Wheel building Question

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Dorn, Jun 25, 2003.

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  1. Dorn

    Dorn Guest

    Is it neccessary to use a tandem specific hub When building a new tandem wheel? (Front Specifically)
    Or can I use a standard road hub. I am using v-brakes on the wheel in case you are wondering and the
    team weighs in at 350+#'s (my wife wont give me the exact weight). Thanks Chris
     
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  2. Paul Kopit

    Paul Kopit Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 08:38:36 -0400, "dorn" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Is it neccessary to use a tandem specific hub When building a new tandem wheel? (Front
    >Specifically) Or can I use a standard road hub. I am using v-brakes on the wheel in case you are
    >wondering and the team weighs in at 350+#'s (my wife wont give me the exact weight). Thanks Chris
    >

    You can use a standard road hub but there are problems. Std road hubs will be hard to find in
    drillings of more than 36 spokes. A 36 hole MTB hub can work fine but the hub spacing is usually 135
    mm. That can be adjusted with 10 mm of spacers on the left side. If the spacing on your tandem frame
    is 160 mm, forget it.

    If you have the hole for a caliper rim brake and don't use fenders, get a long reach, dual pivot
    rear brake.
     
  3. On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 08:38:36 -0400, "dorn" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Is it neccessary to use a tandem specific hub When building a new tandem wheel? (Front
    >Specifically) Or can I use a standard road hub. I am using v-brakes on the wheel in case you are
    >wondering and the team weighs in at 350+#'s (my wife wont give me the exact weight).

    Does your current wheel use regular 36 spokes now or the fairly tandem specific 40 or 48? If you've
    bought a tandem without a front wheel[1], count the spokes in the rear wheel. That should give you
    an idea. Tandem front spacing is still 100 mm, I think, though in the rear they often use wheels
    that are wider than normal spacing, so the only difference between a tandem front and a regular
    front is extra strength -- possibly stronger/thicker flanges, and more spokes.

    Jasper

    [1] If you've bought a bike without a front wheel, are you sure the deal's legit? Bikes that
    are only locked on their front sometimes get stolen wholesale leaving the front wheel
    locked to the rack.
     
  4. Dorn

    Dorn Guest

    I have not bought a bike without a front wheel, it just happens that the 40 hole front wheel came
    with a really cheap hub which even after adjustment and regreasing will not spin smoothly. I want to
    build a wheel which is more aero and also with 36 spokes. the spacing is 100mm so any standard road
    hub should work, I am however concerned with the strength of road hubs in comparison to tandem
    specific hubs. I know that racing tandem wheels come with as few as 32 spokes and I figure that if I
    use 14/15 ga. double butted spokes the strength should be adequate, but will the hub last? The
    reason I am not building a rear wheel is that I may in the future want to install disc brakes on the
    bike and if I do then I will build a wheel with a disc specific hub, but that decision is down the
    road some. Chris "Jasper Janssen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 08:38:36 -0400, "dorn" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >Is it neccessary to use a tandem specific hub When building a new tandem wheel? (Front
    > >Specifically) Or can I use a standard road hub. I am using v-brakes on the wheel in case you are
    > >wondering and the team weighs in at 350+#'s (my wife wont give me the exact weight).
    >
    > Does your current wheel use regular 36 spokes now or the fairly tandem specific 40 or 48? If
    > you've bought a tandem without a front wheel[1], count the spokes in the rear wheel. That should
    > give you an idea. Tandem front spacing is still 100 mm, I think, though in the rear they often use
    > wheels that are wider than normal spacing, so the only difference between a tandem front and a
    > regular front is extra strength -- possibly stronger/thicker flanges, and more spokes.
    >
    >
    > Jasper
    >
    > [1] If you've bought a bike without a front wheel, are you sure the deal's legit? Bikes that are
    > only locked on their front sometimes get stolen wholesale leaving the front wheel locked to
    > the rack.
     
  5. "dorn" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I have not bought a bike without a front wheel, it just happens that the
    40
    > hole front wheel came with a really cheap hub which even after adjustment and regreasing will not
    > spin smoothly. I want to build a wheel which is
    more
    > aero and also with 36 spokes. the spacing is 100mm so any standard road
    hub
    > should work, I am however concerned with the strength of road hubs in comparison to tandem
    > specific hubs. I know that racing tandem wheels come with as few as 32 spokes and I figure that if
    > I use 14/15 ga. double
    butted
    > spokes the strength should be adequate, but will the hub last? The reason
    I
    > am not building a rear wheel is that I may in the future want to install disc brakes on the bike
    > and if I do then I will build a wheel with a disc specific hub, but that decision is down the road
    > some. Chris "> >

    IMO, with your team weight, a tandem hub is quite necessary. A tandem is so much more "aero" than a
    single, four less spokes in the front wheel are not going to make one whit's worth of a difference.
    What you will gain is a sacrifice in absolute strength and reliability. Having a front wheel fail on
    a tandem is one of the worst scenarios a bicyclist can imagine. Don't skimp or cheap-out on matters
    like this.
     
  6. On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 12:58:57 GMT, Paul Kopit <[email protected]> wrote:

    >You can use a standard road hub but there are problems. Std road hubs will be hard to find in
    >drillings of more than 36 spokes. A 36 hole MTB hub can work fine but the hub spacing is usually
    >135 mm. That can be adjusted with 10 mm of spacers on the left side. If the spacing on your tandem
    >frame is 160 mm, forget it.

    Both MTBs and tandems have 100 mm (front) hub spacing, typically, not 135, 145, or 160.

    Jasper
     
  7. Dorn

    Dorn Guest

    OK, then I have to ask a few further questions. First a clarification, by "aero" I simply mean a rim
    with a deep profile ie. Mavic cxp33 or Velocity Deep V. Not aerodynamic. I realize the aerodynamic
    advantage of a tandem versus two independant bikes drafting. What if I use a 36 hole tandem specific
    hub? I have always read that double butted spokes are stronger than straight ga. spokes due to the
    fact that they can give somewhat. Further I have also been under the impression that a rim with a
    deeper profile will build into a stronger wheel. So, by the nature of the wheel I am proposing to
    build, wouldn't a 36 hole tandem specific hub, with 14/15 gauge double butted spokes, with a deep
    section rim be stronger than a 40 spoke 14 ga. box section wheel with a crappy tandem specific hub?
    Do 4 spokes make that significant of a difference with respect to wheel strength? Am I really
    sacrificing "absolute strength and reliability"? I realize that wheels are not a place to skimp on a
    tandem, which is precisely why I want to build a new front wheel. I am just trying to get peoples
    opinion about the validity of strength claims with respect tandem specific hubs. I have noticed that
    a lot of tandems wheels are built with Shimano XT hubs, which I dont believe are tandem specific.
    They are also signifigantly cheaper than a tandem specific hub. If the strength of hubs don't vary
    greatly then why spend $100.00 dollars for a Hugi or King or Phil Wood hub? Not trying to beat a
    dead horse. Chris "Dave Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:%wiKa.17345$[email protected]...
    >
    > "dorn" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > I have not bought a bike without a front wheel, it just happens that the
    > 40
    > > hole front wheel came with a really cheap hub which even after
    adjustment
    > > and regreasing will not spin smoothly. I want to build a wheel which is
    > more
    > > aero and also with 36 spokes. the spacing is 100mm so any standard road
    > hub
    > > should work, I am however concerned with the strength of road hubs in comparison to tandem
    > > specific hubs. I know that racing tandem wheels
    come
    > > with as few as 32 spokes and I figure that if I use 14/15 ga. double
    > butted
    > > spokes the strength should be adequate, but will the hub last? The
    reason
    > I
    > > am not building a rear wheel is that I may in the future want to install disc brakes on the bike
    > > and if I do then I will build a wheel with a
    disc
    > > specific hub, but that decision is down the road some. Chris "> >
    >
    > IMO, with your team weight, a tandem hub is quite necessary. A tandem is
    so
    > much more "aero" than a single, four less spokes in the front wheel are not
    going
    > to make one whit's worth of a difference. What you will gain is a sacrifice in
    absolute
    > strength and reliability. Having a front wheel fail on a tandem is one of the worst scenarios a
    > bicyclist can imagine. Don't skimp or cheap-out on matters like this.
     
  8. "dorn" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > OK, then I have to ask a few further questions. First a clarification, by "aero" I simply mean a
    > rim with a deep profile
    ie.
    > Mavic cxp33 or Velocity Deep V. Not aerodynamic. I realize the aerodynamic advantage of a tandem
    > versus two independant bikes drafting. What if I use a 36 hole tandem specific hub? I have always
    > read that double butted spokes are stronger than straight
    ga.
    > spokes due to the fact that they can give somewhat. Further I have also been under the impression
    > that a rim with a deeper profile will build into a stronger wheel. So, by the nature of the wheel
    > I am proposing to build, wouldn't a 36 hole tandem specific hub, with 14/15 gauge double butted
    > spokes, with a deep section rim be stronger than a 40 spoke 14 ga. box section wheel with a crappy
    > tandem specific hub? Do 4 spokes make that significant of a difference with respect to wheel
    > strength? Am I really sacrificing
    "absolute
    > strength and reliability"? I realize that wheels are not a place to skimp on a tandem, which is
    > precisely why I want to build a new front wheel. I am just trying to get peoples opinion about the
    > validity of strength claims with respect tandem specific hubs. I have noticed that a lot of
    > tandems wheels are built with Shimano XT hubs, which I dont believe are tandem specific. They are
    > also signifigantly cheaper than a tandem specific hub. If the strength of hubs don't vary greatly
    > then why spend $100.00 dollars for a Hugi or King or
    Phil
    > Wood hub? Not trying to beat a dead horse.

    Chris: Respectfully, I would say that with your team weight (with bike) approaching 400# that your
    wheels should be the strongest build possible. Not only are they carrying the weight of the team,
    but must resist road "irregularities" (read potholes etc.) and other such loads.

    Why don't you contact the maker of your tandem to get their recommendations? It would seem to me to
    be more valid than most of ours. A better site to ask your question is on the tandem newsgroup
    [email protected] http://home.att.net/~thetandemlink/hobbes.html You should subscribe to it (free) there
    is valuable info provided every day. Another good tandem site is:
    http://home.att.net/~thetandemlink/
     
  9. John McGraw

    John McGraw Guest

    "Dave Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "dorn" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > OK, then I have to ask a few further questions. First a clarification, by "aero" I simply mean a
    > > rim with a deep profile
    > ie.
    > > Mavic cxp33 or Velocity Deep V. Not aerodynamic. I realize the aerodynamic advantage of a tandem
    > > versus two independant bikes drafting. What if I use a 36 hole tandem specific hub? I have
    > > always read that double butted spokes are stronger than straight
    > ga.
    > > spokes due to the fact that they can give somewhat. Further I have also been under the
    > > impression that a rim with a deeper profile will build into a stronger wheel. So, by the nature
    > > of the wheel I am proposing to build, wouldn't a 36 hole tandem specific hub, with 14/15 gauge
    > > double butted spokes, with a deep section rim be stronger than a 40 spoke 14 ga. box section
    > > wheel with a crappy tandem specific hub? Do 4 spokes make that significant of a difference with
    > > respect to wheel strength? Am I really sacrificing
    > "absolute
    > > strength and reliability"? I realize that wheels are not a place to skimp on a tandem, which is
    > > precisely why I want to build a new front wheel. I am just trying to get peoples opinion about
    > > the validity of strength claims with respect tandem specific hubs. I have noticed that a lot of
    > > tandems wheels are built with Shimano XT hubs, which I dont believe are tandem specific. They
    > > are also signifigantly cheaper than a tandem specific hub. If the strength of hubs don't vary
    > > greatly then why spend $100.00 dollars for a Hugi or King or
    > Phil
    > > Wood hub? Not trying to beat a dead horse.
    >
    > Chris: Respectfully, I would say that with your team weight (with bike) approaching 400# that your
    > wheels should be the strongest build possible. Not only are they carrying the weight of the team,
    > but must resist road "irregularities" (read potholes etc.) and other such loads.
    >
    > Why don't you contact the maker of your tandem to get their recommendations? It would seem to me
    > to be more valid than most of ours. A better site to ask your question is on the tandem newsgroup
    > [email protected] http://home.att.net/~thetandemlink/hobbes.html You should subscribe to it (free)
    > there is valuable info provided every day. Another good tandem site is:
    > http://home.att.net/~thetandemlink/

    I'm baffeled by something. This thread started w/ a date sometime back in the mid '90s. I see this
    happen regularly here. Can someone explain how or why this happens? How is it that really old
    posts get connected to current posts? Would it make more sense to have these under the original
    post as answers or partial answers? I really don't know. I'm truly confussed by this. Thanks for
    any info. John
     
  10. On 26 Jun 2003 02:28:53 -0700, [email protected] (John McGraw) wrote:

    >I'm baffeled by something. This thread started w/ a date sometime back in the mid '90s. I see this
    >happen regularly here. Can someone explain how or why this happens? How is it that really old
    >posts get connected to current posts? Would it make more sense to have these under the original
    >post as answers or partial answers? I really don't know. I'm truly confussed by this. Thanks for
    >any info. John

    You read from google, and google, besides having a massive database of posts stretching into the dim
    and hallowed pasts, threads by subject as well as by References: header. A subject like "Wheel
    building Question" is likely to have occurred before, and because the subject's the same Google
    mistakenly assumes the threads go together. Most newsreaders do the same, actually (on mine, I can
    choose), because References: headers sometimes fail to provide proper threading, but most
    newsreaders have at most a month or two worth of posts in their database. On a few groups I
    frequent, mine goes up to a year or two, but that's it.

    Jasper
     
  11. dorn <[email protected]> wrote:
    >So, by the nature of the wheel I am proposing to build, wouldn't a 36 hole tandem specific hub,
    >with 14/15 gauge double butted spokes, with a deep section rim be stronger than a 40 spoke 14 ga.
    >box section wheel with a crappy tandem specific hub?

    This is not a meaningful basis for decisions about the number of spokes; 36 or 40 spokes, you can
    use the same equipment (frex, quality of spokes) either way. I'd build it with 48 and not fret about
    the weight - after all, each rider's only pushing 24 up the hills. :)
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> Distortion Field!
     
  12. Harris

    Harris Guest

    John McGraw <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I'm baffeled by something. This thread started w/ a date sometime back in the mid '90s. I see this
    > happen regularly here. Can someone explain how or why this happens? How is it that really old
    > posts get connected to current posts? Would it make more sense to have these under the original
    > post as answers or partial answers? I really don't know. I'm truly confussed by this. Thanks for
    > any info. John

    I suspect you're using Google groups. Threads with common subject lines (like "Wheel Building
    Question") get threaded together with threads on the same subject from long ago.

    Art Harris
     
  13. Ben Dover

    Ben Dover Guest

    Check with David Nayer at Nimble http://www.nimble.net. They are in final design of a tandem version
    of their Crosswind wheel. Their Clydesdale Crosswind has a 280 lb weight limit, and the tandem
    version will support more than 400 lbs. They are extremely well made, and will be available in
    tubular and clincher versions.

    It should be extremely aero, and bulletproof as well. The front hubs are available now, and rear
    hubs are in production for 140, 145, and 160 spacing. The hubs will also accept a drag brake for
    those who want a maintenance free wheel on their touring tandem.

    This looks like a major improvement over 40-48 spoke tandem wheels.

    Kevin Saunders

    "dorn" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I have not bought a bike without a front wheel, it just happens that the
    40
    > hole front wheel came with a really cheap hub which even after adjustment and regreasing will not
    > spin smoothly. I want to build a wheel which is
    more
    > aero and also with 36 spokes. the spacing is 100mm so any standard road
    hub
    > should work, I am however concerned with the strength of road hubs in comparison to tandem
    > specific hubs. I know that racing tandem wheels come with as few as 32 spokes and I figure that if
    > I use 14/15 ga. double
    butted
    > spokes the strength should be adequate, but will the hub last? The reason
    I
    > am not building a rear wheel is that I may in the future want to install disc brakes on the bike
    > and if I do then I will build a wheel with a disc specific hub, but that decision is down the road
    > some. Chris "Jasper Janssen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 08:38:36 -0400, "dorn" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > >Is it neccessary to use a tandem specific hub When building a new
    tandem
    > > >wheel? (Front Specifically) Or can I use a standard road hub. I am
    using
    > > >v-brakes on the wheel in case you are wondering and the team weighs in
    at
    > > >350+#'s (my wife wont give me the exact weight).
    > >
    > > Does your current wheel use regular 36 spokes now or the fairly tandem specific 40 or 48? If
    > > you've bought a tandem without a front wheel[1], count the spokes in the rear wheel. That should
    > > give you an idea. Tandem front spacing is still 100 mm, I think, though in the rear they often
    use
    > > wheels that are wider than normal spacing, so the only difference
    between
    > > a tandem front and a regular front is extra strength -- possibly stronger/thicker flanges, and
    > > more spokes.
    > >
    > >
    > > Jasper
    > >
    > > [1] If you've bought a bike without a front wheel, are you sure the
    deal's
    > > legit? Bikes that are only locked on their front sometimes get stolen wholesale leaving the
    > > front wheel locked to the rack.
     
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