What type of running workout to achieve cycling benefits?

[taricha]

If I cannot bike for several days at a time, and I want to run in a way to give me maximum possible benefits on the bike, what workout(s) would you guys recommend?

I don't believe in gimmicks. I know that a crappy workout on the bike will yield more cycling benefits than a vigorous workout off the bike. I'm not looking to choose a running workout over biking.
However, due to schedule and very annoying summer thunderstorms there are times when I am forced to take a 3-5 day unplanned break from my bike. Because it's unexpected, sometimes that means nearly a week passes between high intensity bike workouts. I don't have access to indoor facilities, a trainer, etc. If I could be on the bike, my intense workouts would be doing things like 2x20s, trying to best my time on either a loop that's about 40 min or one that's 20 min, or just barely being able to hold on with the local group ride for 90 min or so.
I've been cycling seriously about 10 weeks and am progressing rapidly as beginners often do (my 40 minute loop started out as a 57 min loop) which makes forced time off the bike very frustrating. I know just going out and getting my blood pumping and my lungs working would be enough to avoid detraining, but I'm too greedy to be satisfied with that.
Running I am perfectly happy to do in the dark or the rain or both. So what systems should I aim to train?
My guess is that the stress on the muscles is too different to hope for neuromuscular adaptations (so no L7). I can't do hours of long slow distance running, because knee issues are what made me stop running competitively in the first place (So no L1,L2).
So what sorts of things do you think would be the best use of my pent up energy?
1. Just go out and log lots of minutes of L3?
2. Push things close to threshold and get the L4 work I'm not getting enough of on the bike anyway?
3. Long interval workouts at L5 to stress VO2Max?
4. Shorter L6 efforts to get anaerobic work?
5. Drown my rainy day sorrows in beer and get fat.

Thanks for replies and for just reading my longwinded question.

 

[BikingBrian]

Have you thought about taking up duathlon or triathlons? Seriously. I don't know your cycling goals, but if they are competition-related, I think it would be very difficult to progress with the very limited number of workouts you can do on the bike each week. Whereas if you switch to multisport, you can do just fine (many athletes even excel) on just a few bike rides a week. Just a thought.

 

[taricha]

Have you thought about taking up duathlon or triathlons?

I have considered it, and in a future season it may well become my main focus. Now it's not though. I just picked up the bike and want to see where it takes me.

I don't know your cycling goals, but if they are competition-related, I think it would be very difficult to progress with the very limited number of workouts you can do on the bike each week.

My cycling goals currently are to go from a hanger-on in the fast group rides to being able to mix it up with the better riders in the group, after that I'll probably dip my toe into racing, which I suspect I'll enjoy way too much. Usually, I do 5 days a week on the bike, but some weeks like this one, I lose one day to schedule, 4 days to rain, and I only get 2 days with my bike.
Odds are, my problem will be temporary and I'll end up ponying up for an indoor trainer or gym membership before the winter's over, but right now it is a problem.

perhaps the solution is to pretend I'm on my bike while running like so?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Option 5 sounds good, but you can train and do that anyway...

Use the running to compliment your cycling, or IOW to work on the stuff that you might not target as often on the bike which for many folks is the sustained 20 to 40 minute SST/Threshold intervals.

If you haven't been running then ease into it to give your joints and muscles a break but work up to low Tempo, then High Tempo, then full SST/L4 runs with sustained efforts that get you breathing deeply and steadily and require focus to keep you from backing down to a jog.

Sure, from a specificity standpoint it's not ideal but it sure beats not training at all and from your description of working to hang on to group rides I suspect you'll get a lot of benefit and even measurable on bike FTP improvement by steady focused running.

FWIW for the last few winters I've supplemented my indoor bike training with cross country ski skating and some running. This time of year I'm running at least 3 days a week in preparation for cyclocross season in addition to the running that happens during cross specific training. My runs are at least Tempo if not above and evolve to microinterval work with the 'rest' intervals at Tempo. I'm definitely a cyclist first but my power hasn't suffered and typically improves a bit with the added Tempo/SST running. But when cross ends, winter is over and spring rolls around I'd prefer to be on the bike and typically shelve the running during bike season.

Running really lends itself to SST/Threshold work and is pretty easy to extend to SST microinterval work. Sure you could focus on VO2 Max or L6, but I'd generally prefer to do that and definitely L7 work on the bike where specificity and the pure fun of going fast as well as finding available training rides and venues is a bit easier on the bike. It can be tough to find a good road or hill for 20 minute L4 work on the bike but pretty easy to find similar paths for 20 minute L4 runs.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[SolarEnergy]

...but my power hasn't suffered and typically improves a bit with the added Tempo/SST running.

...

Interesting thoughts.

 

[BikingBrian]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming
...but my power hasn't suffered and typically improves a bit with the added Tempo/SST running.

...

Interesting thoughts.

My thoughts, too - not that I don't believe you, Dave, but it seems a bit strange that your *on-bike* power would improve with running.
IME, when I was a duathlete, my cycling was never as good as it is now that I am a pure cyclist. Having said that though, it's anecdotal as I didn't have a power meter then so no numbers to compare to.

To the OP: One more thing - you said you haven't been able to get out because of rain. Learn to enjoy riding in the rain! We've had lots of rain here as well this summer and although it's a bit of a pain cleaning the bike afterwards, it hasn't stopped me from doing my planned workouts. One of the secrets to progressing is consistency in training.

 

[taricha]

Thanks for the replies.

Use the running to compliment your cycling, or IOW to work on the stuff that you might not target as often on the bike which for many folks is the sustained 20 to 40 minute SST/Threshold intervals.

Running really lends itself to SST/Threshold work and is pretty easy to extend to SST microinterval work. ...It can be tough to find a good road or hill for 20 minute L4 work on the bike but pretty easy to find similar paths for 20 minute L4 runs.

Thanks for the tips, and a very good point about being able to carefully manage the level of effort running. I'm sure my power on the bike fluctuates wildly even when trying to keep the effort steady.

My thoughts, too - not that I don't believe you, Dave, but it seems a bit strange that your *on-bike* power would improve with running.

Seems to me like it hinges on whether you are adding running workouts that don't replace or interfere with biking workouts, and so simply adding non-bike-specific training of your aerobic system. Under those conditions, it seems like it could be beneficial. If however, he's saying he gets benefits from replacing a bike workout with a run, then that is a more interesting claim.

To the OP: One more thing - you said you haven't been able to get out because of rain. Learn to enjoy riding in the rain! We've had lots of rain here as well this summer and although it's a bit of a pain cleaning the bike afterwards, it hasn't stopped me from doing my planned workouts. One of the secrets to progressing is consistency in training.

That's much more hard core than the people around here, so I just assumed conventional wisdom was that it was too unsafe and detrimental to the bike to ride in rain and one should flee to the trainer/gym instead.
Something good for a noob like me to read up on, rainy day rides and the cleanup after.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Just a note on my experience this past winter, spring and early summer, we were getting rain almost every weekend. Because I was doing efforts of an hour or less indoors during the week we felt compelled to get out and do longer rides despite the rain. It was not the frustration of being wet or sometimes cold and wet that was the problem, but when I uploaded my powertap data I would find that the ride was sub par to what I could have just done indoors.

Our speed was much slower because it would become difficult and unsafe because or the rain in our eyes, because the roads were so slick. A few times I came very close to crashing on switchbacks.

Then there was the time and effort of cleaning the bike. Almost every training event I had to remove the tires and would drain out a quarter cup of water or more, remove the cranks and virtually take the bike apart to get it clean enough.

Worth riding in the rain?
I found out I can be hardcore, but at the end of uploading my data and cleaning the bike I am not sure it was worth it. However, I will probably do it again someday because I always give into peer pressure when someone says, "let's ride anyway.".

 

[daveryanwyoming]

- not that I don't believe you, Dave, but it seems a bit strange that your *on-bike* power would improve with running.....

I'm guessing it's a matter of what else I do as I prep for cross more than running having 'more' cycling specific benefit. IOW, as cross approaches I tend to do more cross specific training on the bike which tends to be microinterval work, dismounts, runs, etc. which ends up being a lot more high end work than I do during the road season. Most of my power files from cross specific workouts look a lot like crits with QA plots tending towards high force low leg speed power bursts.

It's that time of year that I introduce running and it's the bulk of my L4 work with only one on bike steady L4 day per week. So I'm guessing it's more of a correlation than causation thing in terms of running and on bike power. IOW, I'm peaking a bit with the high end on bike work and less on bike Threshold work and the running fills out the week with some Tempo/SST/L4 work off the bike. Would my power numbers be even higher without the running? Probably, but I've tweaked my ankles, achilles tendons and knees before by jumping into cross without any base running and don't want to repeat those injuries so I run this time of year.

I suppose the only real conclusion I can draw is that running doesn't seem to be hurting my on bike power, but I'm not sure it's really helping as much as the change in weekly routine and additional microinterval work. But the main point to the OP was that it's better to run than sit on the couch if those are the options and running doesn't necessarily have to ruin your cycling especially if you're at a lower starting point which he seems to be based on his posts.

-Dave

 

[tonyzackery]

^^I'm glad you massaged that statement about SST/Tempo running improving your cycling power. I was getting concerned about you...LOL! I was thinking you might've had a bit too much ibuprofen before making that post...LOL!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

dohhhh, the truth's out on my ibu doping regimen....

Gotta say, I still don't preload 'Vitamin I' before hard workouts, but in those first couple of running weeks I used a bit here and there in the evenings to get to sleep with my creaky old joints. It took a couple of weeks before running felt smooth and comfortable again.

-Dave

 

[kopride]

If you haven't been running then ease into it to give your joints and muscles a break but work up to low Tempo, then High Tempo, then full SST/L4 runs with sustained efforts that get you breathing deeply and steadily and require focus to keep you from backing down to a jog.

This time of year I'm running at least 3 days a week in preparation for cyclocross season in addition to the running that happens during cross specific training. My runs are at least Tempo if not above and evolve to microinterval work with the 'rest' intervals at Tempo. I'm definitely a cyclist first but my power hasn't suffered and typically improves a bit with the added Tempo/SST running. But when cross ends, winter is over and spring rolls around I'd prefer to be on the bike and typically shelve the running during bike season.

Running really lends itself to SST/Threshold work and is pretty easy to extend to SST microinterval work. Sure you could focus on VO2 Max or L6, but I'd generally prefer to do that and definitely L7 work on the bike where specificity and the pure fun of going fast as well as finding available training rides and venues is a bit easier on the bike. It can be tough to find a good road or hill for 20 minute L4 work on the bike but pretty easy to find similar paths for 20 minute L4 runs.

Good luck,
-Dave

Dave,

I run at times simply as a function of time management in the winter for all the weather related concerns you expressed about riding in the rain, transporting the bike to work, etc.

But I find that I am plagued with calf pain. if it starts, I really am almost disabled by it mid run and it keeps me from getting to a higher level. As a former avid runner, it is very frustrating. Have you encountered any calf issues from running hard?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

I haven't experienced calf pains in the last few years, but my wife is struggling with soleus (mid calf) soreness and has stopped running for a while. The common recommendations are icing after runs, lower intensity/duration to allow healing, reduced hill work and calf stretches to reduce tightness in the soleus.

Here's some info on soleus pain and what to do about it: Calf Strain Pain and Running

-Dave