Whatever happened to...



acoggan

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...those "magic" 40 s on, 20 s off intervals that were all the rage a couple of years ago? You don't seem to hear anything about them anymore...
 

frenchyge

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acoggan said:
...those "magic" 40 s on, 20 s off intervals that were all the rage a couple of years ago? You don't seem to hear anything about them anymore...
The evidence indicated that people were over-estimating the duration of them....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3217210&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1561037&dopt=Abstract

... so the belief-based coaches determined that 30/30's were optimal instead. :D
 

Eldrack

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I'd still use them as an introduction to Vo2 max work, start with these for a week or two before moving on to harder sessions perhaps. Maybe I am just being foolish :p.
 

SolarEnergy

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Eldrack said:
Maybe I am just being foolish :p.
I don't think so.

I too think that they can have their value, if well calibrated. Although I would probably make them 45-15 instead for that matter.
 

Doctor Morbius

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Wasn't the Tabata method 20 s on and 10 s off? I only know of fitness types wanting the quick fix that use that one. Too much burn out and too demanding on the CNS if you ask me.
 

SolarEnergy

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Doctor Morbius said:
Wasn't the Tabata method 20 s on and 10 s off? I only know of fitness types wanting the quick fix that use that one. Too much burn out and too demanding on the CNS if you ask me.
I dono.
I have never ever used, or prescribe 20-10, 15-15, or any micro-interval kind of work.

I have used ~15-45 extensively in swimming though.
 

AndROOb

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As a relative newcomer to cycle racing(2 yrs of TT's really), I find this change in training ideas very interesting. Would I be correct in thinking that these changes are refining and honing training technique, or is it still just another idea, or another way toward the same objective?
 

frenchyge

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AndROOb said:
As a relative newcomer to cycle racing(2 yrs of TT's really), I find this change in training ideas very interesting. Would I be correct in thinking that these changes are refining and honing training technique, or is it still just another idea, or another way toward the same objective?
Judging by the wording of Andy's "question," (well, troll, really ;) ) I'd guess he thinks they're a fad that's come and gone.
 

BlueJersey

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Andy, how about 30 on and 30 off? I did a session today. They do seem to simulate a race condition. They may even give you a sense of how many matches you can burn. Also, I found that I could do these 17 times over 20 minutes and I could do no more, that is when my power output dropped down to FT. I was doing them at 120% to 130% of FT.

My average NP over 2 x10 of 30/30 intervals comes out to 277w (4.6w/kg). Current FT is 240w. I seriously doubt that I can sustain that kind of effort for more than 20 minutes continuously.

acoggan said:
...those "magic" 40 s on, 20 s off intervals that were all the rage a couple of years ago? You don't seem to hear anything about them anymore...
 

acoggan

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frenchyge said:
Judging by the wording of Andy's "question," (well, troll, really ;) )

Troll? Me? Never! ;)

BTW, the reason that they came to mind again is that I was perusing the SRM website, and came across these statements with regards to the Spring Classics:

"The lengths of the slopes in other world cup races, with the exception of San Sebastian, are much shorter...being ridden in approx. 40 secs."

"The preparation should concentrate on interval training with short and medium-length intervals. 10/20 sec. or 40/20 sec. intervals of physical stress / rest for 10 to 20 minutes to be repeated 3 or 4 times."

Thus, it appears the idea for 40/20 intervals arose from (a possibly too literal?) application of the specificity principle. From there, they apparently took on a life of their own, as such things tend to do...

Anyway, while my initial post was really just a tease, the implications of the 2nd quote above are actually rather interesting to contemplate. Specifically, while the intensity isn't specified, the suggested work:rest ratio and total number of repetitions are such that the normalized power for each 10-20 min set would likely be close to functional threshold power. IOW, what is really being recommended is really just a "non-standard" level 4 workout somewhat akin to doing 15 s on/off microintervals. (It's also worth noting that 30-80 min of total training at this intensity is recommended, which is again consistent with general guidelines for level 4 sessions.)
 

frenchyge

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acoggan said:
Anyway, while my initial post was really just a tease, the implications of the 2nd quote above are actually rather interesting to contemplate. Specifically, while the intensity isn't specified, the suggested work:rest ratio and total number of repetitions are such that the normalized power for each 10-20 min set would likely be close to functional threshold power. IOW, what is really being recommended is really just a "non-standard" level 4 workout somewhat akin to doing 15 s on/off microintervals. (It's also worth noting that 30-80 min of total training at this intensity is recommended, which is again consistent with general guidelines for level 4 sessions.)
Interesting. It's as if those race courses were designed to be "just hard enough to separate the men from the boys" by creating a built-in selection process based on FT power. Whether they knew what they were doing at the time or not, the desired results must have been easy to see and predict.
 

WarrenG

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frenchyge said:
Interesting. It's as if those race courses were designed to be "just hard enough to separate the men from the boys" by creating a built-in selection process based on FT power. Whether they knew what they were doing at the time or not, the desired results must have been easy to see and predict.

Not really about FT power. They do one of those climbs and then may not do another for many minutes. FT is not what they train specifically for those climbs.

Here's one interval session my coach used to prescribe for Michele Bartoli when he was winning the WC overall two years in a row. 20" sprint uphill, rest 2-3', repeat, in sets of 3-4, total of 20. Sometimes the sprint is 30". Sound familiar?
 

velomanct

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WarrenG said:
Not really about FT power. They do one of those climbs and then may not do another for many minutes. FT is not what they train specifically for those climbs.

Here's one interval session my coach used to prescribe for Michele Bartoli when he was winning the WC overall two years in a row. 20" sprint uphill, rest 2-3', repeat, in sets of 3-4, total of 20. Sometimes the sprint is 30". Sound familiar?
My coach had me do these last spring:

30 sec sprint, 30 sec rest
repeat 6 times

I thought I was going to die.
 

WarrenG

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velomanct said:
My coach had me do these last spring:

30 sec sprint, 30 sec rest
repeat 6 times

I thought I was going to die.

Those would be very hard, but they don't have enough rest to allow for quality sprints after the first one or two. Anaerobic capacity though, and that would help you in the final k of a race. Are anaerobic capacity intervals ever anything but really hard?
 

velomanct

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WarrenG said:
Those would be very hard, but they don't have enough rest to allow for quality sprints after the first one or two. Anaerobic capacity though, and that would help you in the final k of a race. Are anaerobic capacity intervals ever anything but really hard?
Yeah, I had told my coach that I would never have 'my sprint' at the end of a race because I would be working to hard in the last kilo. So that's what the workout was intended to improve. Gawd I wish I could put down a typical sprint in a race finish, instead of only ~60%.

The funny thing is, if I do a real 30 second hill sprint in training, I am completely trashed for the following half hour. So imagine doing another sprint after only 30 seconds recovery! :eek: :eek:
I figured out that it takes me a 60:1 ratio to recover from sprints. 60 secs recovery for every 1 sec sprinting.
 

WarrenG

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velomanct said:
Yeah, I had told my coach that I would never have 'my sprint' at the end of a race because I would be working to hard in the last kilo. So that's what the workout was intended to improve. Gawd I wish I could put down a typical sprint in a race finish, instead of only ~60%.

The funny thing is, if I do a real 30 second hill sprint in training, I am completely trashed for the following half hour. So imagine doing another sprint after only 30 seconds recovery! :eek: :eek:
I figured out that it takes me a 60:1 ratio to recover from sprints. 60 secs recovery for every 1 sec sprinting.

You probably know this, but better aerobic fitness would allow for much quicker recoveries between sprints and higher power for your race finishes. I learned this first hand. By being able to recover in say, 5 or 8 minutes you can do more sprints, and as they say, the more you can do the more you can do.

Also, a big reason 20" uphill sprints transfer over well to racing is because when you only allow about 3' recovery (2-3 per set) you have to do subsequent sprints under many of the same conditions as your end of the race sprints. By the time you're into your second set it feels a lot like a sprint at the end of a race. Typical recovery/sprint ratio for various length sprints in this format is 8:1 to 10:1.

Another interval you can do for end of the race is, on a slight uphill, 4' at threshold with the last 30" as a sprint. 4-5' recovery. Repeat for a total of 4-?
 

Doctor Morbius

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frenchyge said:
Judging by the wording of Andy's "question," (well, troll, really ;) ) I'd guess he thinks they're a fad that's come and gone.
The following is copied and pasted from a weight training web site but I think the content still applies.

Don't Reinvent The Wheel.
Motivational guru Tony Robbins always talked about how "success leaves clues," and he's right. There are commonalities among people who are successful in a particular endeavor. So figure out what they are and do them yourself.

Yeah, it's true that you'll always run across some guy who claims to have had phenomenal success using some sort of unusual training technique (like training 18 times a week or only using one set to failure or whatever) or dietary practice, but you can save yourself a lot of time and confusion by looking at what common methods and techniques have historically worked best for most people. In other words, "the basics."

Basics are kinda boring, they're not hard to find, they don't make you look like an expert, but here's the thing: THEY WORK.
 

Fletch1

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Scrolling thru here looking for info on Intervals for cycling and saw my "good friend" Tabata. I was interested in how this work translated to cycling as I use it for wrestling and martial arts. I use a GYMBOSS timer that has a dual subsequent count-up/ count-down so I can set a different time for rest vs work. Having a rest period that is half as long as my work period was horrible at first as I had been conditioned from cycling/ racing years ago that rest had to be equal to or greater than the work time to be efficient training.

Once I had a month of Tabata 20-10 x 8 (4 minutes per workout), I found myself recovering much more rapidly even at an elevated cardio state. The trick however, is to do an exercise that you can actually get straight into the high anaerobic work quickly without wasting any of your 20 second work period. Push too big a gear and by the time you get up to speed you are powering down for a 10 second "blink". I learned this from doing Tabatas on a Concept 2 Rower. Better to back off resistance a little so that you can more quickly get into your work zone, unless of course you are working on accelerations in that particular format.

I have not tried the 20-10 on the bike for just that reason. That and...well, Tabatas usually leave me laying on the floor heaving and I'm not sure I can push myself that hard on the bike:D .