What's done vs. what to do

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Rtk, Dec 6, 2003.

  1. Rtk

    Rtk Guest

    Having just read some surprising advice about backstroke,I would like to write about an observation
    I've made repeatedly. It's easy to see how a stroke is swum by just watching the best, but on the
    rare occasions when one can peek into the mind of the best swimmer, what you see is very often not
    what you get. A good example of this is Mark Spitz who arguably had perfect strokes, but in his book
    about swimming he describes doing something quite different. We've all watched the undulations of
    butterfly when done by the best, but that smooth movement is not usually the result of deliberate
    hip movement and an attempt by a novice to wave is often pretty comical. My point is that to tell a
    swimmer to do what we can see is done often doesn't work and I don't think the best coaches do that.
    Maybe it was Counsilman who said the backstroker should keep his eye on his Speedo stripe. Perfect.
    That works for very many swimmers. The butterfly's undulations are a result of good strokes and
    excellent timing, not the cause. Swim technique is subtle. It's risky to tell anyone to do it the
    way we see it without recognizing the quirks we have about our movements. Ever suggest that a person
    correct a cross-over stroke by entering two inches wider because in fact, that's how far in he/she
    is entering? Maybe entering at what she senses is 11 and 1 o'clock will work but she may have to go
    to 10 and 2 to get that sense of 12 o'clock. I've even said aim for the side walls, just to effect a
    two inch change. It's the head that has to be trained and T.L. does that with buoy analogies, while
    L.W. refers to orchestra conductors. Both have succeeded. It depends on the student. Back to that
    backstroke advice: shoulders first and then hips is a sure prescription for a major wiggle.

    Ruth Kazez
     
    Tags:


  2. Donald Graft

    Donald Graft Guest

    "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >[...] Back to that backstroke advice: shoulders first and then hips is a sure prescription for a
    >major wiggle.

    Are you saying that the shoulders and hips should roll only in unison? If not, can you please
    elaborate and explain why trunk *twisting* (not bending) should lead to wiggling, and why the elites
    that use this kind of rotation do not wriggle. Thank you.

    Don
     
  3. Rtk

    Rtk Guest

    Responding to myself. After I wrote this, the backstroke advice was clarified. It was not first
    shoulders, then hips, rotation as I read it in the first note. So I take back my last sentence.

    rtk

    rtk wrote:

    > Having just read some surprising advice about backstroke
    ...........................
    > Back to that backstroke advice: shoulders first and then hips is a sure prescription for a
    > major wiggle.
    >
    > Ruth Kazez
     
  4. Brian D

    Brian D Guest

    On 3 Dec, rtk <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Ever suggest that a person correct a cross-over stroke by entering two inches wider because in
    > fact, that's how far in he/she is entering? Maybe entering at what she senses is 11 and 1
    > o'clock will work but she may have to go to 10 and 2 to get that sense of 12 o'clock.

    After a few years without a coach I came under the eye of a new coach who I asked to try to improve
    my backstroke, which was my worst stroke.

    Previously with my previous coach I had been entering far too wide and this had changed over the
    uncoached years to overreaching.

    She told me to enter at 11 and 1 and then she changed it to 9 and 3. I complied, but it felt real
    weird. I could see my arms out of the corner of my eye going up to 12 0'clock, but my brain said
    they were at 9 and 3.

    It was very weird for a couple of weeks and then I started to see an improvement.

    --
    BD add 1 to from address to reply [13435]
     
  5. Dakitty

    Dakitty Guest

    Just recently I watched the Richard Quick series of videos about strokes (Backstroke including) I'd
    higly recommend those videos. They include a lot of descriptive info about the stroke, and a number
    of stroke drills. http://www.swiminfo.com/swimshop/shop_detail.asp?iPid=810&iCatId=810

    "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Having just read some surprising advice about backstroke,I would like to write about an
    > observation I've made repeatedly. It's easy to see how a stroke is swum by just watching the best,
    > but on the rare occasions when one can peek into the mind of the best swimmer, what you see is
    > very often not what you get. A good example of this is Mark Spitz who arguably had perfect
    > strokes, but in his book about swimming he describes doing something quite different. We've all
    > watched the undulations of butterfly when done by the best, but that smooth movement is not
    > usually the result of deliberate hip movement and an attempt by a novice to wave is often pretty
    > comical. My point is that to tell a swimmer to do what we can see is done often doesn't work and I
    > don't think the best coaches do that. Maybe it was Counsilman who said the backstroker should keep
    > his eye on his Speedo stripe. Perfect. That works for very many swimmers. The butterfly's
    > undulations are a result of good strokes and excellent timing, not the cause. Swim technique is
    > subtle. It's risky to tell anyone to do it the way we see it without recognizing the quirks we
    > have about our movements. Ever suggest that a person correct a cross-over stroke by entering two
    > inches wider because in fact, that's how far in he/she is entering? Maybe entering at what she
    > senses is 11 and 1 o'clock will work but she may have to go to 10 and 2 to get that sense of 12
    > o'clock. I've even said aim for the side walls, just to effect a two inch change. It's the head
    > that has to be trained and T.L. does that with buoy analogies, while L.W. refers to orchestra
    > conductors. Both have succeeded. It depends on the student. Back to that backstroke advice:
    > shoulders first and then hips is a sure prescription for a major wiggle.
    >
    > Ruth Kazez
     
  6. Totalswimm

    Totalswimm Guest

    >It's easy to see how a stroke is swum by just watching the best, but on the rare occasions when one
    >can peek into the mind of the best swimmer, what you see is very often not what you get.

    The weakness of much writing about swimming technique is that it has been based on observing, then
    reporting, on what various analysts see when they watch elite swimmers. They most often report
    their observations in a level of detail that is far beyond what any swimmer could possibly process
    in the fraction of a second it takes to complete a stroke. Ernie Maglischo, for instance, devoted
    18 pages of his 2nd edition, Swimming Even Faster, to describing and analyzing what happens from
    catch to finish in the freestyle armstroke. But the amount of info that can be effectively
    processed while executing it is limited to one or two salient focal points -- each quite broad. So
    the highly technical approach may be okay for academic study but is usually of little value in
    helping a live swimmer.

    Those coaches who are the most effective teachers recognize those limitations and are never wordy in
    teaching. They employ visual (peer modeling or video examples), doing, pithy vivid feedback, and
    having the swimmer teach someone else. Terry
     
  7. Rtk

    Rtk Guest

    It's like calling one fly kick the first while someone else may call it the second. I say hip leads
    the turn, but it's not different from what you describe.

    rtk

    Donald Graft wrote:

    > "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>[...] Back to that backstroke advice: shoulders first and then hips is a sure prescription for a
    >>major wiggle.
    >
    >
    > Are you saying that the shoulders and hips should roll only in unison? If not, can you please
    > elaborate and explain why trunk *twisting* (not bending) should lead to wiggling, and why the
    > elites that use this kind of rotation do not wriggle. Thank you.
    >
    > Don
     
  8. Mike Edey

    Mike Edey Guest

    On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:06:31 +0000, Totalswimm wrote:

    >>It's easy to see how a stroke is swum by just watching the best, but on the rare occasions when
    >>one can peek into the mind of the best swimmer, what you see is very often not what you get.
    >
    > The weakness of much writing about swimming technique is that it has been based on observing, then
    > reporting, on what various analysts see when they watch elite swimmers. They most often report
    > their observations in a level of detail that is far beyond what any swimmer

    <snip>

    > Those coaches who are the most effective teachers recognize those limitations and are never wordy
    > in teaching. They employ visual (peer modeling or video examples), doing, pithy vivid feedback,
    > and having the swimmer teach someone else. Terry

    As an athlete the most, the _most_ useful tool I'd ever used was the one workout I'd been able to
    swim (scm) in the lane with Popov's mirror at the AIS. Unbelievable. Knowing what a stroke should
    look like, knowing what your stroke does look like and knowing what either feel like are three (ok
    4) completely different things. The only thing that ever came close to that kind of feedback loop
    were the workouts we did with a coach consisting (nearly completely) of dive 25's with a dash of
    video review in between.

    --Mike
     
  9. Donald Graft

    Donald Graft Guest

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