What's up with the butterfly?

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Zorak, Feb 13, 2004.

  1. Diablo

    Diablo Guest

    just a quick suggestion Ruth, (i can't get your movie to play unfortunately), however, try what you
    tried today, but use a pull buoy. i'm guessing that while this won't eliminate all of the problems,
    it will isolate whether or not some of your trouble is due to dropped hips.

    steve

    "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I tried breathing more often today and had a spaz attack with each breath until I found myself
    > doing vertical butterfly. It wasn't faster, at least not in the direction I wanted. I do have a
    > kick in spite of avoiding breathing. The fish I have in 5 tanks and 2 ponds all undulate like
    > crazy without coming up for breath; why can't I? I don't think it's a gill issue. However, I will
    > keep trying and I'm grateful for your suggestion.
    >
    > rtk
    >
    >
    > Donald Graft wrote:
    >
    > > "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >>I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my
    > >>stroke didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not
    > >>compressed - the movie is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
    > >>http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/e/x/exk7/C4Movie/Mothstroke.html
    > >
    > >
    > > Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps
    > > that it is important to breathe on every
    stroke
    > > to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat when you do not breathe. You're not
    > > getting the body dolphin action that adds
    considerable
    > > propulsion to the stroke. IMHO, of course. :)
    > >
    > > I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.
    > >
    > > Don
    > >
     


  2. Rtk

    Rtk Guest

    Definitely no dropped hips and a good strong double kick. The pull-buoy slows me down incredibly in
    all strokes. I can kick fly faster than I can pull it, by far. My favorite drill is arms at side,
    kick my head down, kick my head up, with every stroke. I get plenty of undulation then, of course. I
    haven't really found fly a problem; actually it's my best stroke, but I was playing with my new
    camera and having some fun with the little movie thing it can do and was happy to have any
    suggestions. I wish I could make the movie easily available with some technique that I haven't
    figured out yet. Maybe it's the reluctance for Macs to talk to PCs.

    Ruth

    diablo wrote:

    > just a quick suggestion Ruth, (i can't get your movie to play unfortunately), however, try what
    > you tried today, but use a pull buoy. i'm guessing that while this won't eliminate all of the
    > problems, it will isolate whether or not some of your trouble is due to dropped hips.
     
  3. Al

    Al Guest

    In article <[email protected]_s51>, [email protected] says...
    > Sorry, I lend more credence to Michael Phelps. Get his
    > DVD. He explains it all in there (along with his coach).
    >
    > Don
    >

    What? You would take the word of the best flyer that ever lived and his coach over a burnt out Div
    III/masters swimmer? :) I will check out the video because I'm dying to hear the rationale. If what
    they have to say proves their point, then so be it - but to heed their advice on swimming ability
    alone can be dangerous - e.g., some of you might have remembered some of Spitz's swimming
    commentaries...

    - Al
     
  4. Diablo

    Diablo Guest

    well, i never meant to pull the fly, (i wouldn't wish that on anyone), simply try swimming it with
    the extra buoyancy around the hips. Considering you say you have a strong kick, and that fly is
    your best stroke (therefore i'm assuming its not weak), i don't know how you ended up
    struggling...anywho...thats always the first diagnostic drill i try with struggling fliers..that
    and zoomers.

    my only suggestion would be to try breathing a little earlier in the stroke, (initiating as the
    hands pass directly under the body and start moving back and out), and orienting the head to look
    down, as opposed to forward.

    as for the Mac problem...yuk. i'm sure someone out there knows about it.

    "rtk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Definitely no dropped hips and a good strong double kick. The pull-buoy slows me down incredibly
    > in all strokes. I can kick fly faster than I can pull it, by far. My favorite drill is arms at
    > side, kick my head down, kick my head up, with every stroke. I get plenty of undulation then, of
    > course. I haven't really found fly a problem; actually it's my best stroke, but I was playing with
    > my new camera and having some fun with the little movie thing it can do and was happy to have any
    > suggestions. I wish I could make the movie easily available with some technique that I haven't
    > figured out yet. Maybe it's the reluctance for Macs to talk to PCs.
    >
    > Ruth
    >
    > diablo wrote:
    >
    > > just a quick suggestion Ruth, (i can't get your movie to play unfortunately), however, try what
    > > you tried today, but use a pull buoy.
    i'm
    > > guessing that while this won't eliminate all of the problems, it will isolate whether or not
    > > some of your trouble is due to dropped hips.
     
  5. Donald Graft

    Donald Graft Guest

    "diablo" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:p[email protected]...
    > You're perfectly free to listen to who you wish, however i did hear about this before it was
    > mentioned there, and i didn't agree with it then either. Phelps isn't the only world class flier
    > in the world, and Bob Bowman certainly isn't the only world class coach.

    The context was commenting on rtk's video. Given the apparent lack of proper undulation there, I
    suggested that she breathe every stroke to develop the proper technique. Later, she might try
    different breathing patterns.

    There's a common psychological defense many flyers adopt: trying to avoid breathing! But I feel that
    if one cannot comfortably swim fly while breathing every stroke, then one has not mastered the
    mechanics of the stroke.

    Don
     
  6. 4precious

    4precious Guest

    I wanted to point out the obvious.

    Swimming Butterfly is extremely difficult, even for elite swimmers. I keep trying to swim it better
    and it has been a lot of fun.

    Recently, Bob Bowen, Phelps' coach, had "tip of the week" on usa-swimming website. He said with
    respect to butterly, that Michael never does intervals of butterfly longer than 100 meters. And he
    often does much smaller ones of 75, 50, and even 25. The reason is that it is so difficult to swim
    butterfly well, that his coach keeps the interval relatively short so that a maximum effort can be
    put forth. So for recreation swimmers, I would say getting strong enough to swim 50 yards of good
    butterfly is probably what we should be realistically shooting for. There are folks in my Masters
    group who can go farther, but I see some of the strangest pulls underwater during butterly. Stuff
    that starts as breast stroke, then eventually goes straight down ... all sorts of stuff that looks a
    lot different than what the elites are doing on video.

    Another anectode - Larry pointed out a famous butterfly race at the trials a number of years ago.
    One poor fellow hammered beautifully for about 90 meters and then utterly died. Had Olympic team
    within his grasp, but in the last ten meters could not get his arms to even clear the water, much
    like us rec swimmers. It was like watching Tiger Woods duff an iron shot 15 feet.

    So it is a tough stroke. My advice is try to swim 25 yards well. I've also recently started doing
    some weight work: squats and ab work help get that core body strong for the stroke. Also, to borrow
    a line from Laughlin, think about anchoring your hands and forearms in the water and then using your
    body undulation to drive past them. Pulling through the water is just too hard. There's no where to
    hide in butterly like there is in freestyle. Freestyle is only one arm at a time with body rotation
    to assist.

    Eric
     
  7. F.J.

    F.J. Guest

    I have watched that DVD many times and still cannot really comprehend their rationale :). Seeing
    several times of Phelps' fly swim in person, I knew he did breath every stroke in meets with the
    exception of first stroke after each turn. The reasoning provided by Bowman is that Phelps' hip
    sinks on non-breathing stokes. It is a weird argument since breathing means head lifting, head
    lifting means hip sinking for most people.

    Al <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]_s51>, [email protected] says...
    > > Sorry, I lend more credence to Michael Phelps. Get his
    > > DVD. He explains it all in there (along with his coach).
    > >
    > > Don
    > >
    >
    > What? You would take the word of the best flyer that ever lived and his coach over a burnt out Div
    > III/masters swimmer? :) I will check out the video because I'm dying to hear the rationale. If
    > what they have to say proves their point, then so be it - but to heed their advice on swimming
    > ability alone can be dangerous - e.g., some of you might have remembered some of Spitz's swimming
    > commentaries...
    >
    > - Al
     
  8. M. W. Smith

    M. W. Smith Guest

    On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:08:24 GMT, Donald Graft <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "diablo" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:p[email protected]...
    >> You're perfectly free to listen to who you wish, however i did hear about this before it was
    >> mentioned there, and i didn't agree with it then either. Phelps isn't the only world class flier
    >> in the world, and Bob Bowman certainly isn't the only world class coach.
    >
    > The context was commenting on rtk's video. Given the apparent lack of proper undulation there, I
    > suggested that she breathe every stroke to develop the proper technique. Later, she might try
    > different breathing patterns.

    The only way I can do it at all, or at least something that passes the stroke judge's test as
    butterfly, is to breath every stroke.

    > There's a common psychological defense many flyers adopt: trying to avoid breathing! But I feel
    > that if one cannot comfortably swim fly while breathing every stroke, then one has not mastered
    > the mechanics of the stroke.

    I can't swim it comfortably *without* breathing every stroke.

    martin

    --
    If you are a US citizen, please use your constitutional right to vote, because we badly need a new
    president.
     
  9. Al

    Al Guest

    In article <[email protected]_s51>, [email protected] says...
    > "diablo" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:p[email protected]...
    > > You're perfectly free to listen to who you wish, however i did hear about this before it was
    > > mentioned there, and i didn't agree with it then either. Phelps isn't the only world class flier
    > > in the world, and Bob Bowman certainly isn't the only world class coach.
    >
    > The context was commenting on rtk's video. Given the apparent lack of proper undulation there, I
    > suggested that she breathe every stroke to develop the proper technique. Later, she might try
    > different breathing patterns.

    In that context breathing every stroke to develop the undulation seems worth a try, although doing
    so isn't *necessary* to get the hang of the stroke. Having said that, establishing the ability to
    breath every stroke is just another tool in one's arsenal I suppose. In my case my stroke all but
    falls apart if I try to breath every stroke.

    > There's a common psychological defense many flyers adopt: trying to avoid breathing! But I feel
    > that if one cannot comfortably swim fly while breathing every stroke, then one has not mastered
    > the mechanics of the stroke.

    That's an interesting thesis, although it flies in the face of everything I have been taught and
    experienced myself - then again, I am a pretty flat flyer (with plenty of room for improvement.) But
    for me it wouldn't feel any more normal than breathing every stroke in freestyle. I will check out
    the Phelps video, though.

    - Al
     
  10. Diablo

    Diablo Guest

    This is something i'm going to think about, and will go so far as to run a few speed tests in the
    diving well soon. The obvious benefit is that the restriction of breathing decreases comfort. if
    they can go just as fast breathing every stroke, rather than bi-cycle breathing, i have no
    problem doing it.

    "m. w. smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:08:24 GMT, Donald Graft <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > "diablo" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:p[email protected]...
    > >> You're perfectly free to listen to who you wish, however i did hear about this before it was
    > >> mentioned there, and i didn't agree with it then either. Phelps isn't the only world class
    > >> flier in the world, and Bob Bowman certainly isn't the only world class coach.
    > >
    > > The context was commenting on rtk's video. Given the apparent lack of proper undulation there, I
    > > suggested that she breathe every stroke to develop the proper technique. Later, she might try
    > > different
    breathing
    > > patterns.
    >
    > The only way I can do it at all, or at least something that passes the stroke judge's test as
    > butterfly, is to breath every stroke.
    >
    > > There's a common psychological defense many flyers adopt: trying to avoid breathing! But I feel
    > > that if one cannot comfortably swim fly
    while
    > > breathing every stroke, then one has not mastered the mechanics of the stroke.
    >
    > I can't swim it comfortably *without* breathing every stroke.
    >
    > martin
    >
    > --
    > If you are a US citizen, please use your constitutional right to vote, because we badly need a new
    > president.
     
  11. M. W. Smith

    M. W. Smith Guest

    On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:14:35 GMT, diablo <[email protected]> wrote:

    > This is something i'm going to think about, and will go so far as to run a few speed tests in the
    > diving well soon. The obvious benefit is that the restriction of breathing decreases comfort. if
    > they can go just as fast breathing every stroke, rather than bi-cycle breathing, i have no problem
    > doing it.

    I expect those that have a good undulation, and therefore a good kick, will be slower breathing
    every stroke. Probably not much slower.

    > "m. w. smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...
    >> On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:08:24 GMT, Donald Graft <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> > "diablo" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:p[email protected]...
    >> >> You're perfectly free to listen to who you wish, however i did hear about this before it was
    >> >> mentioned there, and i didn't agree with it then either. Phelps isn't the only world class
    >> >> flier in the world, and Bob Bowman certainly isn't the only world class coach.
    >> >
    >> > The context was commenting on rtk's video. Given the apparent lack of proper undulation there,
    >> > I suggested that she breathe every stroke to develop the proper technique. Later, she might try
    >> > different
    > breathing
    >> > patterns.
    >>
    >> The only way I can do it at all, or at least something that passes the stroke judge's test as
    >> butterfly, is to breath every stroke.
    >>
    >> > There's a common psychological defense many flyers adopt: trying to avoid breathing! But I feel
    >> > that if one cannot comfortably swim fly
    > while
    >> > breathing every stroke, then one has not mastered the mechanics of the stroke.
    >>
    >> I can't swim it comfortably *without* breathing every stroke.
    >>
    >> martin
    >>
    >> --
    >> If you are a US citizen, please use your constitutional right to vote, because we badly need a
    >> new president.
    >
    >

    --
    If you are a US citizen, please use your constitutional right to vote, because we badly need a new
    president.
     
  12. Diablo

    Diablo Guest

    i'm guessing what it will come down to is whether the lower hips and higher shoulders, (therefore
    more time on the recovery from hand exit to hand entry) is compensated for by the higher potential
    energy (on the dive of the undulation). If that evens itself out, then certainly you will see even
    speed, therefore breathing every stroke is beneficial.

    My concern is for the 200 flyer who can't keep their hips up when they breathe on the back end.
    Maybe their usual pattern of controlling their breath, then abandoning the pattern on the back when
    they're stressed should be reversed? interesting point to have a crack at.

    "m. w. smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:14:35 GMT, diablo <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > This is something i'm going to think about, and will go so far as to run a few speed tests in
    > > the diving well soon. The obvious benefit is that the restriction of breathing decreases
    > > comfort. if they can go just as fast breathing every stroke, rather than bi-cycle breathing, i
    > > have no
    problem
    > > doing it.
    >
    > I expect those that have a good undulation, and therefore a good kick, will be slower breathing
    > every stroke. Probably not much slower.
    >
    > > "m. w. smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...
    > >> On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:08:24 GMT, Donald Graft <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > "diablo" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:p[email protected]...
    > >> >> You're perfectly free to listen to who you wish, however i did hear about this before it was
    > >> >> mentioned there, and i didn't agree with it then either. Phelps isn't the only world class
    > >> >> flier in the world, and Bob Bowman certainly isn't the only world class coach.
    > >> >
    > >> > The context was commenting on rtk's video. Given the apparent lack of proper undulation
    > >> > there, I suggested that she breathe every stroke to develop the proper technique. Later, she
    > >> > might try different
    > > breathing
    > >> > patterns.
    > >>
    > >> The only way I can do it at all, or at least something that passes the stroke judge's test as
    > >> butterfly, is to breath every stroke.
    > >>
    > >> > There's a common psychological defense many flyers adopt: trying to avoid breathing! But I
    > >> > feel that if one cannot comfortably swim fly
    > > while
    > >> > breathing every stroke, then one has not mastered the mechanics of
    the
    > >> > stroke.
    > >>
    > >> I can't swim it comfortably *without* breathing every stroke.
    > >>
    > >> martin
    > >>
    > >> --
    > >> If you are a US citizen, please use your constitutional right to vote, because we badly need a
    > >> new president.
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > If you are a US citizen, please use your constitutional right to vote, because we badly need a new
    > president.
     
  13. Andres Muro

    Andres Muro Guest

    For what its worth, probably nothing, I breathe with every stroke. Today, follwing the discussion, I
    tried to breathe every other stroke. Ended way more tired. Also, when I swim without coming out to
    breathe, I need to keep the neck bend down to keep my head underwater. I know that flyers do this.
    However, to me, it feels very weird and makes me dizzy. Most fly races are sprints, and you wouldn't
    care about getting dizzier if your goal is to just finish faster. However, I try to use fly to get
    more strenght for my long distance swimming.

    Andres

    Mike Edey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:37:58 -0600, Al wrote:
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]_s51>, [email protected] says...
    > >> Sorry, I lend more credence to Michael Phelps. Get his DVD. He explains it all in there (along
    > >> with his coach).
    > >>
    > >> Don
    > >>
    > >>
    > > What? You would take the word of the best flyer that ever lived and his coach over a burnt out
    > > Div III/masters swimmer? :) I will check out the video because I'm dying to hear the rationale.
    > > If what they have to say proves their point, then so be it - but to heed their advice on
    > > swimming ability alone can be dangerous - e.g., some of you might have remembered some of
    > > Spitz's swimming commentaries...
    > >
    > > - Al
    >
    > In the same way that great swimmers don't nec make great coaches. Or even half decent ones for
    > that matter. That being said I think there's a place, esp at the end of a race, where extra
    > breathing might help force a rhythm that a tired midsection may no longer be able to maintain. I'm
    > not sure it's something you'd like to encourage as a matter of course. As always I could be, and
    > will prob be proven, wrong but I don't think that the possibility is suffecient reason to
    > disregard my intuitive findings in favour of those made by someone who is clearly not average.
    >
    > --Mike
     
  14. Donald Graft

    Donald Graft Guest

    "diablo" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > my only suggestion would be to try breathing a little earlier in the stroke, (initiating as the
    > hands pass directly under the body and start moving back and out), and orienting the head to look
    > down, as opposed to forward.

    That's great advice, diablo! Late breathing really screws things up in fly.

    One thing that helped me was to see that the arms remain near the surface and parallel after entry
    while the chest and head push down in the water. Then as the pull is made this elastic storage of
    energy is released as the head and chest go up again. It's hard to explain, but easy to see in the
    Phelps DVD. This principle of elastic storage and release arises quite often in swimming technique.

    Hey Ruth! Thanks for triggering this interesting thread.

    Don
     
  15. Al

    Al Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Definitely no dropped hips and a good strong double kick. The pull-buoy slows me down incredibly
    > in all strokes. I can kick fly faster than I can pull it, by far. My favorite drill is arms at
    > side, kick my head down, kick my head up, with every stroke. I get plenty of undulation then, of
    > course. I haven't really found fly a problem; actually it's my best stroke, but I was playing with
    > my new camera and having some fun with the little movie thing it can do and was happy to have any
    > suggestions. I wish I could make the movie easily available with some technique that I haven't
    > figured out yet. Maybe it's the reluctance for Macs to talk to PCs.
    >

    Ruth, I can view your most recent video attempt with no problem on my Mac and my PC. One wild
    suggestion would be for folks to try getting to it at an off hour - maybe it's a network bandwidth
    issue at busier times of day that is keeping them from seeing it.

    I think your fly is exceptional for person who picked it up later in life!

    My fly, by the way, is just the opposite. My kick never really arrived, so I can pull fly with a
    pull buoy until the cows come home (with more endurance than without a pullboy and only a modest
    speed difference.) I was actually able to hang with our Olympic Trials group for the rare fly pull
    set even though I couldn't begin to swim with them when the pull buoys came off. So although it
    was my most successful stroke, I was always somewhat of a "counterfeit" flyer. To a large extent
    this probably accounts for my inability to breath every stroke. Happily, I think my condition is
    pretty rare :).

    - Al
     
  16. Al

    Al Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:13:30 -0800, 4precious wrote:
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > > Another anectode - Larry pointed out a famous butterfly race at the trials a number of years
    > > ago. One poor fellow hammered beautifully for about 90 meters and then utterly died. Had Olympic
    > > team within his grasp, but in the last ten meters could not get his arms to even clear the
    > > water, much like us rec swimmers. It was like watching Tiger Woods duff an iron shot 15 feet.
    >
    > The fellow was Byron Davis who, in his attempt to become the first African American named to the
    > American Olympic swimming team split a world best
    > (24.05 IIRC) at the 50. I rather remember because the Colorado resident team came to our winter
    > nationals just a few months before (Nov '95) where I had the dubious honour of having my ass
    > handed to me by both Myden & Davis after splitting 25.3 at the 50 (scm) and breaking a finger
    > on the 75 wall. Not that I had much expectation of beating either one, it was my first
    > nationals, but I had rather hoped to swim a little faster then 57.7. Anyway a few months later
    > when video of the American trials had circulated a bit I got stuck with 'Byron' as a nickname
    > for a bit. I felt rather honoured. I wish I'd had the courage to tell him so when we raced the
    > 100 at in Vancouver 3 years later.
    >
    > Anyway, back to the point, I'd say it was more like watching Tiger nail a 400yd drive, and
    > dislocate his shoulders or something and be unable to complete a 1' putt for eagle.

    Hey, I'll take the 57.7 scm time any day :) Nice story! Reminds me of when my cap came down over my
    face and hinged securely under my chin in the final 25 and I ended up touching with my head.
    Luckily, due mostly to oxygen deprivation, I was practically vertical at that point so the impact
    was of little consequence. Al
     
  17. 4precious

    4precious Guest

    rtk <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > With much trepidation, but under the good advice of Al, I have dared to upload the following mini-
    > movie of my understanding of butterfly.
    >
    > http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/e/x/exk7/C4Movie/Mothstroke.html
    >
    > I welcome criticism greedily.
    >
    > Ruth Kazez

    Overall looks great. I can't believe you can take so many strokes without breathing. I would
    be hypoxic.

    My only comment on your stroke is that you seem to breath a bit early. Your face is out of the water
    while hands are still deep. Looks a bit quicker than what the elites are doing.

    I also wanted to make another comment about swimming butterfly that I learned a while ago.

    I started a post on butterly swimmer a while back discussing how many
    I.M. swimmers such as Tom Dolan and even the elite stroke guys such as Tom Malchow will often
    swim the stroke with only one dolphin kick. They omit the kick that occurs while the face
    pops out of the water to breath, but they keep the kick that gets the hips back to the
    suface and the head back down in the water. Clearly they do this to conserve some energy.
    It's not a bad way to swim fly. You can look at various video on Donald Graft's site to look
    at the stroke swum this way.

    The key thing about it in this form is that even though they omit a dolphin kick, their hips and
    feet are nearly at the surface of the water during their pull.

    THIS IS AN EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE WAY TO GAUGE HOW WELL YOUR ARMS ARE DOING IN THE STROKE

    Because if you are pushing down too much on the water while your arms are in front of your head, it
    will be impossible to keep hips/heels at the surface due to "Miller Torque". So it's a sure fire way
    to identify a stroke flaw. It forces you to slice forearms inward in a sculling fashion, and not do
    any downward pushing on the water until your hands are much closer to your body.

    And I think that's a major reason why the stroke can be so tiring. Namely, people get that "Butterly
    Wedge" thing going. Head up, hips and legs down. It's very difficult to pull yourself through the
    water this way. Now the elites DO get that look in the water when they use both dolphin kicks in the
    stroke. But they clearly have a great deal of fore aft balance since they can stay at the surface
    even omitting the one kick as described above.

    So I encourage people to try it. If your hips and legs are sinking, slice your hands towards your
    body by bending at the elbows. Don't push down or back or you will quickly submerge the lower half
    of your body. Later, when you reintroduce the kick, it's apparent how much easier it is to swim
    the stroke.

    Eric
     
  18. Jill

    Jill Guest

    Al <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > What? You would take the word of the best flyer that ever lived and his coach over a burnt out Div
    > III/masters swimmer? :) I will check out the video because I'm dying to hear the rationale. If
    > what they have to say proves their point, then so be it - but to heed their advice on swimming
    > ability alone can be dangerous - e.g., some of you might have remembered some of Spitz's swimming
    > commentaries...

    Though North Baltimore Aquatic Club is more than a one horse stable. They had two swimmers not named
    Phelps win their respective 400M IMs at US nationals this week (Kevin Clements and Katie Hoff) and a
    number more of good young swimmers in the pipeline.
     
  19. Diablo

    Diablo Guest

    Eric,

    an interesting point that i've recently been forced to put thought into.

    generally i adopt the approch of emphasis on each of the kicks depending on what you're doing. The
    second kick, i have the swimmer really work in sprint fly, and for 200 and training fly, we weaken
    that kick down, and emphasize the first.

    but yes, interesting.

    "4precious" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > rtk <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > With much trepidation, but under the good advice of Al, I have dared to upload the following mini-
    > > movie of my understanding of butterfly.
    > >
    > > http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/e/x/exk7/C4Movie/Mothstroke.html
    > >
    > > I welcome criticism greedily.
    > >
    > > Ruth Kazez
    >
    > Overall looks great. I can't believe you can take so many strokes without breathing. I would be
    > hypoxic.
    >
    > My only comment on your stroke is that you seem to breath a bit early. Your face is out of the
    > water while hands are still deep. Looks a bit quicker than what the elites are doing.
    >
    > I also wanted to make another comment about swimming butterfly that I learned a while ago.
    >
    > I started a post on butterly swimmer a while back discussing how many
    > I.M. swimmers such as Tom Dolan and even the elite stroke guys such as Tom Malchow will often swim
    > the stroke with only one dolphin kick. They omit the kick that occurs while the face pops out
    > of the water to breath, but they keep the kick that gets the hips back to the suface and the
    > head back down in the water. Clearly they do this to conserve some energy. It's not a bad way
    > to swim fly. You can look at various video on Donald Graft's site to look at the stroke swum
    > this way.
    >
    > The key thing about it in this form is that even though they omit a dolphin kick, their hips and
    > feet are nearly at the surface of the water during their pull.
    >
    > THIS IS AN EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE WAY TO GAUGE HOW WELL YOUR ARMS ARE DOING IN THE STROKE
    >
    > Because if you are pushing down too much on the water while your arms are in front of your head,
    > it will be impossible to keep hips/heels at the surface due to "Miller Torque". So it's a sure
    > fire way to identify a stroke flaw. It forces you to slice forearms inward in a sculling fashion,
    > and not do any downward pushing on the water until your hands are much closer to your body.
    >
    > And I think that's a major reason why the stroke can be so tiring. Namely, people get that
    > "Butterly Wedge" thing going. Head up, hips and legs down. It's very difficult to pull yourself
    > through the water this way. Now the elites DO get that look in the water when they use both
    > dolphin kicks in the stroke. But they clearly have a great deal of fore aft balance since they can
    > stay at the surface even omitting the one kick as described above.
    >
    > So I encourage people to try it. If your hips and legs are sinking, slice your hands towards your
    > body by bending at the elbows. Don't push down or back or you will quickly submerge the lower half
    > of your body. Later, when you reintroduce the kick, it's apparent how much easier it is to swim
    > the stroke.
    >
    > Eric
     
  20. Diablo

    Diablo Guest

    Katie Hoff is just out of this world. Phelps is impressive, but Hoff is amazing for her age.

    "Jill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Al <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > What? You would take the word of the best flyer that ever lived and his coach over a burnt out
    > > Div III/masters swimmer? :) I will check out the video because I'm dying to hear the rationale.
    > > If what they have to say proves their point, then so be it - but to heed their advice on
    > > swimming ability alone can be dangerous - e.g., some of you might have remembered some of
    > > Spitz's swimming commentaries...
    >
    > Though North Baltimore Aquatic Club is more than a one horse stable. They had two swimmers not
    > named Phelps win their respective 400M IMs at US nationals this week (Kevin Clements and Katie
    > Hoff) and a number more of good young swimmers in the pipeline.
     
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