Wheel building questions....

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Slacker, May 15, 2003.

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  1. In article <[email protected]>, "B a r r y B u r k e J r ." <"keep it in the newsgroup
    "@thankyou.com> says...
    > James Connell wrote:
    > >
    > > Dave Stocker wrote:
    > >
    > > >>
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Jobst Brandt tends to be resident over on rec.bicycles.tech, so why not just ask him?
    > > >
    > > > -Dave
    > > >
    > > >
    > > because brandt is a jackass and very wrong about wheels (and most else), he just wrote a book
    > > that convinced you fools he's right
    >
    > Actually, I think he gets tired of answering the same old questions from people who have read
    > neither his book 'nor the FAQ.
    >
    > His wheel advice has certainly worked for me.
    >
    > Barry
    >

    He will call you a retard for using spoke prep though, because it's a "crutch of the inept". I use
    it now just to piss him off.
    --
    _________________________
    Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
     


  2. "Slacker" <[email protected]>
    > 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke prep?"

    use a LUBE, any lube will do..... Grease, motor-oil, whateve.. Do NOT use "spoke prep" as it is a
    thread-locking coumpund

    > 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight gage spokes?

    Only if you are worried about "wind-up" but htis insa non-issue if you are "stress-releiving"

    > 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No,

    yup

    > 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?

    Ask the Rim Mfg.

    <SNIP>

    <not touching spoke lenght calculations;-> my advice is whnever posible use the same lenght spoke
    it's easy to get confused when lacing up ;-)
     
  3. James Connell <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    > because brandt is a jackass and very wrong about wheels (and most else), he just wrote a book that
    > convinced you fools he's right

    Doesn't matter to me if Jobst is the most unpleasant person in the world, his book it pure genius.
    The one thing that amazes me is how much baloney mythology there is out there about wheelbuilding
    being some sort of mystical art. It isn't. It's science and craft. That's the beauty of Jobst's
    little book.

    CC
     
  4. Reco Diver

    Reco Diver Guest

    James Connell <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Dave Stocker wrote:
    >
    > >>
    > >
    > >
    > > Jobst Brandt tends to be resident over on rec.bicycles.tech, so why not just ask him?
    > >
    > > -Dave
    > >
    > >
    > because brandt is a jackass

    Wow you catch on quick.

    > and very wrong about wheels (and most else),

    You obviously have never worked with the man.

    > he just wrote a book that convinced you fools he's right

    Actually, I believe he wrote the book because Bud, Neil, and Ronny Haffacker as well as the
    employees at Avocet and PAB asked him to do so.

    http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/s21.html

    That's Jobst in the orange (~1976). I think JD stole his hair.

    R
     
  5. On Fri, 16 May 2003 11:50:37 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

    >He will call you a retard for using spoke prep though, because it's a "crutch of the inept". I use
    >it now just to piss him off.

    LOL.

    How do you make sure that he knows? A picture, maybe a video?

    Jobst certainly knows engineering/wheel, etc. shit but his MTB understanding is a bit off in some
    respects. See discussion years ago about Mt. Tam having terrain that is as challenging as any in the
    world and describing Bolinas Ridge as difficult.
     
  6. Corvus Corvax wrote:
    > James Connell <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    >>because brandt is a jackass and very wrong about wheels (and most else), he just wrote a book that
    >>convinced you fools he's right
    >
    >
    > Doesn't matter to me if Jobst is the most unpleasant person in the world, his book it pure genius.
    > The one thing that amazes me is how much baloney mythology there is out there about wheelbuilding
    > being some sort of mystical art. It isn't. It's science and craft. That's the beauty of Jobst's
    > little book.
    >
    > CC

    his book is mostly BULLSHIT. the whole thing can be boiled down to 3 pages (at most). while you
    don't need to sacrifice a goat to build wheels, you don't need his book either, what you do need is
    a tensiometer. if you follow his directions you end up with a wheel with far to much tension in it.
    brant passes himself off as an 'expert' witness to lawers for bike related court cases so he *needs*
    a book to give him some type of credibility. why as recently as 3 years ago he was advacating motor
    oil as all the lube a chain needed. my personal favorite is 'don't tighten crank bolts', then he
    turns around and tells a poster that if the crank comes loose it's ruined. i realy like the logic if
    the bolt gets loose don't tighten it until the arm comes off then you need another one. BULLSHIT
     
  7. Technician

    Technician Guest

    > ...what you do need is a tensiometer.

    I managed to do it without one. just tensioned it to the "tune" of my LBS built wheel, and trued.
    has yet to fold, break, taco, or even creak.
    --
    ~Travis

    travis57 at megalink dot net http://www.megalink.net/~farmers/
     
  8. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    Hi, John...

    [email protected] (ClydesdaleMTB) wrote:

    >"Slacker" <[email protected]>
    >> 1. Can grease like Bel Ray's Assembly Lube be used in place of "spoke prep?"
    >
    >use a LUBE, any lube will do..... Grease, motor-oil, whateve.. Do NOT use "spoke prep" as it is a
    >thread-locking coumpund
    >
    >
    >> 2. Being this will be my very first time, is it wiser to just use straight gage spokes?
    >
    >Only if you are worried about "wind-up" but htis insa non-issue if you are "stress-releiving"

    FYI - I think you're confusing "stress relieving" with "untensioning the wheel to take the windup
    out" (by pressing down on the rim with the hub high-centered). That DOES take the windup out (though
    somewhat dangerously), but doesn't stress relieve the spokes. That's done by grabbing the parallel
    spokes and squeezing the crap outa'em. That cycles the tension MUCH higher than the static tension
    (which is highest when the wheels not being ridden). This causes the microscopic faults in the spoke
    to start to propogate - then when you release the extra tension, the stress riser is no longer there
    since it takes more tension than is available to continue the rupture. Voila, no more busted spokes.

    Cheers, Mark "Jobst wannabee?" Hickey

    >> 3. Aluminum nipples are a No-No,
    >
    >yup
    >
    >
    >> 4. How do you figure out whether you need 12mm or 16mm nipples (D321rim)?
    >
    >Ask the Rim Mfg.
    >
    >
    >
    ><SNIP>
    >
    ><not touching spoke lenght calculations;-> my advice is whnever posible use the same lenght spoke
    >it's easy to get confused when lacing up ;-)
     
  9. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    James Connell <[email protected]> wrote:

    >his book is mostly BULLSHIT. the whole thing can be boiled down to 3 pages (at most).

    Well, that WOULD save publishing costs, but I think you have missed a lot of the value in the book.

    >while you don't need to sacrifice a goat to build wheels, you don't need his book either, what you
    >do need is a tensiometer.

    Why? They're notoriously inaccurate anyway. If you follow the Jobst method of tensioning a wheel,
    you really don't need the tensionometer. In fact, you can do a better job making sure the spokes are
    at an even tension by plucking them (if you do a really good job and start with a true rim, the
    spokes will all be within about one note in pitch).

    > if you follow his directions you end up with a wheel with far to much tension in it.

    ???? Not if you do it right.

    > brant passes himself off as an 'expert' witness to lawers for bike related court cases so he
    > *needs* a book to give him some type of credibility. why as recently as 3 years ago he was
    > advacating motor oil as all the lube a chain needed. my personal favorite is 'don't tighten crank
    > bolts', then he turns around and tells a poster that if the crank comes loose it's ruined. i realy
    > like the logic if the bolt gets loose don't tighten it until the arm comes off then you need
    > another one. BULLSHIT

    Again, Jobst is right. The point you missed is that his advice is to install the crank properly and
    THEN you don't have to tighten it again (and again). If a crank gets loose, it simply wasn't
    installed properly.

    Jobst's book isn't perfect, but it's by far the best one out there on the subject of bicycle wheels.
    And FWIW, I've found it to be spot on when it comes to building reliable wheels.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  10. > his book is mostly BULLSHIT. the whole thing can be boiled down to 3 pages (at most). while you
    > don't need to sacrifice a goat to build wheels, you don't need his book either, what you do need
    > is a tensiometer. if you follow his directions you end up with a wheel with far to much tension in
    > it. brant passes himself off as an 'expert' witness to lawers for bike related court cases so he
    > *needs* a book to give him some type of credibility. why as recently as 3 years ago he was
    > advacating motor oil as all the lube a chain needed. my personal favorite is 'don't tighten crank
    > bolts', then he turns around and tells a poster that if the crank comes loose it's ruined. i realy
    > like the logic if the bolt gets loose don't tighten it until the arm comes off then you need
    > another one. BULLSHIT
    >
    >

    I found the 2 pages in Bicycling Magazine's Guide to Bicycle Repair that described how to build a
    wheel to be much easier to follow than that coffee table leveler.
    --
    _________________________
    Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
     
  11. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > James Connell <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >his book is mostly BULLSHIT. the whole thing can be boiled down to 3 pages (at most).
    >
    > Well, that WOULD save publishing costs, but I think you have missed a lot of the value in
    > the book.
    >
    > >while you don't need to sacrifice a goat to build wheels, you don't need his book either, what
    > >you do need is a tensiometer.
    >
    > Why? They're notoriously inaccurate anyway. If you follow the Jobst method of tensioning a wheel,
    > you really don't need the tensionometer. In fact, you can do a better job making sure the spokes
    > are at an even tension by plucking them (if you do a really good job and start with a true rim,
    > the spokes will all be within about one note in pitch).
    >

    The Jobst method? My my, he has brainwashed quite a following hasn't he. He didn't invent anything
    in that book.

    --
    _________________________
    Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
     
  12. James Connell <[email protected]> wrote
    > brant passes himself off as an 'expert' witness to lawers for bike related court cases so he
    > *needs* a book to give him some type of credibility.

    Wow. I'm certainly convinced of your objectivity.

    > why as recently as 3 years ago he was advacating motor oil as all the lube a chain needed.

    Probably true, althouth I prefer something a little lighter. I'm still a Tri-Flo kinda guy.

    > my personal favorite is 'don't tighten crank bolts',

    If you mean "don't continue to repeatedly tighten crank bolts on square-taper cranks, because you'll
    ruin them," this is advice I have also seen elsewhere. It makes perfect sense.

    Ah, well. Buh-bye.

    CC
     
  13. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

    >[email protected] says...

    >> Why? They're notoriously inaccurate anyway. If you follow the Jobst method of tensioning a wheel,
    >> you really don't need the tensionometer. In fact, you can do a better job making sure the spokes
    >> are at an even tension by plucking them (if you do a really good job and start with a true rim,
    >> the spokes will all be within about one note in pitch).
    >
    >The Jobst method? My my, he has brainwashed quite a following hasn't he. He didn't invent anything
    >in that book.

    He wrote that book so long ago, I'm not sure what techniques are his, and which he gleaned from
    others - and I guess I don't care. Thing is, wheel building was regarded as a black art when he
    wrote the book, and 95% of the "accepted wisdom" was simply wrong. Things like "spokes wearing out",
    "tying and soldering", "the need for spoke prep", etc.

    Whether or not he invented his methodology is irrelevant to how robust the wheels built using it
    are. The book goes WAY beyond what most cyclists want to know (or need to know), but it's still the
    reference on the subject. IMHO

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
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