Wheel and tire confusion.

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by fosterius, Jun 7, 2020.

  1. fosterius

    fosterius New Member

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    I'm trying to fix up an old Argon 18 road bike that I found on Craigslist for my 12-year-old son. The tires are completely worn out, they keep popping off the rims and the tubes keep bursting. The rims are ALEXRIMS DR13 and they say ETRTO 568x13 on the label.

    I just bought a pair of 650x23c Continental Gator Skins (I was going from what was on the old tires) but they won't stay on the rim either. I'm new to all of this and quite frankly I'm feeling utterly lost with all of the different tire measurements out there. What size tire would fit that rim or where can I buy an affordable 650c wheelset (clincher with rim brakes)?
     
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  2. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure about ETRTO 568?
    ETRTO is one of the more sensible sizing systems, and I can’t find 568 mentioned. Not even in this otherwise excellent article https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

    or here:https://www.skeppshult.se/media/1140/techinfo-2015_gb.pdf
    There’d 650B, with a Bead Seat Diameter (where rim and tire overlap) of 584 mm.
    Then 650C with a BSD of 571 mm.
    Can’t recommend any particular source of 650C wheels.
    DR13 is the rim profile. It may have been used for several different diameters of rims.
     
  3. fosterius

    fosterius New Member

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    Thanks dabac. Yes. I'm sure about the ETRTO label. Have a look at the photo below. I too, googled the snot out of it and came up with nothing. And I'm beginning to believe that I actually am trying to put a 571mm tire (650x23c) on a 568mm rim. There's a 3mm bulge that is impossible to get rid of. I've tried soap and water to get the tire centred as best as I can but I wind up chasing the bulge around the wheel. The back tire is holding up but it's tenuous at best.

    The goal here has been to get my son out riding with me but he's not getting on any road bike with 700 wheels just yet as he's fairly small-framed. The bike has come together well but replacing the tires has decommissioned it. I don't know what my options are at this point. I'm out the cash for the tires I just bought—tires that apparently are made for extinct wheels. Is there even a wheelset that I could put on this bike... one that is not worth more than the $275 I've spend on building it?

    IMG_20200608_161510_2.jpg IMG_20200608_163345.jpg
     
  4. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations, you seem to be the owner of something even more rare than my weird Uni-Glide hub with the core of the freehub an integral part of the hub.

    One thing you can try is to build up the rim strip. There’s a 3 mm thick neoprene-like tape used for pipe insulation that works reasonably well. A common trick to get regular tires to set up tubeless. It’ll help center the tire.
    The bike manufacturer, Argon 18 is still in business. Have you tried contacting them?
    Or head over to bikeforums.com and post your dilemma. There’s some really experienced people there.

    If those are 568, then what about going to 26”?
    The most common 26” is 559 mm ETRTO. You can still get decent skinny tires for those. It’s a 4.5mm drop in radius. Looking at the pic, it seems like it would be within the adjustment range of the front brake.
    You might need to swap in a long-reach rear brake. Tektro makes some that are perfectly acceptable.
     
  5. fosterius

    fosterius New Member

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    I had thought of that but I figured the issue is more the wire on the tire getting (and staying) under the clincher on the rim. It could work as you say, though, since it would help to centre the tire.

    I hadn't thought of that! I've sent three messages to ALEXRIMS but have not had any response. I'll try Argon and see what they say. Failing these two options, I think you're right, I'll need to look at new wheels or abandoning the whole project as my son will grow out of the bike by next year.
     
  6. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    As far as the tire blowing off the rim, I would remove the rim strip then inspect real closely for any cracks in the rim, inside and outside, also check the rim hook where the bead is suppose to fasten to for cracks or debris like rubber build up. Then install new rim tape as discussed earlier. When inspecting the rim tell us if the rim is a hooked rim or just hookless, I doubt it's hookless but just go entertain yourself and me.

    Also how much psi does the tires say is the max? Are you exceeding that max? At what PSI does the tire blow off the bead? How much does your son weigh? that is a weird question but once I get his weight I'll check something and tell you to try an experiment depending on your answer to what PSI does the tire blow off.
     
  7. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    Well, the good thing is that you should be able to get some used rim brake 26” wheels for next to nothing to try the fit out. And as long as you get a pair with regular cup&cone bearings resizing the rear axle is also no big deal.
    Once you’re done, you’ll have a junior-sized real road bike. It may take awhile to find a buyer, But you should be able to get your money back.
     
  8. fosterius

    fosterius New Member

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    The rim looks in amazing condition to me. They look to be aluminum and are very clean with a solid plastic liner inside. There's no tape.
    I'm guessing hooked. I'll attach some photos.
    8.5 bar or 120 psi
    No. The tire would never stay on the rim.
    At 80 psi the tire will just blow out of the rim and the tube will pop. At 65 psi, the tire will stay on the rim and it looks and feels pretty good but if you walk away, it will slowly come off the rim in about 10 - 30 min. If my son rides it in this period it will come off. He managed to ride about one kilometre the other day with the tire at 45 psi but it popped off and blew going over rail road tracks. FYI, I'm using Conti Race 26 tubes (see pic)
    75 lbs.

    IMG_20200612_123000.jpg IMG_20200612_122943.jpg IMG_20200612_123014.jpg IMG_20200612_123037.jpg
     
  9. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    well it all sounds and looks good.

    So the next thing to try doing is to put about 20 pounds of psi into the tire, then visually inspect the tire's sidewall on both sides of the tire around the entire circumference and make sure the sidewall (actually you are going to want to look at the mold line in particular) is evenly in place around the rim, pump another 10 psi in and recheck, keep doing that as you reach your 65 psi limit before it blows off.

    Some are saying you're not installing it correctly but I have a feeling this isn't your first rodeo at putting on a tire, so I doubt that's the case.

    If it still blows off the tire may have a damaged bead. The only other option is to take it to the bike shop, since I can't be there to see exactly what's happening I can't help you, so you need another set of eyes to look at it.
     
  10. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    by the way, is the tire blowing off at the same spot on the tire, and or on the rim?
     
  11. fosterius

    fosterius New Member

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    No. Tires are brand new and rims are excellent. They are clearly just a few mm too large for the rim.
     
  12. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    Geez that's weird, I've never seen tires made incorrectly to the wrong size. Well then you know you'll have to take the tires back.
     
  13. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    According to the 1st post, it’s the rims that are made to a non-standard size.
     
  14. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I forgot that, thanks.
     
  15. fosterius

    fosterius New Member

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    I'm going to work on dabac's neoprene rim strip idea. My thinking is that if the wheel is 568mm and a 650 tire is 571mm, then I need a 1.5mm spacer all the way around the tube channel. The theory breaks down in my mind, however, since it's the tire that needs the spacing and not the tube. But if the pressure in the tube can keep the tire centered, then it just might work.

    On another note, I still have no reply back from ALEXRIMS and a kinda funny, not-so-helpful response back from Argon18 but I'll give them some more time.

    In defense of this effort, it's a very cool little bike and it rides/looks spectacular!
     
  16. fosterius

    fosterius New Member

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    Finally got around to working on this again...

    Dabac... your solution worked. I basically needed to increase the diameter of the wheel by 3mm so with my digital caliper, I found that six layers of whatever brand duct tape was in my garage gave me 1.5mm thickness. I made a jig to cut the roll down to 14mm for good coverage of the rim bed and then started wrapping it around the wheel... yep... six times! That's about 36 feet of duct tape I put in there... on each wheel!

    I reinstalled the tire and slowly increased the pressure as my son went for test rides. The tire is not bulging at all and it's up to 50 psi now. I'll keep slowly adding pressure but I don't need much as those little tires feel like steel at 70 psi.

    Thanks for all your help!

    3001.jpeg 3002.jpeg
     
  17. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    Glad to hear you're making progress.
    Here's the kind of tape I was thinking about:https://www.amazon.com/Frost-King-I...=1592997283&sprefix=insulating,aps,294&sr=8-3
    But if it works, it works.
    Re Alexrims: I'm not surprised you're not getting any answer from them.
    My guess is that the big manufacturers get so many basic questions that they simply ignore the "official" mailbox.
    You could try the Argon route again. This time by contacting a dealer. Hopefully a smaller operator is willing to actually read your email.
     
  18. fosterius

    fosterius New Member

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    Bike is running great and tires are up to 65 psi now. I did look at some tapes like that in my local hardware store but decided to go with the duct tape because I could get the exact thickness that I needed and being an experiment, it was free! I could see upgrading it in the future so thanks for the link.

    I didn't get anywhere with Argon18. I got a short response asking me if those were the wheels that came with the bike. Seriously?! I told them I didn't know as I bought it used and then sent a bunch of pics to see if they could tell me what wheels originally came with the bike. Their response was to go to my local rep.
     
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