wheel aerodynamics, was: mavic ksyrium elite vs velocity spartacus pro



Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Dmitri Colebatc

Guest
(continued as a new thread)

"dianne_1234" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Remember the biggie, aerodynamics. Low aero drag beats low weight in almost any reasonable
> scenario, most crits included.

Ok, so we've pretty well beaten the weight issue to death, with the conclusion of it really doesn't
matter that much - a 500g saving is a 500g saving, but the fact that its on the wheels instead of
the frame (or drink bottle, or pump, or me) doesn't make any real difference.

So, the remaining motivation to go and spend some of my beloved savings on a new set of wheels is
down to aerodynamics? Without wanting to seem unsatisfied with the group's response to my queries so
far (thanks - they've been great), anyone want to tell me if this really is a biggie?

So far all the previous thread has done is made me wonder if there really is any benefit of a new
fancy set of wheels.

thanks dim
 
"Dmitri Colebatch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> (continued as a new thread)
>
> "dianne_1234" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Remember the biggie, aerodynamics. Low aero drag beats low weight in almost any reasonable
> > scenario, most crits included.
>
> Ok, so we've pretty well beaten the weight issue to death, with the conclusion of it really
> doesn't matter that much - a 500g saving is a 500g saving, but the fact that its on the wheels
> instead of the frame (or drink bottle, or pump, or me) doesn't make any real difference.
>
> So, the remaining motivation to go and spend some of my beloved savings on
a
> new set of wheels is down to aerodynamics? Without wanting to seem unsatisfied with the group's
> response to my queries so far (thanks -
they've
> been great), anyone want to tell me if this really is a biggie?
>
> So far all the previous thread has done is made me wonder if there really
is
> any benefit of a new fancy set of wheels.
>
> thanks dim
>
>
The benefit seems to be primarily to the wheel manufacturers.
 
> Remember the biggie, aerodynamics. Low aero drag beats low weight in
> > almost any reasonable scenario, most crits included.
>
> Ok, so we've pretty well beaten the weight issue to death, with the conclusion of it really
> doesn't matter that much - a 500g saving is a 500g saving, but the fact that its on the wheels
> instead of the frame (or drink bottle, or pump, or me) doesn't make any real difference.
>
> So, the remaining motivation to go and spend some of my beloved savings on
a
> new set of wheels is down to aerodynamics? Without wanting to seem unsatisfied with the group's
> response to my queries so far (thanks -
they've
> been great), anyone want to tell me if this really is a biggie?
>
> So far all the previous thread has done is made me wonder if there really
is
> any benefit of a new fancy set of wheels.
>
> thanks dim
> >

Most of the guys espousing the fact that wheels don't make a difference probably haven't ridden them
enough to be able to tell. OR they just can't tell even if they have ridden them.

I'm one of those people JUST barely strong enough to hang with the local fast guys. When I'm riding
my "normal" wheels, it is a struggle. When I'm riding my Cosmics, 404s, or my Ritchey Pro wheels,
its easier to hang on. I don't know which of my wheelsets is fastest. Its probably the Cosmics due
to a combination of rim and low spoke count.

I can tell the difference between my Cosmics and my Ritchey wheels when it comes to those
accelerations that the pack goes through. The Cosmics don't spin up nearly as fast, but they're
better at keeping that speed on the top end. I just got my 404 road wheels so can't compare
directly. I've raced my track 404s for a season and a half and I can tell you for certain that the
404 build into a faster wheel than the 303.

I'm one of those people that think that you have to have a screwdriver AND a hammer. You wouldn't go
pounding on a screw with a hammer, would you? Ever tried screwing in a nail? There's wheels for
different conditions, races. From superlight tubular "climbing" wheels (the word climbing is in
quotes 'cause no matter how light my wheels are, I can't climb!) to heavy-ish aero wheels.

I didn't follow the complete thread you referenced, but I don't think that the two wheel choices you
have listed in the header are particularly aero.

If you want a boutique wheelset to ride around on, the pundits are usually correct. Waste o'
money. A 32 hole OP/Aerohead wheel is going to be a better bet. If you have the $$ and it makes
you want to ride more, well, then that's another story. Go for it. As a cure-all to make you ride
faster, weeellllll (scratching head) I dunno. Usually the only thing that lets you ride faster is
to ride more.

If you have a bud that'll lend you his aero wheels try them out for yourself. If you decide that you
can't feel the difference, don't buy them. If they help. Then that's when the cost/benefit ratio
comes in...

Its always easier to lose weight on your body than it is your bike.

Let's see, what other pithy words of wisdom can we come up with??

Mike
 
"Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message news:<76%Mb.8135$XD5.3451@fed1read06>...
> > Remember the biggie, aerodynamics. Low aero drag beats low weight in
> > > almost any reasonable scenario, most crits included.
> >
> > Ok, so we've pretty well beaten the weight issue to death, with the conclusion of it really
> > doesn't matter that much - a 500g saving is a 500g saving, but the fact that its on the wheels
> > instead of the frame (or drink bottle, or pump, or me) doesn't make any real difference.
> >
> > So, the remaining motivation to go and spend some of my beloved savings on
> a
> > new set of wheels is down to aerodynamics? Without wanting to seem unsatisfied with the group's
> > response to my queries so far (thanks -
> they've
> > been great), anyone want to tell me if this really is a biggie?
> >
> > So far all the previous thread has done is made me wonder if there really
> is
> > any benefit of a new fancy set of wheels.
> >
> > thanks dim
> > >
>
[snip]
>
> I can tell the difference between my Cosmics and my Ritchey wheels when it comes to those
> accelerations that the pack goes through. The Cosmics don't spin up nearly as fast, but they're
> better at keeping that speed on the top end.

[snip]

> Mike

Dear Mike,

Do you happen to know the weight and spoke count difference between your Cosmic and Ritchey
wheelsets?

Thanks,

Carl Fogel
 
Mike S. wrote:
> Most of the guys espousing the fact that wheels don't make a difference probably haven't ridden
> them enough to be able to tell. OR they just can't tell even if they have ridden them.
>
> I'm one of those people JUST barely strong enough to hang with the local fast guys. When I'm
> riding my "normal" wheels, it is a struggle. When I'm riding my Cosmics, 404s, or my Ritchey Pro
> wheels, its easier to hang on.

Same tires, tubes, inflation pressure? THOSE differences are easy to feel.

Mark Janeba
 
Dmitri Colebatch wrote:
> "dianne_1234" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Remember the biggie, aerodynamics. Low aero drag beats low weight in almost any reasonable
>>scenario, most crits included.
>
> So, the remaining motivation to go and spend some of my beloved savings on a new set of wheels is
> down to aerodynamics? Without wanting to seem unsatisfied with the group's response to my queries
> so far (thanks - they've been great), anyone want to tell me if this really is a biggie?

Google this newsgroup for old stuff from Kraig Willett. He ran some interesting models that showed
the difference between aero and non-aero wheels in a time trial. He even attempted to optimize the
aero benefit/cost ratio of a set of wheels, but there were a lot of assumptions in that analysis.

If you want to run some models yourself, get some aerodynamics data on different wheels (I think
the HED site has some data; Kraig's posts will include a link) and take that to the
analyticcycling.com website.

The upshot, as I recall, is that wheels make a miniscule difference if you're sitting in a pack. On
a breakaway, sprint, or time trial, the differences may be worthwhile, depending on your definition
of worthwhile. You won't make up a full bike length in a sprint, but you may gain a few inches. You
won't gain 5 minutes in a 40k TT, but you might gain a handful of seconds.

Dave dvt at psu dot edu
 
"Mark Janeba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:nz5Nb.57672$na.39146@attbi_s04...
> Mike S. wrote:
> > Most of the guys espousing the fact that wheels don't make a difference probably haven't ridden
> > them enough to be able to tell. OR they just
can't
> > tell even if they have ridden them.
> >
> > I'm one of those people JUST barely strong enough to hang with the local fast guys. When I'm
> > riding my "normal" wheels, it is a struggle. When
I'm
> > riding my Cosmics, 404s, or my Ritchey Pro wheels, its easier to hang
on.
>
> Same tires, tubes, inflation pressure? THOSE differences are easy to
feel.
>
> Mark Janeba

And same friction of the hubs? That's not easy to feel, but may affect to the total resistance of
the wheels significantly as well.

Antti
 
dim-<< spend some of my beloved savings on a new set of wheels is down to aerodynamics? >><BR><BR>

Aerodynamics can be a small biggie, in certain conditions, with certain drawbacks.

Most aero rims are pretty heavy if aluminum. If they are light, they are carbon and then expensive.

Wind will push around even a small profile aero rim, like 30mm or larger, so this may be an issue.

Ya can use fewer spokes with heavier aero rims, to a point, and this will make them more aero but
also less reliable. Particularly if you use oval spokes, those not requiring that the hubs be
slotted for fatter bladed spokes.

Most bike changes, whether reducing weight, making more aero or both create small changes in bike
performance, since ya gotta put this thing called a human on it, which is neither light nor aero,
when compared to a bicycle.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
> Most bike changes, whether reducing weight, making more aero or both
create
> small changes in bike performance, since ya gotta put this thing called a
human
> on it, which is neither light nor aero, when compared to a bicycle.

> Peter Chisholm

Ain't THAT the damn truth!

Mike
 
"Carl Fogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:<76%Mb.8135$XD5.3451@fed1read06>...
> > > Remember the biggie, aerodynamics. Low aero drag beats low weight in
> > > > almost any reasonable scenario, most crits included.
> > >
> > > Ok, so we've pretty well beaten the weight issue to death, with the conclusion of it really
> > > doesn't matter that much - a 500g saving is a
500g
> > > saving, but the fact that its on the wheels instead of the frame (or
drink
> > > bottle, or pump, or me) doesn't make any real difference.
> > >
> > > So, the remaining motivation to go and spend some of my beloved
savings on
> > a
> > > new set of wheels is down to aerodynamics? Without wanting to seem unsatisfied with the
> > > group's response to my queries so far (thanks -
> > they've
> > > been great), anyone want to tell me if this really is a biggie?
> > >
> > > So far all the previous thread has done is made me wonder if there
really
> > is
> > > any benefit of a new fancy set of wheels.
> > >
> > > thanks dim
> > > >
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > I can tell the difference between my Cosmics and my Ritchey wheels when
it
> > comes to those accelerations that the pack goes through. The Cosmics
don't
> > spin up nearly as fast, but they're better at keeping that speed on the
top
> > end.
>
> [snip]
>
> > Mike
>
> Dear Mike,
>
> Do you happen to know the weight and spoke count difference between your Cosmic and Ritchey
> wheelsets?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carl Fogel

I don't have a scale, but the Cosmics are definitely heavier in the "hold em both in the air" test.
The Cosmics are 16/16. The Ritcheys are 20/28.

Mike
 
"Antti" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mark Janeba" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:nz5Nb.57672$na.39146@attbi_s04...
> > Mike S. wrote:
> > > Most of the guys espousing the fact that wheels don't make a
difference
> > > probably haven't ridden them enough to be able to tell. OR they just
> can't
> > > tell even if they have ridden them.
> > >
> > > I'm one of those people JUST barely strong enough to hang with the
local
> > > fast guys. When I'm riding my "normal" wheels, it is a struggle.
When
> I'm
> > > riding my Cosmics, 404s, or my Ritchey Pro wheels, its easier to hang
> on.
> >
> > Same tires, tubes, inflation pressure? THOSE differences are easy to
> feel.
> >
> > Mark Janeba
>
> And same friction of the hubs? That's not easy to feel, but may affect to the total resistance of
> the wheels significantly as well.

Not true: aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance are much, much greater than the bearing friction.

Andy Coggan
 
"Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:76%Mb.8135$XD5.3451@fed1read06...

> I'm one of those people JUST barely strong enough to hang with the local fast guys. When I'm
> riding my "normal" wheels, it is a struggle. When
I'm
> riding my Cosmics, 404s, or my Ritchey Pro wheels, its easier to hang on.
I
> don't know which of my wheelsets is fastest. Its probably the Cosmics due to a combination of rim
> and low spoke count.

I'm riding B grade here at the moment, and would like to think that I've still got a bit of fitness
improvement left in me, so am thinking that between that and wheels I could get right up the top of
that, and maybe even have a run in A grade... but I think this is a year or so off...

> tried screwing in a nail? There's wheels for different conditions, races. From superlight tubular
> "climbing" wheels (the word climbing is in quotes 'cause no matter how light my wheels are, I
> can't climb!) to heavy-ish
aero
> wheels.

hmmm... at this stage, I'm definately in the market for _one_ set of wheels, possibly none, but
definately not two (o: whilst what you're saying makes sense, and sounds great, I dont think I'd get
signoff from my fiancee on two sets of wheels (o:

> I didn't follow the complete thread you referenced, but I don't think that the two wheel choices
> you have listed in the header are particularly aero.

I kinda hijacked that thread - the two wheels referenced in the subject weren't my suggestions.

> If you want a boutique wheelset to ride around on, the pundits are usually correct. Waste o'
> money. A 32 hole OP/Aerohead wheel is going to be a better bet.

thats what I'm starting to think.

> If you have the $$ and it makes you want to ride more, well, then that's another story. Go for it.
> As a cure-all to make you ride faster, weeellllll (scratching head) I dunno. Usually the only
> thing that lets you ride faster is to ride more.

hehe... I think thats probably the one statement I've seen in both this thread and the other than no
one will argue with!

> If you have a bud that'll lend you his aero wheels try them out for yourself. If you decide that
> you can't feel the difference, don't buy
them.
> If they help. Then that's when the cost/benefit ratio comes in...

why I didn't think of that I dont know.... not aero, but I do have a mate wtih a set of ksyriums, I
reckon he'd let me have a ride... that should answer a lot of these questions.

> Its always easier to lose weight on your body than it is your bike.

yep - sounds good in theory (o: I definately agree with you. The reason weight had been discussed so
much is that I'd thought because wheels were turning, they would be much more weight critical -
refer to the other thread for a (lengthy) discussion of this.

thanks dim
 
"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 08:09:08 +1100, Dmitri Colebatch wrote:
>
> > So far all the previous thread has done is made me wonder if there
really is
> > any benefit of a new fancy set of wheels.
>
> And that is the real question. Unless the wheels you have now have steel rims, or are damaged in
> some way, I see no reason to replace them.

David,

Thanks - you're spot on, that is the real question. They're mavic cxp21 - which I _think_ (by
looking at them) are aluminium, but I really have no idea. They dont see to get a mention on Mavic's
site (http://www.mavic.com/servlet/srt/mavic/road-prod?lg=uk)

Anyone confirm this.

My plan from here -
1. Spend a little bit of money on lighter tubes and tires.
2. Try my mate's ksiriums - unfortunately he's away for a couple of weeks atm so that will
have to wait.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

cheers dim
 
"Mark Janeba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:nz5Nb.57672$na.39146@attbi_s04...
> Mike S. wrote:
> > Most of the guys espousing the fact that wheels don't make a difference probably haven't ridden
> > them enough to be able to tell. OR they just
can't
> > tell even if they have ridden them.
> >
> > I'm one of those people JUST barely strong enough to hang with the local fast guys. When I'm
> > riding my "normal" wheels, it is a struggle. When
I'm
> > riding my Cosmics, 404s, or my Ritchey Pro wheels, its easier to hang
on.
>
> Same tires, tubes, inflation pressure? THOSE differences are easy to
feel.

and maybe thats something I'm overlooking. My current tires are only rated to 120psi, I'm guessing
my rims are slightly higher. I recently went through the joys of the transition from riding on
tires that were pumped up to ~ 80psi, to tires pumped up with a floor pump to 120psi. This was a
_huge_ difference. I wonder if getting myself up to 130 or 140 is the biggest thing I'd notice
moving up again.

cheers dim
 
On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:43:02 +1100, "Dmitri Colebatch"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> And that is the real question. Unless the wheels you have now have steel rims, or are damaged in
>> some way, I see no reason to replace them.
>
>David,
>
>Thanks - you're spot on, that is the real question. They're mavic cxp21 - which I _think_ (by
>looking at them) are aluminium, but I really have no idea. They dont see to get a mention on
>Mavic's site (http://www.mavic.com/servlet/srt/mavic/road-prod?lg=uk)
>
>Anyone confirm this.

I have 'em, and they seem aluminum to me; I can't imagine what OTHER material they could be. They
are absolutely, positively not steel.

I like them. They treat me well, and are not particularly heavy themselves.

>My plan from here -
> 1. Spend a little bit of money on lighter tubes and tires.

Inexpensive, lightweight, and dependable IME (YMMV): Bontrager "Superlight weight" 700 x 18c - 25c
tube, listed at 65g.

The tires that came on my bike are Hutchinson Carbon Comp, are rather light (210gm IIRC), and get
good traction. They exhibit much rubber deterioration (probably because they're stored next to an
active air conditioner) and cuts in the tread, but appear structurally sound; I weigh 210 lbs and
inflate them to 125psi. They feel good and haven't failed.

> 2. Try my mate's ksiriums - unfortunately he's away for a couple of weeks atm so that will have
> to wait.

Now's the perfect time, he won't miss them! <G>

>Thanks to everyone for their input.
>
>cheers dim
--
Rick Onanian
 
In article <nz5Nb.57672$na.39146@attbi_s04>, Mark Janeba
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Mike S. wrote:
> > Most of the guys espousing the fact that wheels don't make a difference probably haven't ridden
> > them enough to be able to tell. OR they just can't tell even if they have ridden them.
> >
> > I'm one of those people JUST barely strong enough to hang with the local fast guys. When I'm
> > riding my "normal" wheels, it is a struggle. When I'm riding my Cosmics, 404s, or my Ritchey Pro
> > wheels, its easier to hang on.

Maybe a placebo effect perhaps?? I used to ride both a "normal" wheelset (Campagnolo Mexico aero
rims laced 3 cross to Campy Veloce hubs) and a Spartacus professional 20/24 racing wheelset. These
are much lighter than my Mexico wheelset. Took it out for a spin with the local fast boys on uphill,
downhill and flats for a season and I notice NO SIGNIFICANT increase between my old and heavy
wheelset than my newer paired spoked wheels. The paired spoke wheels were unreliable in that, they
sometimes go out of true after many miles of riding. It's significantly harsher than my Mexico
wheels (which is harsh as well). I actually time trialed the wheels over, over and over again at the
same flat course next to an airport (so you get really really strong headwind) and noticed NO
SIGNIFICANT advantage whatsoever. I finally sold the wheel with the bike for more than I thought I
could get them for, thanks probably in part by the hype.

Make sure also that you are not getting a tailwind while you're testing the wheels. What you thought
might be the added boost riding with the peloton was probably the effect caused by some external
environmental help. Try to average your runs for the same route for at least a season to see if the
new wheels do help. More than often, I found that people who had bought these fancy wheels ended up
selling them off a year later.
 
> Maybe a placebo effect perhaps?? I used to ride both a "normal" wheelset (Campagnolo Mexico aero
> rims laced 3 cross to Campy Veloce hubs) and a Spartacus professional 20/24 racing wheelset. These
> are much lighter than my Mexico wheelset. Took it out for a spin with the local fast boys on
> uphill, downhill and flats for a season and I notice NO SIGNIFICANT increase between my old and
> heavy wheelset than my newer paired spoked wheels. The paired spoke wheels were unreliable in
> that, they sometimes go out of true after many miles of riding. It's significantly harsher than my
> Mexico wheels (which is harsh as well). I actually time trialed the wheels over, over and over
> again at the same flat course next to an airport (so you get really really strong headwind) and
> noticed NO SIGNIFICANT advantage whatsoever. I finally sold the wheel with the bike for more than
> I thought I could get them for, thanks probably in part by the hype.
>
> Make sure also that you are not getting a tailwind while you're testing the wheels. What you
> thought might be the added boost riding with the peloton was probably the effect caused by some
> external environmental help. Try to average your runs for the same route for at least a season to
> see if the new wheels do help. More than often, I found that people who had bought these fancy
> wheels ended up selling them off a year later.

See: "Most of the guys espousing the fact that wheels don't make a difference probably haven't
ridden them enough to be able to tell. OR they just can't tell even if they have ridden them."

To the OP: you tried any of your friend's wheels yet? What did you feel?

Mike
 
The differences in drag between wheels are small, much less than what one can "feel" while riding.
Hold a couple of fingers out in the air. This would be about the magnitude of the difference. One
can divide wheels into three groups, box-section rims (Kysrium), deep section rims (Alps), and
disks. With very careful measurement, one can quantify the drag differences between these groups of
wheels. However, within a group, there is very little detectable difference (after repeated
measurements in a wind tunnel). And the difference between drag depends on the direction of the
apparent wind.

The importance of less drag is in the eye of the beholder. In a race where five riders will finish
within a wheel of each other, aero wheels can make a half wheel difference which may matter to five
riders, but not to the rest.

You can quantify differences in wheels using the calculators at www.AnalyticCycling.com.

You can quantify differences based on apparent wind using
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffEqWindCourse_Page.html

Regards,

Tom Compton www.AnalyticCycling.com
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Make sure also that you are not getting a tailwind while you're testing the wheels. What you
> thought might be the added boost riding with the peloton was probably the effect caused by some
> external environmental help. Try to average your runs for the same route for at least a season to
> see if the new wheels do help.

Also, make sure your fitness level stays exactly the same.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Now is the time for all good men to come to.
-- Walt Kelly
 
In article <NTJNb.25280$XD5.20468@fed1read06>, Mike S.
<mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote:

> > Maybe a placebo effect perhaps?? I used to ride both a "normal" wheelset (Campagnolo Mexico aero
> > rims laced 3 cross to Campy Veloce hubs) and a Spartacus professional 20/24 racing wheelset.
> > These are much lighter than my Mexico wheelset. Took it out for a spin with the local fast boys
> > on uphill, downhill and flats for a season and I notice NO SIGNIFICANT increase between my old
> > and heavy wheelset than my newer paired spoked wheels. The paired spoke wheels were unreliable
> > in that, they sometimes go out of true after many miles of riding. It's significantly harsher
> > than my Mexico wheels (which is harsh as well). I actually time trialed the wheels over, over
> > and over again at the same flat course next to an airport (so you get really really strong
> > headwind) and noticed NO SIGNIFICANT advantage whatsoever. I finally sold the wheel with the
> > bike for more than I thought I could get them for, thanks probably in part by the hype.
> >
> > Make sure also that you are not getting a tailwind while you're testing the wheels. What you
> > thought might be the added boost riding with the peloton was probably the effect caused by some
> > external environmental help. Try to average your runs for the same route for at least a season
> > to see if the new wheels do help. More than often, I found that people who had bought these
> > fancy wheels ended up selling them off a year later.
>
> See: "Most of the guys espousing the fact that wheels don't make a difference probably haven't
> ridden them enough to be able to tell. OR they just can't tell even if they have ridden them."
>

Or had ridden them enough to sell them off. What you'll see later on with these boutique wheels is
that, They are usually no as durable as handbuilt wheels. They were never meant to last a long long
time. At least, a race is not a 1 or 5 years obligation right? For pro racers, the next new wheel is
just a support van away. And yet, replacement parts for these wheels are hard to find or sometimes
extremely pricy, which are not a problem for Lance Armstrong anyways. He probably gets them for
free. I don't.

I had ridden the boutique wheelsets for close to 10,000 miles. Maybe, in your eyes, I may not have
ridden them enough? If you have read my past statement, I tested it over and over again on the same
route near the airport where you know you're going to get mostly straight head wind. You couldn't
get a better testing ground than that! I tested it in various climates, days and physical
conditioning and noticed no significant improvement.

> To the OP: you tried any of your friend's wheels yet? What did you feel?
>
No.. Don't need too. They ride Trek 5900s and Litespeeds with better wheels than I do as they came
stock. I have no problems keeping up with them even with the stock 36 spoke wheels.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

G
Replies
0
Views
341
G
A
Replies
25
Views
3K
Cycling Equipment
Booker C . Bens
B
A
Replies
25
Views
995
Cycling Equipment
Booker C. Bense
B