What's up with my power profile?!



Piotr

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Jan 29, 2007
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Not that I'm complaining about it, but I'd like you guys to give me some feedback. Perhaps you can share your own power profile with everyone as well. This isn't about the numbers as much as the profile shape.

I know that it's not unusual for a beginner to have a relatively low FTP value, but I've been at it for a few years. I've also been training with power the last 2 seasons with an emphasis on raising my FTP. You know, the 2 x 20's and SST, and with good results. But when it's all said and done my 5 min sees the biggest increase. I'm obviously no TT-ist or a sprinter, so am I a pursuiter?

What about 5 min power? Does really indicate a high VO2max? I find it hard to believe that I could have a relatively high VO2max and yet such a relatively low FTP. OTOH, if my 5 min result is so AC-endowed then why do I excel over 5 min rather than 1 min? I haven't done a whole lot of L5 or L6 training (definitely not twice a week for 5-6 weeks straight), with the overall training days probably split evenly between the two and the majority emphasizing L4. So far I've explained it as having low muscular endurance or mitochondria count. But having spend so much time on L4 my 5 min power gets pushed even higher. :confused:

Most people I ride with think I'm a climber (I'm only 55 kg). But would you call that a climber's profile? Now that there's serious talk of building a velodrome nearby :), I'm reconsidering what I should emphasize in training. Does a high 5 min value actually indicate a particular talent?

Anyways, I'd appreciate anyone adding to the discussion of power profiling.
 
Your profile is what it is. The shape may change over time, but you're probably never going to get FTP ahead of 5m. That doesn't mean you can't improve the hell out of FTP though.

If you're going to be road racing, I'd say to continue focusing on FTP gains, but don't worry if the power profile doesn't flatten. With a strong 5m power, on the road, you can look for opportunities to escape 2 miles from the finish and just drill it. I'm sure it would also be very useful for bridging to breaks. You need to stay out of sprints, so work to get away from the sprinters, with multiple attacks if needed.

Heaven help the pack if there's a tough climb 1 mile from the finish and you're in the pack. Light it up.

Below is my profile from my last peak. The yellow was the peak, the gray is the start of the season. Once I realized how much stronger my sprint and 1m power were, I completely stopped training them. I focused on SST, and once/week 5m intervals.

As my FTP pushed up, it really pushed the shorter durations up. I was surprised to see the 1m power take such a leap. I changed my racing strategy completely such that I was attacking from 750m instead of waiting for the bunch sprint. The greater FTP allowed me to arrive at the last kilo much stronger, and allowed me to ensure I'd be in the front group for that effort.

 
Piotr said:
Not that I'm complaining about it, but I'd like you guys to give me some feedback. Perhaps you can share your own power profile with everyone as well. This isn't about the numbers as much as the profile shape.

I know that it's not unusual for a beginner to have a relatively low FTP value, but I've been at it for a few years. I've also been training with power the last 2 seasons with an emphasis on raising my FTP. You know, the 2 x 20's and SST, and with good results. But when it's all said and done my 5 min sees the biggest increase. I'm obviously no TT-ist or a sprinter, so am I a pursuiter?

What about 5 min power? Does really indicate a high VO2max? I find it hard to believe that I could have a relatively high VO2max and yet such a relatively low FTP. OTOH, if my 5 min result is so AC-endowed then why do I excel over 5 min rather than 1 min? I haven't done a whole lot of L5 or L6 training (definitely not twice a week for 5-6 weeks straight), with the overall training days probably split evenly between the two and the majority emphasizing L4. So far I've explained it as having low muscular endurance or mitochondria count. But having spend so much time on L4 my 5 min power gets pushed even higher. :confused:

Most people I ride with think I'm a climber (I'm only 55 kg). But would you call that a climber's profile? Now that there's serious talk of building a velodrome nearby :), I'm reconsidering what I should emphasize in training. Does a high 5 min value actually indicate a particular talent?

Anyways, I'd appreciate anyone adding to the discussion of power profiling.

I think that:

1) the reason that your 5 s power doesn't appear to be higher is because you're comparing yourself against match sprinters, i.e., for a roadie 18+ W/kg means that you've probably got a pretty good jump;

2) your anaerobic capacity is also quite good;

3) as a result of #2, your 5 min power is slightly "inflated";

3) your functional threshold power is lower on the table relative to your 5 min power because of #3 and also because you haven't been training and racing all that long/in such a manner as to "max it out" ; and finally

4) despite your power profile, at only 55 kg the individual pursuit may not be your best event unless you are A) really aero and/or B) a woman (which based on previous comments I don't believe is the case).

On the whole, then, I'd say that at least for now you should view yourself as a bit of an "all rounder", with your greatest opportunities for wins coming from racing on hilly courses and trying to get into a small breakaway and then gambling on the sprint at the end (against presumably other lighter riders).
 
waterrockets said:
Your profile is what it is. The shape may change over time, but you're probably never going to get FTP ahead of 5m. That doesn't mean you can't improve the hell out of FTP though.

If you're going to be road racing, I'd say to continue focusing on FTP gains, but don't worry if the power profile doesn't flatten. With a strong 5m power, on the road, you can look for opportunities to escape 2 miles from the finish and just drill it. I'm sure it would also be very useful for bridging to breaks. You need to stay out of sprints, so work to get away from the sprinters, with multiple attacks if needed.

Heaven help the pack if there's a tough climb 1 mile from the finish and you're in the pack. Light it up.

Below is my profile from my last peak. The yellow was the peak, the gray is the start of the season. Once I realized how much stronger my sprint and 1m power were, I completely stopped training them. I focused on SST, and once/week 5m intervals.

As my FTP pushed up, it really pushed the shorter durations up. I was surprised to see the 1m power take such a leap. I changed my racing strategy completely such that I was attacking from 750m instead of waiting for the bunch sprint. The greater FTP allowed me to arrive at the last kilo much stronger, and allowed me to ensure I'd be in the front group for that effort.

Thanks for your input. Indeed, I have been racing my strengths much the way you recommend. My first win last spring was a criterium where on the last lap I bridged to a remaining escapee and went around him in the final stretch. I intend to keep training with FTP in mind though as I enjoy hilly road races and hillclimbs more than criteriums. You on the other hand should probably give pursuit a try. Since IIRC you're a bigger guy, and with 10.12 w/kg over 1 min the sky's the limit. :)
 
acoggan said:
I think that:

1) the reason that your 5 s power doesn't appear to be higher is because you're comparing yourself against match sprinters, i.e., for a roadie 18+ W/kg means that you've probably got a pretty good jump;

2) your anaerobic capacity is also quite good;

3) as a result of #2, your 5 min power is slightly "inflated";

3) your functional threshold power is lower on the table relative to your 5 min power because of #3 and also because you haven't been training and racing all that long/in such a manner as to "max it out" ; and finally

4) despite your power profile, at only 55 kg the individual pursuit may not be your best event unless you are A) really aero and/or B) a woman (which based on previous comments I don't believe is the case).

On the whole, then, I'd say that at least for now you should view yourself as a bit of an "all rounder", with your greatest opportunities for wins coming from racing on hilly courses and trying to get into a small breakaway and then gambling on the sprint at the end (against presumably other lighter riders).
Andy, thank you for your analysis. Yes, I find myself in a situation where I'm not talented enough to be an excellent climber, and not quite powerful enough to be a pursuiter. :(

FYI, according to the calculation in the monod.xls spreadsheet my AWC is 350-375 kJ depending on which tested values I plug in, so that only confirms what I already suspected. I also did a MAP test this weekend, which resulted in a value of 371W AP over the last minute. That puts my tested FTP @ 72% of MAP, again implying that my shorter durations are AWC-enhanced. I never really believed in the high VO2max theory since the best I've been able to do as far as L5 training was 6 x 5 min @ 295W. Compare that with 345 W for my 5 min PB.

I speculated about what if I happen to be quite aerodynamic (I do have a small and narrow upper body), and I really dedicated myself to pursuit-type training. As I mentioned before I never really spent a lot of time training L5/L6 zones as I was afraid to neglect my FTP. I guess that could be an interesting experiment for next spring. :cool:
 
Piotr said:
Andy, thank you for your analysis. Yes, I find myself in a situation where I'm not talented enough to be an excellent climber, and not quite powerful enough to be a pursuiter. :(

FYI, according to the calculation in the monod.xls spreadsheet my AWC is 350-375 kJ depending on which tested values I plug in, so that only confirms what I already suspected. I also did a MAP test this weekend, which resulted in a value of 371W AP over the last minute. That puts my tested FTP @ 72% of MAP, again implying that my shorter durations are AWC-enhanced. I never really believed in the high VO2max theory since the best I've been able to do as far as L5 training was 6 x 5 min @ 295W. Compare that with 345 W for my 5 min PB.

I speculated about what if I happen to be quite aerodynamic (I do have a small and narrow upper body), and I really dedicated myself to pursuit-type training. As I mentioned before I never really spent a lot of time training L5/L6 zones as I was afraid to neglect my FTP. I guess that could be an interesting experiment for next spring. :cool:
Now did you mean 35-37.5 kJ or 350-375 J/kg?

An absolute value of 350-375 kJ :eek: would be mega-high for a human ... I wonder what the animal kingdom range might be? ??
 
rmur17 said:
Now did you mean 35-37.5 kJ or 350-375 J/kg?

An absolute value of 350-375 kJ :eek: would be mega-high for a human ... I wonder what the animal kingdom range might be? ??
To be perfectly honest I don't know what I meant. :eek: That Monod spreadsheet that I got from Wattage reads CP = 4.8, AWC = 372 (no units). After a quick Wattage search I found this (must be logged in to view), so I guess that would be J/kg. Thanks for pointing that out. BTW, wouldn't 35-37.5 kJ also be kinda high for a human? :)
 
Piotr said:
To be perfectly honest I don't know what I meant. :eek: That Monod spreadsheet that I got from Wattage reads CP = 4.8, AWC = 372 (no units). After a quick Wattage search I found this (must be logged in to view), so I guess that would be J/kg. Thanks for pointing that out. BTW, wouldn't 35-37.5 kJ also be kinda high for a human? :)
not for a track bloke IIRC but for a typical 60-70 kg road cyclist I guess it would
 
Piotr said:
I speculated about what if I happen to be quite aerodynamic (I do have a small and narrow upper body), and I really dedicated myself to pursuit-type training.

My guess? That on an indoor track such as LA you could ride a 4:50-5:10. That's based on the following assumptions:

1) your aerodynamic drag is comparable to that of elite female cyclists who are about your mass (and presumably height);

2) you could generate the same power for ~5 min when circling a track in the aero position at a pursuit-specific cadence as under the conditions during which you set your 5 min PB;

3) you rode the track enough to master all of the other little details required to fully "express" your potential as a pursuiter.
 
acoggan said:
My guess? That on an indoor track such as LA you could ride a 4:50-5:10. That's based on the following assumptions:

1) your aerodynamic drag is comparable to that of elite female cyclists who are about your mass (and presumably height);

2) you could generate the same power for ~5 min when circling a track in the aero position at a pursuit-specific cadence as under the conditions during which you set your 5 min PB;

3) you rode the track enough to master all of the other little details required to fully "express" your potential as a pursuiter.
I sincerely hope that your guess is also based on an assumption that I'm interested in racing a 4000 m pursuit :eek:. That is not the case as I'm 41. The only goal I have is to be competitive in the regional master's field at whichever event will bring me most success (dreams of national level competition were shattered a few minutes into my first citizen's race :eek: many year's ago). Unfortunately, 1 mile hillclimbs are few and far between :). I did place 5th in Utah Master's Championship RR though.

My thinking is (again, I'm assuming you meant 4k pursuit) that if I could concentrate on maxing out my strengths over the next 2-3 years I can see myself pushing over 400 W for 4 minutes. OTOH, if you're calculations are based on a distance of 3k, I'll just put my tail between my legs and go back to doing my SST's. :)
 
Piotr said:
I sincerely hope that your guess is also based on an assumption that I'm interested in racing a 4000 m pursuit :eek:.
Andy's estimations would be for 4000m pursuit.

Based on those I'd say you're looking at a ~ 3:40 - 3:50 3000m time
 
Alex Simmons said:
Andy's estimations would be for 4000m pursuit.

Based on those I'd say you're looking at a ~ 3:40 - 3:50 3000m time
And suddenly life is wonderful again. :D
 
Piotr said:
Waterrockets,
I'd don't know if you're familiar with this article about a kilo rider, but if not it may be an interesting read for you. There's a WKO file download link at the bottom too.

Thanks, yeah, I had seen that in the past. It makes me wish there was a velodrome in Austin.

Reading the article is funny too, as I'm in a weight loss cycle right now, which they're suggesting for Doug. If I can get back to my last 1m test, I'll be at 10.77 W/kg for 1m and 21.3 W/kg for 5s.

The perplexing thing is that with lower weight, you lose power out of the saddle. Anyone know any mitigation for this? I don't believe I'll actually be able to get back to those wattages because of the out-of-saddle losses.
 
waterrockets said:
The perplexing thing is that with lower weight, you lose power out of the saddle. Anyone know any mitigation for this?

It is very, very difficult to lose weight without also losing at least some lean body (muscle) mass. Exercise training, however, tends to mitigate said loss. I would therefore hypothesize that the reason you are experiencing a decline in out-of-the-saddle but not seated power is because your upper body musculature, being used much less, is taking the biggest "hit". If so, a solution might be to lift weights using your upper body - however, that would tend to counteract the weight loss you are pursuing in the first place.

(Another possibility is that you are simply seeing a greater reduction in short term vs. longer term power as a result of dieting, but test the former while pedaling out of the saddle at least part of the time.)
 
Piotr said:
I sincerely hope that your guess is also based on an assumption that I'm interested in racing a 4000 m pursuit :eek:. That is not the case as I'm 41. The only goal I have is to be competitive in the regional master's field at whichever event will bring me most success (dreams of national level competition were shattered a few minutes into my first citizen's race :eek: many year's ago). Unfortunately, 1 mile hillclimbs are few and far between :). I did place 5th in Utah Master's Championship RR though.

My thinking is (again, I'm assuming you meant 4k pursuit) that if I could concentrate on maxing out my strengths over the next 2-3 years I can see myself pushing over 400 W for 4 minutes. OTOH, if you're calculations are based on a distance of 3k, I'll just put my tail between my legs and go back to doing my SST's. :)

Sorry, I didn't realize that you were a fellow "masters fattie". ;)

For 3 km, I agree with Alex's estimate (although based on what I've seen by way of power and pursuit data for elite US women about your mass, tending towards the high end of that range).
 
acoggan said:
Sorry, I didn't realize that you were a fellow "masters fattie". ;)

....
True that! I'm just glad I'm no longer out of shape and 135 lbs. :D
 
acoggan said:
It is very, very difficult to lose weight without also losing at least some lean body (muscle) mass. Exercise training, however, tends to mitigate said loss. I would therefore hypothesize that the reason you are experiencing a decline in out-of-the-saddle but not seated power is because your upper body musculature, being used much less, is taking the biggest "hit". If so, a solution might be to lift weights using your upper body - however, that would tend to counteract the weight loss you are pursuing in the first place.

(Another possibility is that you are simply seeing a greater reduction in short term vs. longer term power as a result of dieting, but test the former while pedaling out of the saddle at least part of the time.)

Yeah, I'm not too concerned about it. I wasn't losing races because of sprints this year. Getting to the final kilo with more in the tank is much more important at this point, and W/kg FTP is where it's at for that.

I did a 5s test today and came in a 1487W, which is 19.2 W/kg anyway. That's still a bit higher than I was last year in raw wattage, but at 12 lbs lighter, I'm looking pretty good. I just want to push it back over 20W/kg again, and I'll be in a good position.
 

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