What's up with the butterfly?

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Zorak, Feb 13, 2004.

  1. Zorak

    Zorak Guest

    Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team starts
    in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.
     
    Tags:


  2. Donald Graft

    Donald Graft Guest

    "Zorak" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team starts
    > in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.

    You can try a fly timing drill where you recover your hands underwater by sneaking them up your
    body and do not breathe for several cycles. This allows you to go really slowly and groove the
    relative arm/leg timing. You should start from the extended streamline position and then start your
    arm pull; as the arms are moving back the legs are coming up to prepare for the downbeat. Then as
    the hands sweep past the hips the downbeat occurs. Then as you sneak your hands up, the legs
    recover again and then give another downbeat as the arms reach full forward extension. You want to
    have one downbeat as they reach extension (which will be as the arms enter the water in full
    stroke), and one downbeat as the hands reach the end of the pull. As I said, go really slow and
    easy and try to get the timing just right and grooved into your brain. You can do 4 or 5 cycles and
    then stop for a breath and continue.

    When you master this drill, the transition to full stroke is fairly easy.

    Don
     
  3. Dakitty

    Dakitty Guest

    "Zorak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team starts
    > in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.

    One of the things that I noticed helping is: Our coach had us do some drills with short fins, till
    we get the hang of the rhythm. Using fins for first few weeks sort of made the rhythm sink in
    better. Then at least when trying to duplicate that without fins, You would have a feel for what
    you;re trying to accomplish.
     
  4. M. W. Smith

    M. W. Smith Guest

    On 13 Feb 2004 17:14:44 -0800, Zorak <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team starts
    > in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.

    I gave up trying after 30 years. I think there are a few of us who simply can't learn to do it
    properly. I hope you aren't one of them, but if you are, don't lose hope. Even though I have never
    been able to coordinate the kick and pull properly, I still managed to set a few state records in
    the 200 fly in Adelaide, when I was in my 40's.

    But what do I know? You should probably ask DaKitty. She is about to qualify for the World
    Championships, and more power to her.

    martin

    --
    If you are a US citizen, please use your constitutional right to vote, because we badly need a new
    president.
     
  5. Rtk

    Rtk Guest

  6. Donald Graft

    Donald Graft Guest

  7. Rtk

    Rtk Guest

    Donald Graft wrote:

    > Can you please put it up in a plain vanilla link so that people don't have to download Macromedia
    > Flash? Thank you.
    >

    Ummmm....how do I do that? I feel very stupid. But I can't find it in any of my manuals or the
    online help.

    Ruth Kazez
     
  8. Andres Muro

    Andres Muro Guest

    [email protected] (Zorak) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team starts
    > in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.

    This is what I do. It has taken me a long time to figure it out but finally I got it, I think.

    when the arms are going into the water, you should pretend that you are diving into the water. At
    that poing you should be also kicking down, so that your lower body should be straight and so should
    your upper body.

    Once you complete your glide and your dive, you should curve your lower back ondulating to begin to
    bring your body up towards the surface again. During the ondulation that makes your body point
    upwards start your pull phase, and you begin to bend your knees. As your arms complete the pull, you
    should kick to help bring your body out of the water. this is the important kick because it helps
    you lift your shoulders and helping your arms. otherwise, the only thing that you are using is your
    arms to lift it and that is tough. Once your body comes out of the water and your arms go over the
    water, you bend your knees and kick down to propel your body into the dive.

    Again: 2 kicks. One when your body is out of the water to propel your body into a dive/glide which
    makes body point down. With arms gliding, curve back to make upper body point up and start pull
    phase. As you complete pull pahse, kick to lift shoulders out of water. come out of water and start
    to dive while kicking to propel body into dive.

    I used to kick randomly and it seemed completely chaotic. At some point I started focusing in the
    ondulation, and the kick followed naturally. I still suck, and can only do two lengths in a row
    before shitching styles.

    Did this make sense?

    Andres
     
  9. Diablo

    Diablo Guest

    simple way to do it is this:

    do fly drill (ie just for kicks swim with only your right arm, your left out in front of you. breath
    as you do in freestyle, (undet th recovering arm)).

    as the hand enters, pop the hips up, push the chest down.

    remember this simple rhythm: kick the hand in and kick it out.

    once you have mastered this with the right arm, do it with the left.

    once you have mastered the left arm, alternate between right and left, with the non-active hand out
    infront in a streamline...essentially, catch up.

    once you have mastered alternating, try both hands together, as kitty said, using fins. not zoomers,
    but fins. do not breathe to the front.

    one you have the rhythm of kicking them in and kicking them out (the hands that is), try 1 right, 1
    left, 1 together. remember to pop the hips upon entry.

    gradually increase the amount of double-arm strokes.

    only breathe to the left or right, never to the front, until you're proficient. this will stop the
    hips dropping.

    now you can swim fly.

    steve.
     
  10. Rtk

    Rtk Guest

    > Donald Graft wrote:
    >
    >> Can you please put it up in a plain vanilla link so that people don't have to download Macromedia
    >> Flash? Thank you.

    I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my stroke
    didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not compressed -
    the movie is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
    http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/e/x/exk7/C4Movie/Mothstroke.html

    rtk
     
  11. De Valois

    De Valois Guest

    Zorak left this mess on 13 Feb 2004 17:14:44 -0800 for The Way to clean up:
    >
    >Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team starts
    >in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.

    The fly starts and ends with your abdominals. Do crunches, leg lifts, oblique work, and
    miraculously, you'll find the stroke comes together.

    Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

    (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
    here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
     
  12. Andres Muro

    Andres Muro Guest

    Hi, this morning I did a few butterfly lengths to get the timing right. My previous post was pretty
    accurate. Two kicks per stroke. One on top of the water to get you to dive in. The second kick
    starts right as you finish the glyde and go into the pull face. This adds propulsion to the pull and
    helps you launch out of the water. Try to do this really slowly. I'll give you lots of power. I read
    a while back that soviet freestylers (in the olden times) used to train by doing sets of 200 mts
    fly. When they would go back to 200 and above freestyle sets, they would be able to fly (go fast,
    not swim butterfly) in the water.

    Try to swim non-stop fly drills intermingled with your freestyle. Ie, swim 200 free, 50 fly, 200
    free 50 fly, 200 free 50. When you go from fly to free, you seem to float in the water. Whenever you
    swim your next 800 mts freestyle event, it will be piece of cake. Add as much fly as you can handle
    and as soon as you finish your fly, recover while swimming free.

    Next open water swim, or tri, when you are stuck in the middle of the pacific going AT, you'll have
    the confidence to swim yourself back to an aerobic pace.

    Andres

    [email protected] (andres muro) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] (Zorak) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team
    > > starts in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.
    >
    > This is what I do. It has taken me a long time to figure it out but finally I got it, I think.
    >
    > when the arms are going into the water, you should pretend that you are diving into the water. At
    > that poing you should be also kicking down, so that your lower body should be straight and so
    > should your upper body.
    >
    > Once you complete your glide and your dive, you should curve your lower back ondulating to begin
    > to bring your body up towards the surface again. During the ondulation that makes your body point
    > upwards start your pull phase, and you begin to bend your knees. As your arms complete the pull,
    > you should kick to help bring your body out of the water. this is the important kick because it
    > helps you lift your shoulders and helping your arms. otherwise, the only thing that you are using
    > is your arms to lift it and that is tough. Once your body comes out of the water and your arms go
    > over the water, you bend your knees and kick down to propel your body into the dive.
    >
    > Again: 2 kicks. One when your body is out of the water to propel your body into a dive/glide which
    > makes body point down. With arms gliding, curve back to make upper body point up and start pull
    > phase. As you complete pull pahse, kick to lift shoulders out of water. come out of water and
    > start to dive while kicking to propel body into dive.
    >
    > I used to kick randomly and it seemed completely chaotic. At some point I started focusing in the
    > ondulation, and the kick followed naturally. I still suck, and can only do two lengths in a row
    > before shitching styles.
    >
    > Did this make sense?
    >
    > Andres
     
  13. Donald Graft

    Donald Graft Guest

    "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my
    > stroke didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not
    > compressed - the movie is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
    > http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/e/x/exk7/C4Movie/Mothstroke.html

    Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps that it
    is important to breathe on every stroke to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat when
    you do not breathe. You're not getting the body dolphin action that adds considerable propulsion to
    the stroke. IMHO, of course. :)

    I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.

    Don
     
  14. Rtk

    Rtk Guest

    Donald Graft wrote:

    ............ I would
    > agree with Michael Phelps that it is important to breathe on every stroke to get the proper
    > dolphin undulation. You are very flat when you do not breathe. ..............

    Thank you rtk
     
  15. Al

    Al Guest

    In article <[email protected]_s04>, [email protected] says...
    > "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my
    > > stroke didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not
    > > compressed - the movie is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
    > > http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/e/x/exk7/C4Movie/Mothstroke.html
    >
    > Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps that
    > it is important to breathe on every stroke to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat
    > when you do not breathe. You're not getting the body dolphin action that adds considerable
    > propulsion to the stroke. IMHO, of course. :)
    >
    > I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.
    >
    > Don

    Boy, I'm going to sound even sillier than usual disagreeing with Michael Phelps, but breathing every
    stroke as a matter of course doesn't sound like good advice to me. Or is he just recommending this
    as a stroke drill to "feel" the dolphin action? At least in my case, raising my head burns up more
    energy than the benefit of the breath provides - and isn't really required to get the dolphin action
    going (although I can see how it might for someone just starting out...)

    Throughout my swimming career, two breaths in a row in fly (or a breath on your first stroke off the
    wall) was one of the most egregious sins possible.

    Then again, Phelps' 100 fly is 10 seconds faster than mine ever was :) Does anyone happen to know
    if his opinion on fly/breathing represents the current thinking in general?

    Next time I'm in the pool I'll try a few breaths in a row - all my old coaches likely to assault me
    for this are back in Florida, California or the hereafter. Minnesota is safe in this regard :)

    - Al
     
  16. Al

    Al Guest

  17. Diablo

    Diablo Guest

    I personally do not agree with that line of thinking. I'm usually intrigued by progressive-in-conventions-face-
    booyah! types of stroke mechanics, but in this case, i do not agree.

    as a drill to teach undulation, perhaps, but it still wouldn't be as good as breaststroke
    arms/dolphin legs.

    its more than possible to employ adequate undulation without lifting the head.

    "Al" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]_s04>, [email protected] says...
    > > "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > > I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my
    > > > stroke didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not
    > > > compressed - the
    movie
    > > > is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
    > > > http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/e/x/exk7/C4Movie/Mothstroke.html
    > >
    > > Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps
    > > that it is important to breathe on every
    stroke
    > > to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat when you do not breathe. You're not
    > > getting the body dolphin action that adds
    considerable
    > > propulsion to the stroke. IMHO, of course. :)
    > >
    > > I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.
    > >
    > > Don
    >
    > Boy, I'm going to sound even sillier than usual disagreeing with Michael Phelps, but breathing
    > every stroke as a matter of course doesn't sound like good advice to me. Or is he just
    > recommending this as a stroke drill to "feel" the dolphin action? At least in my case, raising my
    > head burns up more energy than the benefit of the breath provides - and isn't really required to
    > get the dolphin action going (although I can see how it might for someone just starting out...)
    >
    > Throughout my swimming career, two breaths in a row in fly (or a breath on your first stroke off
    > the wall) was one of the most egregious sins possible.
    >
    > Then again, Phelps' 100 fly is 10 seconds faster than mine ever was :) Does anyone happen to know
    > if his opinion on fly/breathing represents the current thinking in general?
    >
    > Next time I'm in the pool I'll try a few breaths in a row - all my old coaches likely to assault
    > me for this are back in Florida, California or the hereafter. Minnesota is safe in this regard :)
    >
    > - Al
     
  18. Donald Graft

    Donald Graft Guest

    Sorry, I lend more credence to Michael Phelps. Get his
    DVD. He explains it all in there (along with his coach).

    Don

    "diablo" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I personally do not agree with that line of thinking. I'm usually intrigued by progressive-in-conventions-face-
    > booyah! types of stroke mechanics, but in this case, i do not agree.
    >
    > as a drill to teach undulation, perhaps, but it still wouldn't be as good as breaststroke
    > arms/dolphin legs.
    >
    > its more than possible to employ adequate undulation without lifting the head.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Al" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > In article <[email protected]_s04>, [email protected] says...
    > > > "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > > > I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my
    > > > > stroke didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not
    > > > > compressed - the
    > movie
    > > > > is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
    > > > > http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/e/x/exk7/C4Movie/Mothstroke.html
    > > >
    > > > Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps
    > > > that it is important to breathe on every
    > stroke
    > > > to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat when you do not breathe. You're not
    > > > getting the body dolphin action that adds
    > considerable
    > > > propulsion to the stroke. IMHO, of course. :)
    > > >
    > > > I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.
    > > >
    > > > Don
    > >
    > > Boy, I'm going to sound even sillier than usual disagreeing with Michael Phelps, but breathing
    > > every stroke as a matter of course doesn't sound like good advice to me. Or is he just
    > > recommending this as a stroke drill to "feel" the dolphin action? At least in my case, raising
    > > my head burns up more energy than the benefit of the breath provides - and isn't really required
    > > to get the dolphin action going (although I can see how it might for someone just starting
    > > out...)
    > >
    > > Throughout my swimming career, two breaths in a row in fly (or a breath on your first stroke off
    > > the wall) was one of the most egregious sins possible.
    > >
    > > Then again, Phelps' 100 fly is 10 seconds faster than mine ever was :) Does anyone happen to
    > > know if his opinion on fly/breathing represents the current thinking in general?
    > >
    > > Next time I'm in the pool I'll try a few breaths in a row - all my old coaches likely to
    > > assault me for this are back in Florida, California or the hereafter. Minnesota is safe in this
    > > regard :)
    > >
    > > - Al
     
  19. Diablo

    Diablo Guest

    You're perfectly free to listen to who you wish, however i did hear about this before it was
    mentioned there, and i didn't agree with it then either. Phelps isn't the only world class flier in
    the world, and Bob Bowman certainly isn't the only world class coach.

    "Donald Graft" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]_s51...
    > Sorry, I lend more credence to Michael Phelps. Get his
    > DVD. He explains it all in there (along with his coach).
    >
    > Don
    >
    > "diablo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > I personally do not agree with that line of thinking. I'm usually
    intrigued
    > > by progressive-in-conventions-face-booyah! types of stroke mechanics,
    but in
    > > this case, i do not agree.
    > >
    > > as a drill to teach undulation, perhaps, but it still wouldn't be as
    good as
    > > breaststroke arms/dolphin legs.
    > >
    > > its more than possible to employ adequate undulation without lifting the head.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "Al" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > > In article <[email protected]_s04>, [email protected] says...
    > > > > "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > > > I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made
    the
    > > > > > file so tiny that if my stroke didn't look bad to begin with it
    sure
    > > > > > does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not compressed - the
    > > movie
    > > > > > is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
    > > > > >
    http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/e/x/exk7/C4Movie/Mothstroke.html
    > > > >
    > > > > Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps
    > > > > that it is important to breathe on every
    > > stroke
    > > > > to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat when you do
    not
    > > > > breathe. You're not getting the body dolphin action that adds
    > > considerable
    > > > > propulsion to the stroke. IMHO, of course. :)
    > > > >
    > > > > I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.
    > > > >
    > > > > Don
    > > >
    > > > Boy, I'm going to sound even sillier than usual disagreeing with
    Michael
    > > > Phelps, but breathing every stroke as a matter of course doesn't sound like good advice to me.
    > > > Or is he just recommending this as a stroke drill to "feel" the dolphin action? At least in my
    > > > case, raising my head burns up more energy than the benefit of the breath provides -
    and
    > > > isn't really required to get the dolphin action going (although I can see how it might for
    > > > someone just starting out...)
    > > >
    > > > Throughout my swimming career, two breaths in a row in fly (or a
    breath
    > > > on your first stroke off the wall) was one of the most egregious sins possible.
    > > >
    > > > Then again, Phelps' 100 fly is 10 seconds faster than mine ever was
    :)
    > > > Does anyone happen to know if his opinion on fly/breathing represents the current thinking in
    > > > general?
    > > >
    > > > Next time I'm in the pool I'll try a few breaths in a row - all my old coaches likely to
    > > > assault me for this are back in Florida, California
    or
    > > > the hereafter. Minnesota is safe in this regard :)
    > > >
    > > > - Al
    > >
    >
     
  20. Rtk

    Rtk Guest

    I tried breathing more often today and had a spaz attack with each breath until I found myself doing
    vertical butterfly. It wasn't faster, at least not in the direction I wanted. I do have a kick in
    spite of avoiding breathing. The fish I have in 5 tanks and 2 ponds all undulate like crazy without
    coming up for breath; why can't I? I don't think it's a gill issue. However, I will keep trying and
    I'm grateful for your suggestion.

    rtk

    Donald Graft wrote:

    > "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my
    >>stroke didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not
    >>compressed - the movie is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
    >>http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/e/x/exk7/C4Movie/Mothstroke.html
    >
    >
    > Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps that
    > it is important to breathe on every stroke to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat
    > when you do not breathe. You're not getting the body dolphin action that adds considerable
    > propulsion to the stroke. IMHO, of course. :)
    >
    > I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.
    >
    > Don
     
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