# Wheel building questions....

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Slacker, May 15, 2003.

Not open for further replies.
1. ### Slacker Guest

Just a few:

1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke prep?"

2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight gage spokes?

3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel set.....correct?

4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?

Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:

Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9

So, according to Mr. Brandt, one should use spokes within 1mm of the calculated size. This means
that I should use 256's for all except the Lr, which should be 258. But, rather than buying a box of
50 for just 18 spokes and for the sake of simplicity, I'm thinking of just going with all 256's.
What do you think?

Mucho gracias!
--
Slacker

Tags:

2. ### James Connell Guest

Slacker wrote:
> Just a few:
>
> 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke prep?"
>
> 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight gage spokes?
>
> 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel set.....correct?
>
> 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?
>
> Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
>
> Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9
>
> So, according to Mr. Brandt, one should use spokes within 1mm of the calculated size. This means
> that I should use 256's for all except the Lr, which should be 258. But, rather than buying a box
> of 50 for just 18 spokes and for the sake of simplicity, I'm thinking of just going with all
> 256's. What do you think?
>
>
> Mucho gracias!
> --
> Slacker
>
>
front - the 256's look fine. i'm a little worried you came out with different sizes! should be the
same if the hub is symetrical. i'd use the brass nipples hte increase in weight is only a couple
onces. the increase in strenght is considerable. the only thing about staight gage spokes is they
don't rap up as much. go with butted if you wish just be more carefull on the build. use boiled
linseed oil - best spoke prep made *ever*. grease the rim spoke holes. i don't know what your hub is
but it just don't look right! are you sure you got the hub measurement right! if you did go 256 all
the way around.

3. ### Technician Guest

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Slacker wrote:
> > Just a few:
> >
> > 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke prep?"
> >
> > 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight gage spokes?
> >
> > 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel set.....correct?
> >
> > 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?
> >
> > Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
> >
> > Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9
> >
> > So, according to Mr. Brandt, one should use spokes within 1mm of the calculated size. This means
> > that I should use 256's for all except the Lr, which should be 258. But, rather than buying a
> > box of 50 for just 18 spokes and for the sake of simplicity, I'm thinking of just going with all
> > 256's. What do you think?
> >
> >
> > Mucho gracias!
> > --
> > Slacker
> >
> >
> front - the 256's look fine. i'm a little worried you came out with different sizes! should be the
> same if the hub is symetrical. i'd use the brass nipples hte increase in weight is only a couple
> onces. the increase in strenght is considerable. the only thing about staight gage spokes is they
> don't rap up as much. go with butted if you wish just be more carefull on the build. use boiled
> linseed oil - best spoke prep made *ever*. grease the rim spoke holes. i don't know what your hub
> is but it just don't look right! are you sure you got the hub measurement right! if you did go 256
> all the way around.
>
>

Just a thought, do disk hubs have a different dish, and thus a different spoke length? (really
reaching for this one)
--
~Travis

4. ### Slacker Guest

> > Slacker wrote:
> > > Just a few:
> > >
> > > 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke prep?"
> > >
> > > 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight gage spokes?
> > >
> > > 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel set.....correct?
> > >
> > > 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?
> > >
> > > Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
> > >
> > > Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9
> > >
> > > So, according to Mr. Brandt, one should use spokes within 1mm of the calculated size. This
> > > means that I should use 256's for
all
> > > except the Lr, which should be 258. But, rather than buying a box of 50 for just 18 spokes and
> > > for the sake of simplicity,
I'm
> > > thinking of just going with all 256's. What do you think?
> > >
> > >
> > > Mucho gracias!
> > > --
> > > Slacker
> > >
> > >
> > front - the 256's look fine. i'm a little worried you came out with different sizes! should be
> > the same if the hub is symetrical. i'd use the brass nipples hte increase in weight is only a
> > couple onces. the increase in strenght is considerable. the only thing about staight gage spokes
> > is they don't rap up as much. go with butted if you wish just be more carefull on the build. use
> > boiled linseed oil - best spoke prep made *ever*. grease the rim spoke holes. i don't know what
> > your hub is but it just don't look right! are you sure you got the hub measurement right! if you
> > did go 256 all the way around.
> >
> >
>
> Just a thought, do disk hubs have a different dish, and thus a different spoke length? (really
> reaching for this one)
> --
> ~Travis

Actually Travis, you right on the money. There is an off-set to accommodate the extra width for the
rotor interface.
--
Slacker

5. ### D T W .../\\... Guest

"Slacker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Just a few:
>
> 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke
prep?"
>
> 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight
gage spokes?
>
> 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel
set.....correct?
>
> 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?
>
> Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
>
> Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9
>
> So, according to Mr. Brandt, one should use spokes within 1mm of the
calculated size. This means that I should use 256's for all
> except the Lr, which should be 258. But, rather than buying a box of 50
for just 18 spokes and for the sake of simplicity, I'm
> thinking of just going with all 256's. What do you think?
>
> Mucho gracias!
> --
> Slacker

I used the Permatex anti seize lubricant. 8 oz. for \$6.00 at an auto parts store.

258's long is better than short. Ask your dealer to double check the spoke length and nipple size.

Use Alloy nipples.

14/15 spokes http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#spokes

Disk wheels? check here: http://www.tech-mavic.com/uk/produits/vtt/j_xcountry.htm

--
DTW .../\.../\.../\...

I've spent most of my money on mountain biking and windsurfing. The rest I've just wasted.

6. ### Technician Guest

In article <[email protected]>, slacker7 @sbcglobal.net says...
> > > Slacker wrote:
> > > > Just a few:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke prep?"
> > > >
> > > > 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight gage spokes?
> > > >
> > > > 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel set.....correct?
> > > >
> > > > 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?
> > > >
> > > > Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
> > > >
> > > > Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9
> > > >
> > > > So, according to Mr. Brandt, one should use spokes within 1mm of the calculated size. This
> > > > means that I should use 256's for
> all
> > > > except the Lr, which should be 258. But, rather than buying a box of 50 for just 18 spokes
> > > > and for the sake of simplicity,
> I'm
> > > > thinking of just going with all 256's. What do you think?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mucho gracias!
> > > > --
> > > > Slacker
> > > >
> > > >
> > > front - the 256's look fine. i'm a little worried you came out with different sizes! should be
> > > the same if the hub is symetrical. i'd use the brass nipples hte increase in weight is only a
> > > couple onces. the increase in strenght is considerable. the only thing about staight gage
> > > spokes is they don't rap up as much. go with butted if you wish just be more carefull on the
> > > build. use boiled linseed oil - best spoke prep made *ever*. grease the rim spoke holes. i
> > > don't know what your hub is but it just don't look right! are you sure you got the hub
> > > measurement right! if you did go 256 all the way around.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Just a thought, do disk hubs have a different dish, and thus a different spoke length? (really
> > reaching for this one)
> > --
> > ~Travis
>
>
> Actually Travis, you right on the money. There is an off-set to accommodate the extra width for
> the rotor interface.
> --
> Slacker
>
>
>

Hey, i was right, eat this Penny

<ducks behind Slacker> he he
--
~Travis

7. ### Slacker Guest

> > > > > Just a few:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke prep?"
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight gage spokes?
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel set.....correct?
> > > > >
> > > > > 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
> > > > >
> > > > > Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9
> > > > >
> > > > > So, according to Mr. Brandt, one should use spokes within 1mm of the calculated size. This
> > > > > means that I should use 256's
for
> > all
> > > > > except the Lr, which should be 258. But, rather than buying a box of 50 for just 18 spokes
> > > > > and for the sake of
simplicity,
> > I'm
> > > > > thinking of just going with all 256's. What do you think?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Mucho gracias!
> > > > > --
> > > > > Slacker
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > front - the 256's look fine. i'm a little worried you came out with different sizes! should
> > > > be the same if the hub is symetrical. i'd use the brass nipples hte increase in weight is
> > > > only a couple onces. the increase in strenght is considerable. the only thing about staight
> > > > gage spokes is they don't rap up as much. go with butted if you wish just be more carefull
> > > > on the build. use boiled linseed oil - best spoke prep made *ever*. grease the rim spoke
> > > > holes. i don't know what your hub is but it just don't look right! are you sure you got the
> > > > hub measurement right! if you did go 256 all the way around.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Just a thought, do disk hubs have a different dish, and thus a different spoke length? (really
> > > reaching for this one)
> > > --
> > > ~Travis
> >
> >
> > Actually Travis, you right on the money. There is an off-set to accommodate the extra width for
> > the rotor interface.
> > --
> > Slacker
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Hey, i was right, eat this Penny
>
> <ducks behind Slacker> he he
> --
> ~Travis

hehehe!
--
Slacker

8. ### Michael Dart Guest

"Slacker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Just a few:
>
> 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke
prep?"
>

Yes. Heck I just use grease.

> 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight
gage spokes?

Doesn't matter. I used double butted the first set I built (XC) and it turned out fine.

>
> 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel
set.....correct?

Yes. Use brass. Black if you want, but it gets all scratched off anyway.

>
> 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?

Hmmm... I just used the ones that came with the spokes. 12mm I think.

>
> Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
>
> Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9

What hub you using? Need more info. For D321 rims and Hadley hubs I used 256 for all except 254 on
the drive side rear. 256 would've worked but that's what my 'dealer' gave me.

>
> So, according to Mr. Brandt, one should use spokes within 1mm of the
calculated size. This means that I should use 256's for all
> except the Lr, which should be 258. But, rather than buying a box of 50
for just 18 spokes and for the sake of simplicity, I'm
> thinking of just going with all 256's. What do you think?
>
>
> Mucho gracias!
> --
> Slacker

9. ### Slacker Guest

"Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Slacker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Just a few:
> >
> > 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke
> prep?"
> >
>
> Yes. Heck I just use grease.

Killer!

> > 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight
> gage spokes?
>
> Doesn't matter. I used double butted the first set I built (XC) and it turned out fine.

Don't tempt me because I'll do it ;^ 0

> > 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel
> set.....correct?
>
> Yes. Use brass. Black if you want, but it gets all scratched off anyway.

Alright, brass it is.

> > 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?
>
> Hmmm... I just used the ones that came with the spokes. 12mm I think.

Just saw from DTW's Mavic link that Mavic says 12mm.

> > Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
> >
> > Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9
>
> What hub you using? Need more info. For D321 rims and Hadley hubs I used 256 for all except 254 on
> the drive side rear. 256 would've worked but that's what my 'dealer' gave me.

10. ### Michael Dart Guest

"Slacker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Slacker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Just a few:
> > >
> > > 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke
> > prep?"
> > >
> >
> > Yes. Heck I just use grease.
>
>
> Killer!

It's proper tension that holds the nipples in place. Grease just keeps 'em from seizing up.

>
>
> > > 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use
straight
> > gage spokes?
> >
> > Doesn't matter. I used double butted the first set I built (XC) and it turned out fine.
>
>
> Don't tempt me because I'll do it ;^ 0

DB spokes are more durable because of the thinner elastic section in the middle reduces the stress
at the spoke shoulder and thread. Do it!!!!

>
>
> > > 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel
> > set.....correct?
> >
> > Yes. Use brass. Black if you want, but it gets all scratched off
anyway.
>
>
> Alright, brass it is.
>
>
> > > 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples
(D321rim)?
> >
> > Hmmm... I just used the ones that came with the spokes. 12mm I think.
>
>
> Just saw from DTW's Mavic link that Mavic says 12mm.
>
>
> > > Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
> > >
> > > Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9
> >
used
> > 256 for all except 254 on the drive side rear. 256 would've worked but that's what my 'dealer'
> > gave me.
>
>
> Yeah, I'm going with your same setup....D321 w/Hadley's front & rear.

256 all around an you will be set. You'll love 'em. Been good to me so far.

Mike

11. ### Penny S. Guest

Technician wrote:
>>> Just a thought, do disk hubs have a different dish, and thus a different spoke length? (really
>>> reaching for this one)
>>> --
>>> ~Travis
>>
>>
>> Actually Travis, you right on the money. There is an off-set to accommodate the extra width for
>> the rotor interface. -- Slacker
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Hey, i was right, eat this Penny
>
> <ducks behind Slacker> he he

but were you guessing?

(foam bricks I hope)

Penny

12. ### Dave Stocker Guest

"Slacker" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]...
> Just a few:
>
> 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke
prep?"
>
> 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight
gage spokes?
>
> 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel
set.....correct?
>
> 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?
>
> Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
>
> Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9
>
> So, according to Mr. Brandt, one should use spokes within 1mm of the
calculated size. This means that I should use 256's for all
> except the Lr, which should be 258. But, rather than buying a box of 50
for just 18 spokes and for the sake of simplicity, I'm
> thinking of just going with all 256's. What do you think?
>
>
> Mucho gracias!
> --
> Slacker
>
>

Jobst Brandt tends to be resident over on rec.bicycles.tech, so why not just ask him?

-Dave

13. ### James Connell Guest

Dave Stocker wrote:

>>
>
>
> Jobst Brandt tends to be resident over on rec.bicycles.tech, so why not just ask him?
>
> -Dave
>
>
because brandt is a jackass and very wrong about wheels (and most else), he just wrote a book that
convinced you fools he's right

14. ### James Connell Guest

Slacker wrote:
>
>
> Actually Travis, you right on the money. There is an off-set to accommodate the extra width for
> the rotor interface.
> --
> Slacker
>
>
trust me about the lindseed oil, best most durable build you can ask for.

15. ### B A R R Y B U R Guest

Slacker wrote:
>
> Just a few:
>
> 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke prep?"

I've used Spoke Prep, Park grease, generic white grease, dinosaur oil, linseed oil, or whatever else
I had around with good results.

>
> 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight gage spokes?

No big deal, use what you want and take your time. If you get frustrated, walk away and
continue later.

> 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel set.....correct?

I prefer brass, as they are easier to get up to the tension I like without problems.

> Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
>
> Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9

I'd use 256's and 257's on the rear. Does your front have some sort of offset? If so, I'd use 256's
and 257's in the front. If not, I'd use 256's on both sides of the front.

Barry

16. ### B A R R Y B U R Guest

James Connell wrote:
>
> Dave Stocker wrote:
>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Jobst Brandt tends to be resident over on rec.bicycles.tech, so why not just ask him?
> >
> > -Dave
> >
> >
> because brandt is a jackass and very wrong about wheels (and most else), he just wrote a book that
> convinced you fools he's right

Actually, I think he gets tired of answering the same old questions from people who have read
neither his book 'nor the FAQ.

His wheel advice has certainly worked for me.

Barry

17. ### Technician Guest

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Technician wrote:
> >>> Just a thought, do disk hubs have a different dish, and thus a different spoke length? (really
> >>> reaching for this one)
> >>> --
> >>> ~Travis
> >>
> >>
> >> Actually Travis, you right on the money. There is an off-set to accommodate the extra width for
> >> the rotor interface. -- Slacker
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Hey, i was right, eat this Penny
> >
> > <ducks behind Slacker> he he
>
> but were you guessing?
>
> (foam bricks I hope)
>
> Penny
>
>
>

I have built one wheel in my life, and i'm surer there is something wrong with it, though it
hasn't collapsed yet. So yes, i was guessing. for all i knew, the disk interface didn't take up
any extra room.
--
~Travis

18. ### David Kunz Guest

Slacker wrote:
> Just a few:
>
> 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke prep?"

Oil, grease, anything but lock-tite or spoke prep -- these make it harder to true-up the rim later.
Proper tensioning's what holds the spokes. People that use locking compounds are making up for a

> 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight gage spokes?

I've built with both and didn't notice any real difference with the straight gague. I'd go
double butted.

> 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel set.....correct?

Aluminum nipples will corrode to the spokes over time making later truing a nightmare, are weaker,
and may strip (the wrenching faces, not the threads) when you're trying to bring the wheel up to
full tension. Go with brass.

> 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?

du'no. I just get 'em from my LBS .

> Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
>
> Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9
>
> So, according to Mr. Brandt, one should use spokes within 1mm of the calculated size. This means
> that I should use 256's for all except the Lr, which should be 258. But, rather than buying a box
> of 50 for just 18 spokes and for the sake of simplicity, I'm thinking of just going with all
> 256's. What do you think?

The left rear will not have as much tension because of offset/dish -- so it's probably ok. UNLESS,
you're a clydesdale -- in which case, I'd bite the bullet.

BTW, my LBS will sell me spokes individually. Probably not for as good a price as I could get
online, but it may be worth it for these 18 spokes (16 + spares).

David

19. ### Mark Hickey Guest

"Slacker" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Just a few:
>
>1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke prep?"

Yep, but like others said, boiled linseed oil works well. It lubes when it's liquid like oil, sets
up to provide some small measure (more than is needed if you build the wheel correctly) of "spoke
prep functionality", and will stay in the threads to keep them from gunking up with nasty stuff.

>2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight gage spokes?

Doesn't matter much - just don't use really thin butted spokes (with center sections that are 1.5mm
thick). Here's my favorite wheelbuilding hint: mark each spoke with a black felt tip near the nipple
after you lace the wheel, but before you begin tensioning it. That way, you can see any spoke windup
that occurs and compensate (turn the spoke wrench further to get the proper turn on the nipple, then
rotate the mark back into place to remove the windup).

>3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No, especially for a DH wheel set.....correct?

Yep. They work OK, but are just more difficult to work with (especially a year or two from now).

>4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?

12mm is fine. The longer ones are for very deep dish rims.

>Lastly, according to DT's spoke calc here are the sizes I need:
>
> Left rear = 257.3 Right rear = 255.8 Left front = 256 Right front = 256.9
>
>So, according to Mr. Brandt, one should use spokes within 1mm of the calculated size. This means
>that I should use 256's for all except the Lr, which should be 258. But, rather than buying a box
>of 50 for just 18 spokes and for the sake of simplicity, I'm thinking of just going with all 256's.
>What do you think?

You would probably get away with it. 1.3mm isn't really much of a difference (the worst case).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the \$695 ti frame

20. ### Chris Phillipo Guest

> > just be more carefull on the build. use boiled linseed oil - best spoke prep made *ever*. grease
> > the rim spoke holes. i don't know what your hub is but it just don't look right! are you sure
> > you got the hub measurement right! if you did go 256 all the way around.
> >
> >
>
> Just a thought, do disk hubs have a different dish, and thus a different spoke length? (really
> reaching for this one)
>
Yes.
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Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com