage Shimano hubs? How do you figure? I believe that Speedcific hubs are in fact Joytech hubs. They might be good, but they ain't stellar. Nor did I recommend a radially laced rear wheel. I did say a long time builder, in England, a well respected builder, has built completely radially laced rear wheels for at least on track rider. You need to read more carefully.

    I'll help you a bit with science. "Power rejecting spokes" are a physical impossibility. Do you know what power is? If you're talking about vertical compliance, then it's basically a wash across all wheels. If you want to reduce power losses caused by bumpy roads, then you reduce tire pressure to the point power losses are minimized. It has nothing to do with the spokes.

    What the hell are you calling a "climber wheel?" Uhm, take a look at the Lightweight Alpe de L'Huez wheels. Those are specifically for climbing. Look at the Crumpton special hill climb bike in ProCycling this month. That is a hill climb: low spoke count; uber light rims; even CF nipples.

    I'd like you to point out the reputable wheel builders that are building wheels for loaded touring with Revolution spokes.

    Actually, not. You've applied no math. Basic scientific principles govern the behavior and performance of wheels. You've applied none of those principles. In fact, a lot of what you say flies in the face of good science, and as stated by someone else, makes no sense at all. For someone looking for advice, you've done a disservice.

    Uhm, no, why? I mentioned Shimano all of once. I also mentioned Campy once, White Industries once, and DT Swiss once. So? All of those manufacturers make top of the charts hubs. I don't even have any Shimano parts on my bike. Where exactly is the statement that leads you to think I work for Shimano?

    Do you build bikes for Walmart?
     
  14. artemidorus

    artemidorus New Member

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    Mr Haden has been lurking on the Aust/NZ forum for a while spouting BS about tyres. He will not/ cannot enter a debate when challenged, but tends to froth at the mouth instead.
     
  15. danielhaden

    danielhaden New Member

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    I am saying that the above negative, non-constructive, comments were inspired by lemming like mentalities. Personally, I don't enjoy the view caused by merely following. That is 100% ass, much like many of the responses. An improvment would be to suggest something better rather than supressing the ideas of others.

    To the argumentitive posts: It would be appreciated if you actually experienced what you are both for and against.

    At the least, it would make your spouting off ever so much more enjoyable in knowing that you're actually right rather than the current situation, where it seems that you are regurgitating marketing information rather than applicable experience. Or perhaps I insulted a favorite brand and you have a desire to denounce this?

    I'm saying that the negative comments would seem more realistic if they were related to something functional given as an example of a better idea than mine.

    Simply put, if you don't like it, then beat it. Otherwise, it sounds like comments from a 300 pound sofa dweller. Try being constructive instead.

    I'm not saying that any of the words in this post (mine or others) are entirely definite in every situation. However. . . It is certainly true that Velocity Areohead is super-fast uphill. And it is true that they are faster than a "box rim" because the pointy edge gives strength that allows a lower spoke count. Less spokes conduct less power, and so I suggested some Sapim at the rear wheel. Since those can be hard as a rock, I suggested an alternative for the front wheel.
    What isn't perfectly simple about that? Duh!

    It doesn't take a math wizard to weigh a Velocity Areohead and a Mavic Open Slo. But, there are enough varieties of mathmatics, I'm sure you could come up with a complex and nonfunctional way to prove that the Mavic is faster. In real life, the Velocity is faster. Sorry if I insulted the Mavic wheels that you personally own. But, the view is better on Velocity.

    It doesn't take an engineering genius to notice that the Shimano and similar rear hub designs do not promote great stability to the drivetrain (because of the freehub mounting methods).
    So, it is actually important not to use a daft design with todays modern, irritable, and very narrow toleranced drivetrains. The Speedcific Serenity hubs mentioned above are an example of good engineering with an extra bearing to stabilize the freehub that could be very useful with intense alpine climbing.
    If you currently own Shimano hubs, well, I'm sorry to disappoint you but better performance does exist even if it happens to cost a bit less because of the difference in marketing expenses of the manufacturer.
    You won't hear me complain about Campangolo because even though some designs are similar, the quality control is much more successful, and thus a better view than many similar Shimano products.

    The products I mentioned are because they tend to surpass the speeds of the usual mass market guesswork. An arena of discussion for handbuilt bicycle parts is probably for the purpose of something different and something better than mass market fodder.

    So, once again in reply to the entirely negative and lemming-like posts, please change polarity and post your argument into the format of ideas better than mine. Now that would be fantastic. . .and actually helpful.
    That's what these particular forums are for.
     
  16. supergrill

    supergrill New Member

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    No. What "Arte" said is spot on. He is merely trying to warn the less experienced people, that if they just take the time to carefully read and ponder a decent selection of your posts they will quickly learn that by-and-large, you are full of it; and they should be very wary of taking it to heart. :rolleyes:
     
  17. artemidorus

    artemidorus New Member

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    Of course, goes without saying...
    Evidence? It's just as fast uphill as any other rim of similar weight, unless you can prove otherwise.
    Evidence?
    If this were true, we'd see all the pros with 100-spoke wheels. I don't think that you understand what "power" means.
    Perhaps you'd care to detail the engineering inadequacies of Shimano hubs? Just so that the boys and girls in Japan can get their notebooks out?
    Hey, show me your evidence that Shimano hubs are slower than others and I'll be a convert.
    Agreed, but arguments that are not adequately premised, or are not cogent, will be slammed.
    Without evidence, you can have no premises. If you don't understand enough physics, your arguments will not be cogent. Your posts suffer from both problems.
     
  18. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the above comments were inspired by the backgrounds in engineering and science of the people who made the comments.

    If you'd take the time to read other wheel related posts here, you'd see that there are plenty of comments with better suggestions for wheels. Unfortunately for you, none of them are made by you. What is 100% ass is making comments that either contravene physics or are made without any concern for adhering to the laws of physics at all. Again, your suggestions fall under this category.

    Experience is one thing. Being able to correctly analyze the fruits of your experience is an entirely different thing. You are unable to do the latter, if your suggestions and comments are any measure of what you have "learned.

    Who's regurgitating marketing spiel? Art, John, and I have made comments that are congruent with the laws of physics and good engineering principles.

    You're talking in circles without presenting a single verifiable fact.

    Oh, now the pot is calling the kettle "black." Google "quack physics," go to some of the sites the Google reports, and you'll see that your arguments are much like those of quack physicists.

    Uhm, where is the proof? An Aerohead is only 21mm tall. That's hardly an aero rim. Until the road grade gets very steep--on the order of 10%ish--aero dominates weight And there are more than a few rims that are at least as light and more aero.

    No, the "pointy edge" is not what gives strength and allows a lower spoke count: it is the sloped rim profile from the cross-section apex to the brake track. This is nothing unique to Aeroheads. FWIW, aero testing by Zipp has shown that low profile rims, in general, perform similarly aerodynamically, as a group. The Aerohead fits this group. It's a nice rim, maybe, but the only special thing about it is price.

    First, the math involved in weighing a rim is not the math we're talking about. All of that "math" is done in the weight scale, either in a processor or on a calibrated analog scale. Second, while there are many different kinds of mathematics, many aren't even applicable. Someone would be on the wrong track if they were intending to model a wheel's performance using Riemann geometry. Until you know what different types of math there are, you're not qualified to judge anyone's math. It doesn't matter, though, because the analysis of a wheel's performance, to first order, can be modeled with simple geometry, trig, and algebra. For more accurate modeling, partial differential equations are necessary if you want to discern to high accuracy the changes in acceleration of a bike system as a result of either changes in a wheels weight, its moment of inertia, or its coefficient of drag. Go to this thread at Weight Weenies. In it, Mark McM does a very succint analysis of a bicycle's equation of motion. If you don't understand, that's ok: email Mark McM and he'll not only send you the spreadsheet that performs the 4th order Runge-Kutte method of differentiation necessary to solve the equation, I'll bet he'll also tell you how to input the things you want to input. Careful, though: he's a knowledgeable engineer and is likely to do that whole "math thing" on you.

    No, all it takes to notice that is no concept of engineering principles and science. "Instability", as you call it, in a drivetrain, would eventually lead to accelerated wear. Neither Shimano nor Campy hubs are known for accelerated or even quick wear. In fact, they are some of the most durable hubs around.

    Irritable drivetrains? Where did you get that? I ride with a lot of guys with Campy and Shimano 10spd drive trains that are nice and quiet, and whose owners rarely adjust said "irritable drivetrains."

     
  19. danielhaden

    danielhaden New Member

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    artemidorus,

    Thank you. This is reasonable, although it does not contain a finer proposition than mine, yet it is still reasonably polite.

    Weight of the rim and that it requires less support (also weight) because of its structure was the point of that rim recommendation.

    I did not want to promote high spoke count wheels. Instead I did advise using rather stiff rear spokes if the count were to be low.
    And, controversially, advised using cushy spokes in the front because it is my belief and experience that it will yield some tubular-like advantages that translate into increased speed on mixed road surfaces.

    The wheelset referenced will indeed fly. It is surprising that so few have experienced an areo-laced version of Velocity Areohead. I would have thought it nearly common knowledge.

    I had considered the first post as a gift of information, and many of the other posts confirm that a similar wheel on that very rim is expected to produce desired results.

    Shimano hubs, Ultegra, Dura Ace, and XT are not as seriously flawed as their siblings, yet they do share a "hacked" design, which is an almagamation of earlier designs and not a rebuild designed to support cassettes.
    Could this be for patent purposes? I do not know why Shimano uses daft hubs or left hand shifters that do not work as well as their competitors.
    It seems, in my experience, far too easy to knock 9 cog and 10 cog drivetrains out of alignment, so the hubs I recommended hold the cassette with more stability due to the extra bearing.
    As some background on the Shimano hub problem, it is well known by team mechs that some higher quality grease can alleviate the worst issues; but, the hubs that I mentioned do not require any such fine tuning in order to work perfectly.

    It is possible to build a Shimano, DT, and Mavic wheelset that is quite functional and pleasant as well, but I do not believe they are optimal as they do not seem to combine the weight range, and areo effects together in one package. Instead, the usual products have you choose between "climber" and "areo" seperately with many gradiations in-between.
    Now, the Velocity isn't a lot different, yet it is a "climber" weight rim that may be areo laced.

    None of this debate contains the truly professional option of Tubulars. I wonder why they are absent.
    In pondering this, I mentioned that the lighter anti-flat tires support ultralight tubes and may break even that way. Flat concerns seems the only reason to race on clinchers. Am I wrong?

    Thank you for pointing out my continuing battle between concise and complete. It is true that I never seem to get both at once. My apologies for that.

    Thank you for a kinder sort of criticism.
    Just for fun, what wheels would you recommend?

     
  20. danielhaden

    danielhaden New Member

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    Now, there was an interesting comment in there that areo dominates weight. This is mostly true. However, wheels have a great effect on needed gearing and energy level, as is common knowledge.

    Areohead supports using areo wheel style lacing at an easy to sprint weight range that allows easier dropping the competition than many other options and no option seriously beats it for that purpose except perhaps. . . .
    Large and extra-light tubular areos are fine by me!

    But I wouldn't exactly recommend Easton Velomax Tempest 2 Clincher version as the wheel to take up the alps even though it wins many races on flatter ground. The tubular version is certainly worth a test drive to see if it is agreeable to the cyclist. Do watch that rear tension and have it checked after initial break-in.

    And I would not recommend any sort of box rim for a race either, so we are actually in agreement on some sort of areo rim. I think small and light is good on the hills, but enlighten me. . .

    So, what wheels would you recommend?


     
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