Wheel Building; Oval Spokes (AE15); Twist; Radial Truing

[Ron Ruff]

I just had the pleasure of building some wheels for the first time in
12 years or so... actually just respoking some old wheels. It seemed to
go pretty well. I used Wheelsmith AE15 (oval butted 1.8-2.2x1.2-1.8) 2x
front and left rear, and 2.0-1.7 spokes 3x right rear.

I was surprised that the AE15s have a rough finish in the oval
section... like a bead blasted texture. Is this normal? I used them a
long time ago, and don't recall them being like that. Has anyone used
these or other oval spokes, and can comment on the finish?

The lack of windup was also interesting... because their torsional
stiffness is about as low as any spoke made. It was only about 60
degrees max, and it was very easy to set them back to neutral since I
could see exactly how much they'd twisted. I did use gease on the
threads... is that all that is needed to minimize windup? I'd also
considered that I hadn't tightened them enough (no tension gauge), but
the mechanic at the local shop (who has built thousands of wheels),
said they were fine... using his calibrated fingers. I didn't take them
up to the point of near-taco... but they certainly seem tight to me.

Another thing I wonder about is radial truing. There has been about a
1mm hop in the rear wheel ever since I bought it. After respoking it is
still there... in exactly the same place (rim joint). I briefly tried
to "fix" this when I started to tension the spokes, but it seemed like
a lot of tension variation was needed to have any effect... so I gave
up and just worried about getting the tension even. Is it possible to
get radial trueness on a rim that isn't inherently, and still get a
good wheel? Or is it better to focus on getting the tension even?
Sometimes I think I can feel the hop, but the roads are pretty rough
around here...

To easily get high tension on the right-rear, I decided to initially
dish the rim far to the right... get all the tension even and wheel
true in that position, and right side spokes tight... then tighten the
left side spokes only to bring the rim into line. It worked great...
much nicer to just be tightening the left side spokes late in the
build.

Stress relieving in the usually way was not fun (sharp spokes!) so
instead I pushed in with the palms of my hands on parallel spokes, went
all the way around, then pulled out on them. It seemed to work... at
least I hope it was good enough. I'm feeling it in my chest muscles
today, though...

I used brass spoke head washers on the AE15s... don't know if it was
necessary, but they are kinda pretty on the black hubs.

Anyway, I'm glad I did it... and encourage anybody who has at least a
small portion of mechanical ability and patience to look at Jobst's
book, Sheldon's website, and/or any other guide you can find... and
give it a try. Don't be in a hurry... it took me about 7 hrs to do both
wheels! Even if they fall apart a little while from now... at least
I'll know who to blame!

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Ron Ruff wrote:
> I just had the pleasure of building some wheels for the first time in
> 12 years or so... actually just respoking some old wheels. It seemed to
> go pretty well. I used Wheelsmith AE15 (oval butted 1.8-2.2x1.2-1.8) 2x
> front and left rear, and 2.0-1.7 spokes 3x right rear.
>
> I was surprised that the AE15s have a rough finish in the oval
> section... like a bead blasted texture. Is this normal? I used them a
> long time ago, and don't recall them being like that. Has anyone used
> these or other oval spokes, and can comment on the finish?
>
> The lack of windup was also interesting... because their torsional
> stiffness is about as low as any spoke made. It was only about 60
> degrees max, and it was very easy to set them back to neutral since I
> could see exactly how much they'd twisted. I did use gease on the
> threads... is that all that is needed to minimize windup? I'd also
> considered that I hadn't tightened them enough (no tension gauge), but
> the mechanic at the local shop (who has built thousands of wheels),
> said they were fine... using his calibrated fingers. I didn't take them
> up to the point of near-taco... but they certainly seem tight to me.

A 'Twist-assist', a modified 4th hand from QBP will prevent windup at
all. 'Calibrated fingers', giggle, at the beginning of the day with
fresh fingers or the end of the day with tired fingers?

>
> Another thing I wonder about is radial truing. There has been about a
> 1mm hop in the rear wheel ever since I bought it. After respoking it is
> still there... in exactly the same place (rim joint). I briefly tried
> to "fix" this when I started to tension the spokes, but it seemed like
> a lot of tension variation was needed to have any effect... so I gave
> up and just worried about getting the tension even. Is it possible to
> get radial trueness on a rim that isn't inherently, and still get a
> good wheel? Or is it better to focus on getting the tension even?
> Sometimes I think I can feel the hop, but the roads are pretty rough
> around here...

Even tension is more important but you can have an effect on that spot
by varying the tension a few spokes away from the seam on each side,
raising it and lowering it a wee bit around the seam.
>
> To easily get high tension on the right-rear, I decided to initially
> dish the rim far to the right... get all the tension even and wheel
> true in that position, and right side spokes tight... then tighten the
> left side spokes only to bring the rim into line. It worked great...
> much nicer to just be tightening the left side spokes late in the
> build.

The 'technique' taught by Tim Breen, long time DT wheel tech.
>
> Stress relieving in the usually way was not fun (sharp spokes!) so
> instead I pushed in with the palms of my hands on parallel spokes, went
> all the way around, then pulled out on them. It seemed to work... at
> least I hope it was good enough. I'm feeling it in my chest muscles
> today, though...

\Put on some gloves.
>
> I used brass spoke head washers on the AE15s... don't know if it was
> necessary, but they are kinda pretty on the black hubs.
>
> Anyway, I'm glad I did it... and encourage anybody who has at least a
> small portion of mechanical ability and patience to look at Jobst's
> book, Sheldon's website, and/or any other guide you can find... and
> give it a try. Don't be in a hurry... it took me about 7 hrs to do both
> wheels! Even if they fall apart a little while from now... at least
> I'll know who to blame!

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

Ron Ruff wrote:

> The lack of windup was also interesting... because their torsional
> stiffness is about as low as any spoke made. It was only about 60
> degrees max, and it was very easy to set them back to neutral since I
> could see exactly how much they'd twisted. I did use gease on the
> threads... is that all that is needed to minimize windup?
>
Now go and build a wheel using DT Revolution spokes, and discover the
true meaning of spoke wind-up. They are awful to build with.

 

[Ron Ruff]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Even tension is more important but you can have an effect on that spot
> by varying the tension a few spokes away from the seam on each side,
> raising it and lowering it a wee bit around the seam.
>

Thanks for the advice... I think I'll try again. The problem is that
the rim bends *in* at that point for only a short span (<90 degrees)
and it's round everywhere else. It seems like I'd need to bend the rim
out a bit. Loosen the spokes and pull on that area with a strap...
maybe?

 

[john]

Ron Ruff wrote:
>> The lack of windup was also interesting... because their torsional
>> stiffness is about as low as any spoke made. It was only about 60
>> degrees max, and it was very easy to set them back to neutral since I
>> could see exactly how much they'd twisted. I did use gease on the
>> threads... is that all that is needed to minimize windup?

Zog The Undeniable wrote:

>Now go and build a wheel using DT Revolution spokes, and discover the
>true meaning of spoke wind-up. They are awful to build with.

Hi Zog

Not really if you use the 'Twist-Assist' that Peter refers to above. I
don't allow anything close to 60 deg wind up. I use the new style Hozan
spoke wrench in the horizontal position, which allows the Twist-Assist
to be just above the wrench, when wind-up starts to become a factor.

John

 

[[email protected]]

John Drew writes:

>>> The lack of windup was also interesting... because their torsional
>>> stiffness is about as low as any spoke made. It was only about 60
>>> degrees max, and it was very easy to set them back to neutral
>>> since I could see exactly how much they'd twisted. I used grease
>>> on the threads... is that all that is needed to minimize windup?

>> Now go and build a wheel using DT Revolution spokes, and discover
>> the true meaning of spoke wind-up. They are awful to build with.

> Not really if you use the 'Twist-Assist' that Peter refers to
> above. I don't allow anything close to 60 deg wind up. I use the
> new style Hozan spoke wrench in the horizontal position, which
> allows the Twist-Assist to be just above the wrench, when wind-up
> starts to become a factor.

As I have mentioned here often, the torque of a tight lubricated
1.8-1.5mm spoke exceeds what steel pliers with gripping grooves in the
jaws will arrest. If Twist-Assist "works" it is only because the
spokes are not tight. As an example, try twisting a 1.5mm spoke to
failure with the Twist-Assist. A spoke wrench will readily do this
in the range of tension common for a reliable wheel with 24 or fewer
such spokes.

Jobst Brandt

 

[john]

Jobst Brandt wrote:


>As I have mentioned here often, the torque of a tight lubricated
>1.8-1.5mm spoke exceeds what steel pliers with gripping grooves in the
>jaws will arrest. If Twist-Assist "works" it is only because the
>spokes are not tight. As an example, try twisting a 1.5mm spoke to
>failure with the Twist-Assist. A spoke wrench will readily do this
>in the range of tension common for a reliable wheel with 24 or fewer
>such spokes.

Hello Josbt

What you say is probably true for a 24 spoke wheel.
Recently I built a rear wheel using DT Revolution (2.0 / 1.5) spokes on
the left side. Their average tension was 63 kg. The right side spokes
were Sapim Race (2.0 / 1.8) The ave. tension was 105 kg per Wheelsmith
gage. The rim was a 26" 32 hole Ritchey OCR. I think that is quite
satisfactory tension.
I will grant you that with a 2.0 / 1.5 spoke, if the Twist-Assist isn't
used w/ the Hozan "HZ C125 wrench, it will allow the spoke to slip &
rotate. The Hozan wrench has 2 positions it can be used. One is the
normal vertical, in which it interferes w/ the Twist-Assist, just as
any other vertical wrench would. The other position is horizontal,
flare wrench in which the wrench allows the Twist-Assist to very close
to the nipple. (In fact it can touch the nipple) The Twist-Assist is
actually clamped onto the 2.0mm portion of the spoke. Also the it must
be positioned exactly so that the spoke is captured exactly in the
corner of the bent portion of the grip. If it is aligned so that the
spoke is not touching both sides of the corner it will twist. Unless
one has seen & clamped a spoke in the device, it is difficult to
visualize what I'm saying. I mark all my spokes w/ Sharpie as an index
to see any rotation.

John

 

[Bikefixr]

I've used thousands of the AE-15's. When they first came out, the
finish was quite bright. Suddenly, about 1998 the finish got that
crappy matte finish. I sent many boxes back to the Ric Hjertberg. They
were replaced, but half still looked bad. Some had terrible forming as
well with the halves not being mirrored properly. Overall, I'm still
dissappointed. I have used Alpina ellipticals and they look much
better, but they seem to be a lot more brittle. I lose heads on
occassion. DT's seem to be decent. Dull. I spend 20 mins on the felt
buffing wheel to make them look good before I lace them into a high end
bike.

Ron Ruff wrote:
> I just had the pleasure of building some wheels for the first time in
> 12 years or so... actually just respoking some old wheels. It seemed to
> go pretty well. I used Wheelsmith AE15 (oval butted 1.8-2.2x1.2-1.8) 2x
> front and left rear, and 2.0-1.7 spokes 3x right rear.
>
> I was surprised that the AE15s have a rough finish in the oval
> section... like a bead blasted texture. Is this normal? I used them a
> long time ago, and don't recall them being like that. Has anyone used
> these or other oval spokes, and can comment on the finish?
>
> The lack of windup was also interesting... because their torsional
> stiffness is about as low as any spoke made. It was only about 60
> degrees max, and it was very easy to set them back to neutral since I
> could see exactly how much they'd twisted. I did use gease on the
> threads... is that all that is needed to minimize windup? I'd also
> considered that I hadn't tightened them enough (no tension gauge), but
> the mechanic at the local shop (who has built thousands of wheels),
> said they were fine... using his calibrated fingers. I didn't take them
> up to the point of near-taco... but they certainly seem tight to me.
>
> Another thing I wonder about is radial truing. There has been about a
> 1mm hop in the rear wheel ever since I bought it. After respoking it is
> still there... in exactly the same place (rim joint). I briefly tried
> to "fix" this when I started to tension the spokes, but it seemed like
> a lot of tension variation was needed to have any effect... so I gave
> up and just worried about getting the tension even. Is it possible to
> get radial trueness on a rim that isn't inherently, and still get a
> good wheel? Or is it better to focus on getting the tension even?
> Sometimes I think I can feel the hop, but the roads are pretty rough
> around here...
>
> To easily get high tension on the right-rear, I decided to initially
> dish the rim far to the right... get all the tension even and wheel
> true in that position, and right side spokes tight... then tighten the
> left side spokes only to bring the rim into line. It worked great...
> much nicer to just be tightening the left side spokes late in the
> build.
>
> Stress relieving in the usually way was not fun (sharp spokes!) so
> instead I pushed in with the palms of my hands on parallel spokes, went
> all the way around, then pulled out on them. It seemed to work... at
> least I hope it was good enough. I'm feeling it in my chest muscles
> today, though...
>
> I used brass spoke head washers on the AE15s... don't know if it was
> necessary, but they are kinda pretty on the black hubs.
>
> Anyway, I'm glad I did it... and encourage anybody who has at least a
> small portion of mechanical ability and patience to look at Jobst's
> book, Sheldon's website, and/or any other guide you can find... and
> give it a try. Don't be in a hurry... it took me about 7 hrs to do both
> wheels! Even if they fall apart a little while from now... at least
> I'll know who to blame!

 

[Ron Ruff]

Bikefixr wrote:
> I've used thousands of the AE-15's. When they first came out, the
> finish was quite bright. Suddenly, about 1998 the finish got that
> crappy matte finish.

Interesting... Wheelsmith started manufacturing their own spokes in
Montana in 1996, instead of getting them from Japan.

http://www.wheelsmith.com/index_files/wsintroduction.htm

I thought the AE15s were shiney in the old days, too. Did you stop
using them? Did you have many failures? I don't mind the rough finish
so much, and the shapes were consistent as far as I could tell.

> DT's seem to be decent. Dull. I spend 20 mins on the felt
> buffing wheel to make them look good before I lace them into a high end
> bike.

That's sad... those DT ovals are really expensive, too! Have you used
similar oval spokes like the Sapim CX-rays? They cost even more, but
might be worth it if you didn't have to polish them.