What's the engineer's take on Double Cycle?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Gary Young, Apr 4, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Gary Young

    Gary Young Guest

    A recent issue of VeloVision showed some bicycle designs by Damián Calvo. In a nutshell, his frames
    consist of two plates that totally enclose the gearing. My layman's impression was that this guy is
    amazingly inventive and imaginative, even if his ideas ultimately prove to be daft. I'd be curious
    what the engineers have to say. His website is: www.doublecycle.com.
     
    Tags:


  2. Ted Bennett

    Ted Bennett Guest

    [email protected] (Gary Young) wrote:

    > A recent issue of VeloVision showed some bicycle designs by Damián Calvo. In a nutshell, his
    > frames consist of two plates that totally enclose the gearing. My layman's impression was that
    > this guy is amazingly inventive and imaginative, even if his ideas ultimately prove to be daft.
    > I'd be curious what the engineers have to say. His website is: www.doublecycle.com.

    It's another in a long line of attempts to re-invent the bicycle. There really isn't anything
    fundamentally new here; the author sees some failings with the standard design and attempts to
    do better.

    He has not succeeded. Replacing the highly efficient tubular or monocoque with plates will require
    higher weight and greater aerodynamic losses. Replacing the roller chain with a gear train will
    certainly cost more in money, weight and efficiency. And that regenerative braking energy storage
    thing sounds great until you take a close look at how much energy it costs to store the energy and
    carry that weight uphill.

    My advice, and I am neither engineer nor investment analyst, is to stay away and watch from the
    sidelines as this thing sinks into oblivion.

    --
    Ted Bennett Portland OR
     
  3. Nosmo

    Nosmo Guest

    Looks like it's designed by Stevie Wonder

    "Gary Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > A recent issue of VeloVision showed some bicycle designs by Damián Calvo. In a nutshell, his
    > frames consist of two plates that totally enclose the gearing. My layman's impression was that
    > this guy is amazingly inventive and imaginative, even if his ideas ultimately prove to be daft.
    > I'd be curious what the engineers have to say. His website is: www.doublecycle.com.
     
  4. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Gary Young writes:

    > A recent issue of VeloVision showed some bicycle designs by Damián Calvo. In a nutshell, his
    > frames consist of two plates that totally enclose the gearing. My layman's impression was that
    > this guy is amazingly inventive and imaginative, even if his ideas ultimately prove to be daft.
    > I'd be curious what the engineers have to say. His website is: www.doublecycle.com.

    This man is NOT and engineer but perhaps an artist whose aesthetics leans toward the rectangular
    (box). Just the volume of metal used in every aspect of this thing is dismaying. What problem was he
    trying to solve?

    He is daft.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  5. Bruce Lange

    Bruce Lange Guest

    This may not be the most functionally useful idea ever to hit bicycling, but it troubles me how
    different approaches to human power are always dragged through the mud when they are brought up
    here. Even if they've been tried before without success, inovation ought to be encouraged. It's good
    to keep in mind that they're more than one way to skin a cat. It's not useful to insist that the
    upright, diamond-frame, chain-driven bicycle is the only way to do things. We could all be on
    hi-wheelers if it wern't for people who were willing to take a different angle on things. As long as
    this guy has the money to do this, why not?

    -Bruce-

    "Gary Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > A recent issue of VeloVision showed some bicycle designs by Damián Calvo. In a nutshell, his
    > frames consist of two plates that totally enclose the gearing. My layman's impression was that
    > this guy is amazingly inventive and imaginative, even if his ideas ultimately prove to be daft.
    > I'd be curious what the engineers have to say. His website is: www.doublecycle.com.
     
  6. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Bruce Lange writes:

    > This may not be the most functionally useful idea ever to hit bicycling, but it troubles me how
    > different approaches to human power are always dragged through the mud when they are brought up
    > here. Even if they've been tried before without success, inovation ought to be encouraged. It's
    > good to keep in mind that they're more than one way to skin a cat. It's not useful to insist that
    > the upright, diamond-frame, chain-driven bicycle is the only way to do things. We could all be on
    > hi-wheelers if it wern't for people who were willing to take a different angle on things. As long
    > as this guy has the money to do this, why not?

    You seem to be saying that all mechanical designs are worth considering even if they show enormous
    flaws on all fronts. This one in particular does not add anything to technology although it confuses
    non technical people who view it without critical appraisal.

    I think that before applying your argument, the purpose of such a design should be stated. This one
    ,as shown, does not solve any problems that are not better solved at present. It isn't just a slight
    deviation from reasonable design but rather a major departure from the state of the art that it
    ignores. Other than having two wheels, I see no functional similarity with what we call a bicycle.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  7. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Perusing the web site:

    http://www.doublecycle.com/

    I looked more closely at some of the models. It appears these bicycles have not been tested. They
    display major flaws in design that would make them highly impractical to ride. The steering axis is
    vertical and substantially behind the front wheel center. In fact the road bicycle's steering axis
    is behind the rear edge of the front wheel. Besides this dimensional problem, the crank spindle lies
    above the wheels centers meaning that with a saddle at a reasonable distance above the pedals would
    put a rider so high that dismounting would be like from a high wheeler of old.

    The saddles shown seem to suggest that the inventor perceives a problem with the rider slipping off
    the rear of the saddle, although no current bicycles seem to have had this problem. A bicycle with
    the saddle tilted downward at a 20 degree angle tells me that the operator does not ride bike...
    other than theoretically.

    This whole project is an expensive frivolous waste of money.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  8. Jon Isaacs

    Jon Isaacs Guest

    >A recent issue of VeloVision showed some bicycle designs by Damián Calvo. In a nutshell, his frames
    >consist of two plates that totally enclose the gearing. My layman's impression was that this guy is
    >amazingly inventive and imaginative, even if his ideas ultimately prove to be daft. I'd be curious
    >what the engineers have to say. His website is: www.doublecycle.com.
    >

    As a cyclist these designs seem cumbersome, potentially heavy and awkward, my guess is that the
    designer is not a cyclist.

    My guess is that the designer is also not a mechanic. Putting all the mechanical elements inside the
    frame plates makes repair and adjustment significantly more complicated than necessary.

    My guess is that the designer is not familiar with Q factor nor with riding a bicycle in a
    cross wind.

    KISS

    Jon Isaacs
     
  9. Jon Isaacs

    Jon Isaacs Guest

    >This may not be the most functionally useful idea ever to hit bicycling, but it troubles me
    >how different approaches to human power are always dragged through the mud when they are
    >brought up here.

    >Even if they've been tried before without success, inovation ought to be encouraged.

    Innovation ought to be encouraged. But innovation requires understanding of the issues and problems
    associated with bicycles and with cycling.

    What problems is this design addressing, what advantages does this design have when compared to
    existing bicycles.

    Do you think this design has merit?

    >It's not useful to insist that the upright, diamond-frame, chain-driven bicycle is the only way to
    >do things. We could all be on hi-wheelers if it wern't for people who were willing to take a
    >different angle on things.

    I suggest that it is indeed useful to understand the advantages of the diamond frame chain-driven
    bicycle and why this design has been so successful.

    It is a solution quickly evolved in the 1890's and has only evolutionarily changed since then.

    From what I saw of this design, it did know show and understanding of the problems bicycles face and
    besides would necessarily be significantly heavier than a traditional bike.

    So, I ask this question: What are the problems, issues, improvements with the current designs and
    that might be addressed by an innovative design?

    >As long as this guy has the money to do this, why not?

    Plates are a rather poor way to build a bike frame. Nothing wrong with someone spending their money
    how they want to, hey if you want to go to Vegas and spend it on some booze, thats good too.

    Jon Isaacs
     
  10. Bfd

    Bfd Guest

    "nosmo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Looks like it's designed by Stevie Wonder
    >
    >
    > "Gary Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > A recent issue of VeloVision showed some bicycle designs by Damián Calvo. In a nutshell, his
    > > frames consist of two plates that totally enclose the gearing. My layman's impression was that
    > > this guy is amazingly inventive and imaginative, even if his ideas ultimately prove to be daft.
    > > I'd be curious what the engineers have to say. His website is: www.doublecycle.com.

    About as ugglly as the Kirk Precision bike here: http://www.firstflightbikes.com/KirkPrecision.html

    Hopefully, its not as brittle....
     
  11. [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > This man is NOT and engineer but perhaps an artist whose aesthetics leans toward the rectangular
    > (box). Just the volume of metal used in every aspect of this thing is dismaying. What problem was
    > he trying to solve?
    >
    > He is daft.

    Agreed. Just out of curiousity, however, has anyone ever tried that 'rim drive gear' setup? I
    suppose the driving gear rotational speed would be a real problem.

    - Brian "that, and the big whirling toothed wheel" Huntley
     
  12. Jay Beattie

    Jay Beattie Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Perusing the web site:
    >
    > http://www.doublecycle.com/
    >
    > I looked more closely at some of the models. It appears these bicycles have not been tested. They
    > display major flaws in design that would make them highly impractical to ride. The steering axis
    > is vertical and substantially behind the front wheel center. In fact the road bicycle's steering
    > axis is behind the rear edge of the front wheel. Besides this dimensional problem, the crank
    > spindle lies above the wheels centers meaning that with a saddle at a reasonable distance above
    > the pedals would put a rider so high that dismounting would be like from a high wheeler of old.
    >
    > The saddles shown seem to suggest that the inventor perceives a problem with the rider slipping
    > off the rear of the saddle, although no current bicycles seem to have had this problem. A bicycle
    > with the saddle tilted downward at a 20 degree angle tells me that the operator does not ride
    > bike... other than theoretically.
    >
    > This whole project is an expensive frivolous waste of money.

    Furthermore, in the description of prior art, there is no mention of a similar bike that I made
    using an Erector Set in 1960 and which I raced extensively at the local Kiddy Kilo. I spent
    considerable effort on my bike, which I designed after several earlier failures with Lincoln Logs.
    -- Jay Beattie.
     
  13. [email protected] wrote:

    : This man is NOT and engineer but perhaps an artist whose aesthetics leans toward the rectangular
    : (box). Just the volume of metal used in every aspect of this thing is dismaying. What problem was
    : he trying to solve?

    : He is daft.

    Admit it, you're just afraid the next thing he invents will be the Plate Wheel!

    - mark
     
  14. Gary Young writes:

    >>A recent issue of VeloVision showed some bicycle designs by Dami=E1n Calvo. In a nutshell, his
    >>frames consist of two plates that totally enclose the gearing. My layman's impression was that
    >>this guy is amazingly inventive and imaginative, even if his ideas ultimately prove to be daft.
    >>I'd be curious what the engineers have to say. His website is: www.doublecycle.com.

    Jobst wrote:

    > This man is NOT and engineer but perhaps an artist whose aesthetics leans toward the rectangular
    > (box). Just the volume of metal used in every aspect of this thing is dismaying. What problem was
    > he trying to solve?
    >=20
    > He is daft.

    Jobst is known for sometimes excessively harsh criticism, but I think=20 he's being very kind in
    this instance.

    Assuming the wheels are standard size wheels, these ludicrous drawings=20 show a vehicle with 13-15
    inches of negative trail. I would expect them =

    to be virtually impossible to balance, likely to jackknife immediately.

    The appear to be proportioned for orangutans, not for humans, if you=20 look at the relationships of
    the saddles, bottom brackets and handlebars.=

    This person doesn't have a clue about bicycles.

    Sheldon "Balderdash" Brown +-----------------------------------------+
    | If a fool would persist in his folly, | he would become wise. | --William Blake |
    +-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
    617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  15. Richard

    Richard Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > This man is NOT and engineer but perhaps an artist whose aesthetics leans toward the rectangular
    > (box). Just the volume of metal used in every aspect of this thing is dismaying. What problem was
    > he trying to solve?
    >
    > He is daft.
    Are you kidding? He could sell that silver monstrosity to the army. It would look great along side
    the Abrams tank and Bradley viehicle. (I can't spell and I can't type, either) Richard
     
  16. Doug Goncz

    Doug Goncz Guest

    It looks a lot like some of my earliest designs. The most simple components possible. No concept at
    all of the range of manufacturing processes available. Parts that can be made simply in quantities
    of one, not taking advantage of the possibility of jigs and fixtures providing lighter, more
    functional parts made in thousands.

    As if the designer took pieces of paper and pasted them onto the desired material, then cut out the
    parts. No 3D thinking.

    It'd be nice to have the gearing inside, but a front fender seems to keep my chain pretty clean.

    A low-entropy design, from a designer unaware of the capabilities of modern manufacture. In a world
    where everyone had a special Xerox machine that could copy flat parts, it'd be great, almost
    self-reproducing. But in the real world, no.

    Yours,

    Doug Goncz, Replikon Research, Seven Corners, VA http://users.aol.com/DGoncz If a computer won't do
    what needs to be done, lie to it. If a person won't do what needs to be done, tell them the truth.
     
  17. Are you sure that is the front wheel? Perhaps it is a bicycle from some paralell universe where time
    works in reverse and the bicycle shown is some sort of time machine meant to be ridden backwards.

    "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]... Gary Young writes:

    >>A recent issue of VeloVision showed some bicycle designs by Damián Calvo. In a nutshell, his
    >>frames consist of two plates that totally enclose the gearing. My layman's impression was that
    >>this guy is amazingly inventive and imaginative, even if his ideas ultimately prove to be daft.
    >>I'd be curious what the engineers have to say. His website is: www.doublecycle.com.

    Jobst wrote:

    > This man is NOT and engineer but perhaps an artist whose aesthetics leans toward the rectangular
    > (box). Just the volume of metal used in every aspect of this thing is dismaying. What problem was
    > he trying to solve?
    >
    > He is daft.

    Jobst is known for sometimes excessively harsh criticism, but I think he's being very kind in
    this instance.

    Assuming the wheels are standard size wheels, these ludicrous drawings show a vehicle with 13-15
    inches of negative trail. I would expect them to be virtually impossible to balance, likely to
    jackknife immediately.

    The appear to be proportioned for orangutans, not for humans, if you look at the relationships of
    the saddles, bottom brackets and handlebars.

    This person doesn't have a clue about bicycles.

    Sheldon "Balderdash" Brown +-----------------------------------------+
    | If a fool would persist in his folly, | he would become wise. | --William Blake |
    +-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
    617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  18. I can't stop thinking about this, somebody put me out of my mysery.

    How well is that gear near the rim going to stay round and true?

    How fast will the tiny gears inside wear?

    How much gunk will be deposited inside the machine from the gear turning near the tire?

    How much smarter is this guy than me? He seems to be getting funded to do something incredibly
    stupid, that takes talent! "Gary Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > A recent issue of VeloVision showed some bicycle designs by Damián Calvo. In a nutshell, his
    > frames consist of two plates that totally enclose the gearing. My layman's impression was that
    > this guy is amazingly inventive and imaginative, even if his ideas ultimately prove to be daft.
    > I'd be curious what the engineers have to say. His website is: www.doublecycle.com.
     
  19. [email protected] (Gary Young) writes:

    > A recent issue of VeloVision showed some bicycle designs by Damián Calvo. In a nutshell, his
    > frames consist of two plates that totally enclose the gearing. My layman's impression was that
    > this guy is amazingly inventive and imaginative, even if his ideas ultimately prove to be daft.
    > I'd be curious what the engineers have to say. His website is: www.doublecycle.com.

    I'm an engineer, and this is what I have to say:

    Imagine a team of engineers who, without any prior knowledge of bicycles were assigned the project
    of creating the "Two wheeled, inline, dynamically balanced vehicle".

    In fact when you think of it - this is excactly that, a "Two wheeled, inline, dynamically balanced
    vehicle" - not a bicycle.

    Anyway back to our team, at some point, rather early in their effort they would have a working
    design somewhat like the Double Cycle, and everyone would be frustrated because the project was
    getting nowhere.

    Then, one morning one of the engineers would come to work with glowing cheeks and say somthing like:
    "Hey guys, while I was taking the kids to kindergarten this morning I got this fabolous idea - we
    don't have to use those silly plates for the frame, we can use tubes - and if we weld them together
    like .... I'll make a drawing here ... and.. and we could call it a double triangle frame - no,
    wait, diamond, thats it: 'diamond frame'."

    And everyone would say like: "Wy didn't I think of that?".

    --
    Øyvind Røtvold __o http://www.darkside.no/olr/index.html _`\(,_ ... biciclare necesse est
    ... (_)/ (_)
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...