What software for power meter?

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by scottz123, Nov 26, 2013.

  1. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Again you are deliberately obfuscating by suggesting I've claimed something as "science", which neither I, nor Dr Coggan have done. However these are concepts that do use science as the basis of their formulation. That significant difference is either too subtle for you, or you are just being a troll. Please try to avoid nonsense strawman fallacies. I know you can't help it, but please try.

    Not that it is relevant to this discussion, I'll just point out it's another fallacy to suggest that just because something might be a hobby to someone does not mean it is, or is not, science. If you had any understanding of the history of science, you'll realise that some of the most important scientific work throughout history was performed by hobbyists. This has been the case in the fields of physics, chemistry, genetics, biology, astronomy, and so on.

    As for 12 people who have prove these concepts are invalid, that is, I'm afraid, complete nonsense. There were a dozen or twenty cases of what's known as an "NP buster". Hardly earth shattering, which only demonstrates that an NP buster is rare, but more importantly, there is no scientific claim that has been made to begin with, for which such things prove or disprove. You keep building up these strawmen but they are just more meaningless drivel your part.

    Your constant stream of fallacious statements however do prove you are a troll.
     


  2. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    I've been watching the forum for over a decade and I wouldn't say there's been a constant stream of such advice.

    There have always been discussions on most cycling forums about the interplay between duration and intensity, and ways to quantify workload, and that composition of training does matter.
     
  3. bing181

    bing181 New Member

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    Nowhere in the programs based on Coggan (and other's) research is it recommended to "ride day after day, month after month doing SST, SST and more SST".

    Though I suspect you know that already.
     
  4. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    It is good to know that you also regard these concepts as not being science. You might point that out to those who demand proof. If it is not science, there can be no proof.

    The fact, that there exists some science formula that involves the fourth power and NP invloves a fourth power does not make the latter a basis for the former. But that does seem to be Andy Coggan's claim. (Technically, Andy Coggan makes a claim tha tsome physical process has an exponential nature and therefore he uses that and approximates it as a fourth power.)

    acoggan said it was a hobby not science. I quoted him. If you have an objection, take it up with him. As a person with an advanced degree who does science, Andy Coggan certainly tries to give the impression that NP is science rather than hobby. Don't confuse Andy Coggan's "hobby" with possible science. His "hobby" is marketing for Trainingpeaks.com. There is no possibility for it to have scientific support.

    Andy Coggan made many claims about NP and TSS. He also gave the impression that those claims were based on science. In science a single counter example is sufficient to refute a theory. Each of the 12 "NP busters" would pove that NP and TSS have no scientific basis. But as you say there is no science to disprove.

    ---

    I suspect your proof that I am a troll is defective in many ways. I have only shown a few.
     
  5. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Because you treat them like science.

    This thread was not about TSS, ATL, CTL ot TSB. Someone asked what we liked and disliked about the software we used. I answered. Someone did not like my answer.

    ---

    I like SST. But there is a lot that moves the sweet spot. Genes move it. Available time moves it. We could have a long civil discussion about SST.
     
  6. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    "All models are wrong, but some are useful." - George Box
     
  7. flapsupcleanup

    flapsupcleanup New Member

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    [IMG ALT=""]http://www.cyclingforums.com/content/type/61/id/294900/width/350/height/700[/IMG]
    Wow AOG, Andy really got under your skin, eh? I thought the troll's handbook specifically warned against that. Keep posting though! I like the entertainment.
     
  8. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    The key elements of NP algorithm are indeed based on sound physiological science, relating to both the time course for many key underlying physiological responses to intensity of effort, as well as the curvilinear nature of those responses. The rest is, as Andy has explained over the years, simply applying the principle of parsimony.

    Also as Andy has explained, it's a model, and what matters is whether the model is useful, and under what conditions it remains so.

    The model has demonstrated to be very useful, and the domain of its validity are well known and have always been acknowledged by Andy. e.g. it's not really intended for sensible assessment of shorter duration efforts, and certain types of (rarer) rider profiles and rides types tend to push the limits of the algorithm. So what? If you understand that, you know what to look for and use some intelligence when interpreting the information.

    Indeed in the limited number of situations where it is "stressed" (e.g. as with NP busters), it still does a far better job in the majority of cases in assessing the impact of a ride than does, for instance, average power (arithmetic mean).

    As for the hobby v science thing, I'm well aware of what Andy has said. Your argument however is a logical fallacy known as a false dichotomy.

    Just because something might be a hobby for someone, does not imply it cannot also be a scientific hobby, or that a sound scientific approach cannot also be applied to one's hobby.
     
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  9. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Actually I treat them like a guide as I clearly stated and trust that the sports scientists have put in the research for me. Fortunately I have found my results and physical reaction so far to coincide very closely with the metrics in WKO+'s PMC and other charts. Therefore, I am encouraged to continue to use the metrics, the power meter and the sound principles based on training with power.

    If I didn't than what is the point of even using a power meter? What would I base it on?
    Maybe I could just have a broken power meter that gives me delusions of Grandeur and falsely boast of casually passing all the Cat 1's in my area on a six mile climb at over 400 watts like some people do.
     
  10. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    "Obsessive-compulsiveness isn't a character flaw, it's a way of life." - Jim Martin

    (BTW, I also consider this to be hobby: http://www.tririg.com/docs/CogganLSWT.pdf and http://www.tririg.com/docs/omega_whitepaper.pdf.)
     
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  11. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Very nice Andy. The windtunnel doc was an interesting read and the aero tests of the brakes was very informative - although for some reason I was expecting larger gains for something like a Hooker brake over a modern Dura Ace design. Maybe going bargain hunting on eBay for old dura ace Ax components like brakes and cranks could be a cheap way to get aero parts. Love the fact that your young daughter asked to build the windtunnel with you. "Dad, can we play doll house?" "Dad, can we play make up?" "Dad, can we build a windtunnel?" On a different note - when is WKO+ 4 coming out?
     
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