wheel inertia tests



bicycledisciple

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Nov 23, 2007
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We tested a few wheels using the pendulum test described on analytic
cycling. Wheels tested were HED Jets, FSA rd 600, campy proton etc.

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2007/11/wheel-rotational-inertia-testing-1.html

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2007/11/wheel-rotational-inertia-testing-part-2.html

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2007/11/wheel-rotational-inertia-testing-part-3.html

If any tech heads are interested in a discussion of the results, shoot
ahead. I would like some input on how to better the testing. :)


Ciao,


B.D
 
bicycledisciple said:
If any tech heads are interested in a discussion of the results, shoot
ahead. I would like some input on how to better the testing. :) D

Do the math and you'll find that even when accelerating, a wheel's MOI makes very little difference.
 
alienator said:
Do the math and you'll find that even when accelerating, a wheel's MOI makes very little difference.
really? i'd like to find the math that pertains to accelaration of wheels alone.

I presume it is Torque = Moment of Inertia x Angular Accelaration? So for the same torque (same power and rpm), pluggin in different MOI can yield angular accelarations.


i stand by my claims that almost all high priced wheels today in the market have very little difference between them so when i talked about acceleration, i was comparing a super heavy wheelset with a superlight wheelset. again, i don't have numbers but i'm excited about using my calculator right now.

-B.D
 
bicycledisciple said:
really? i'd like to find the math that pertains to accelaration of wheels alone.

I presume it is Torque = Moment of Inertia x Angular Accelaration? So for the same torque (same power and rpm), pluggin in different MOI can yield angular accelarations.


i stand by my claims that almost all high priced wheels today in the market have very little difference between them so when i talked about acceleration, i was comparing a super heavy wheelset with a superlight wheelset. again, i don't have numbers but i'm excited about using my calculator right now.

-B.D

Then look here, at Mark McM's derivation of an equation of motion for a bicycle. The results clearly show that substantive changes in MOI make very small changes in acceleration.

Just because there is a difference doesn't mean there is a meaningful difference. I have a sensor that can measure spatial displacement to a resolution of 1.6 picometers; however, that doesn't mean that measurements done with that sensor can have an uncertainty that allows for that resolution.

My calculator will give me answers with 10 decimal places; however that doesnt mean that all of those decimal places are meaningful.

My current wheelset weighs 878g and has a lower MOI than my other wheelset, which weighs in at 1380g. I have yet to notice any significant differences in acceleration.
 
alienator said:
Then look here, at Mark McM's derivation of an equation of motion for a bicycle. The results clearly show that substantive changes in MOI make very small changes in acceleration.

Just because there is a difference doesn't mean there is a meaningful difference. I have a sensor that can measure spatial displacement to a resolution of 1.6 picometers; however, that doesn't mean that measurements done with that sensor can have an uncertainty that allows for that resolution.

My calculator will give me answers with 10 decimal places; however that doesnt mean that all of those decimal places are meaningful.

My current wheelset weighs 878g and has a lower MOI than my other wheelset, which weighs in at 1380g. I have yet to notice any significant differences in acceleration.
I have a question for you.

The apparent mass of an accelarating wheel is higher (certainly higher, but the magnitude is debatable) than that of a constants-speed wheel.

How can one calculate the apparent mass?

Is it Apparent Mass = Static Mass + [MOI/(RADIUS^2)]

Am I right here? That would make sense because Ratio of Apparent Mass to Static Mass would lie anywhere from 1.4 to 1.8. A value tending more towards 2.0 means that all the mass is concentrated on the rim on the wheel. For the wheels we all ride, this can't be really possible, and the difference between wheels are probably neglegable. Please correct me here.
 
alienator said:
wow! good post.

I just wanna get on my soapbox again.....

Not only is external weight on a bike total bollocks, much of the weight from light wheelsets is now being stripped from the hubs, and the rims are still chunky by Weight Weenies standards, especially the clinchers! The Zipp 417 Mid-V is 544g, the 505 Deep-V is 606g, and the 520 Deep-V is 607g! Even the full-carbon 360 Deep-V Tubular is 392g; only a few grams lighter than an Open Pro or a DT RR1.1. Similar for other brands of deep rims.

For what it's worth, I've tried light Ksyriums on 3 occasions (ES, or something), which were about 700g lighter than my trusty old 32-spokers, and the Mavics felt slower to me coz I thought they were flexy. I even undid the front brake quick-release for a bit coz I thought the pads were rubbing.

I'm no scientician, but it seems to me that most of the maths ignores the fact that the tyre is stuck firmly to the road by 150 to 200+ pounds of rider, so I can't understand how a wheel can suddenly start 'spinning up' if a measly few hundred grams are taken from the rim. I reckon it would only make a difference if the bike is on a trainer with very little resistance.

A good club rider puts out about, what, 1200 watts or less in a 'stomp' (more for a final sprint -- par 4: http://www.carnegiecycling.com.au/c=Reports&p=M_Report_db&rid=1161 )
? If he's 70kg, that's only 17w/kg, which is like my 6-cyl 1800kg sedan having a 1-cyl, 30kw engine.

A cyclist has the relative acceleration of a backhoe tractor trawling through 2-feet-deep mud.

Also, in world track events, where bad acceleration can lose a rider a gold medal, many of them use the heavy disc and tri-spoke combo. The Mavic Comete Track is listed at 980g, so it's probably heavier in the real world
 
531Aussie said:
wow! good post.

I just wanna get on my soapbox again.....

Not only is external weight on a bike total bollocks, much of the weight from light wheelsets is now being stripped from the hubs, and the rims are still chunky by Weight Weenies standards, especially the clinchers! The Zipp 417 Mid-V is 544g, the 505 Deep-V is 606g, and the 520 Deep-V is 607g! Even the full-carbon 360 Deep-V Tubular is 392g; only a few grams lighter than an Open Pro or a DT RR1.1. Similar for other brands of deep rims.

For what it's worth, I've tried light Ksyriums on 3 occasions (ES, or something), which were about 700g lighter than my trusty old 32-spokers, and the Mavics felt slower to me coz I thought they were flexy. I even undid the front brake quick-release for a bit coz I thought the pads were rubbing.

I'm no scientician, but it seems to me that most of the maths ignores the fact that the tyre is stuck firmly to the road by 150 to 200+ pounds of rider, so I can't understand how a wheel can suddenly start 'spinning up' if a measly few hundred grams are taken from the rim. I reckon it would only make a difference if the bike is on a trainer with very little resistance.

A good club rider puts out about, what, 1200 watts or less in a 'stomp' (more for a final sprint -- par 4: http://www.carnegiecycling.com.au/c=Reports&p=M_Report_db&rid=1161 )
? If he's 70kg, that's only 17w/kg, which is like my 6-cyl 1800kg sedan having a 1-cyl, 30kw engine.

A cyclist has the relative acceleration of a backhoe tractor trawling through 2-feet-deep mud.

Also, in world track events, where bad acceleration can lose a rider a gold medal, many of them use the heavy disc and tri-spoke combo. The Mavic Comete Track is listed at 980g, so it's probably heavier in the real world
Yes very true. The cyclist typically has an accelaration of a snail.

No , I believe all this rotational weight is junk science. There is some truth to it, but you're dealing with such small numbers that its hardly practical to think about that when buying a wheel or thinking about reducing weight in general. Besides a slightly medium-ish weight aerodynamic wheel will, in my opinion, be far better than 3000 dollar carbon hoops that have low spoke count and will fatigue out earlier than you expect it for that price. When you're on the bleeding edge of technology, you have to pay a price and that's durability and safety. I don't want to recount the story of how a friend of mine almost lost his life when his high end ZIPP's cracked in two...

Ron
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com
 
bicycledisciple said:
No , I believe all this rotational weight is junk science. There is some truth to it, but you're dealing with such small numbers that its hardly practical to think about that when buying a wheel or thinking about reducing weight in general. Besides a slightly medium-ish weight aerodynamic wheel will, in my opinion, be far better than 3000 dollar carbon hoops that have low spoke count and will fatigue out earlier than you expect it for that price. When you're on the bleeding edge of technology, you have to pay a price and that's durability and safety. I don't want to recount the story of how a friend of mine almost lost his life when his high end ZIPP's cracked in two...

While I agree that differences in MOI are insignificant in almost all cases, the topic of MOI in bicycle wheels isn't junk science, rather it's misunderstood science. By misunderstood, I mean that people forget to also look at the context of those differential values. For a racer, whether he/she is pro or not, it may well be worth it to get those lower MOI wheels. When racing, it's normal to grab every advantage you can, even if that advantage is whisper thin. Junk science is stuff like Intelligent Design or all those inventions whose creators say run on perpetual energy.

I also think you're overstating the fragile nature of CF wheels. In fact, I don't think that fragile nature necessarily exists at all. As with any relatively new application for a material, there is always worry and doubt. CF wheels, however, have proven themselves to be quite durable. Granted, Zipp had an issue with some wheels, but after changing the layup on those wheels, the issue has been resolved.

The bleeding edge does not mean that you have to accept a lower level of durability or less safety. If that is truly the case, then there is a designer/engineer doing a very poor job. In recent years, more bicycle companies have brought high level engineering and analysis to bear on their design process. As a result, the new, cutting edge products are becoming durable, as well as light. Sure, they're expensive, but that's to be expected of anything on the "bleeding edge."

Reading through your blog, I think you make the mistake of generalizing about a material a few times. For instance, when you mention the CF impregnated rubber drive belt, you hint at decreased durability as a result of CF in the belt. However, Harley Davidson's drive belts, made the same way, set a new standard for durability....which is quite a change for that company.

Failures in the past, with CF products for cycling have largely been the result of poor design, poor engineering, and a poor understanding of a relatively new material. Sure there are still a few folks making CF stuff without a real good understanding of the material, and there are a few companies possibly cutting corners. Those cases though are the exceptions.

As with bicycle frames, it's best to not weigh the material something is constructed from too heavily. Material is far from the top of the list of important considerations in a good product.

Also, please don't run your tubies at 10psi under max inflation on descents/fast descents. Traction is your friend when corners come fast, and having an adequate contact patch insures that traction. Rolling tubies off the rim is the unusual case.
 
alienator said:
While I agree that differences in MOI are insignificant in almost all cases, the topic of MOI in bicycle wheels isn't junk science, rather it's misunderstood science. By misunderstood, I mean that people forget to also look at the context of those differential values. For a racer, whether he/she is pro or not, it may well be worth it to get those lower MOI wheels. When racing, it's normal to grab every advantage you can, even if that advantage is whisper thin. Junk science is stuff like Intelligent Design or all those inventions whose creators say run on perpetual energy.

Bike Companies exaggerate such parameters to create junk science. Ofcourse, today the average consumer doesn't have the time or energy to think a little about these things , and they're easily fallen to thinking top end CF wheels and frames are everything. Wrong.

I also think you're overstating the fragile nature of CF wheels. In fact, I don't think that fragile nature necessarily exists at all. As with any relatively new application for a material, there is always worry and doubt. CF wheels, however, have proven themselves to be quite durable. Granted, Zipp had an issue with some wheels, but after changing the layup on those wheels, the issue has been resolved.

CF is fragile, infact more brittle than glass and this becomes a bigger problem with HM and UHM fibres.

The bleeding edge does not mean that you have to accept a lower level of durability or less safety. If that is truly the case, then there is a designer/engineer doing a very poor job. In recent years, more bicycle companies have brought high level engineering and analysis to bear on their design process. As a result, the new, cutting edge products are becoming durable, as well as light. Sure, they're expensive, but that's to be expected of anything on the "bleeding edge."

A good designer can work around the challenges offered by materials. But how good is good? We don't see or know who designs the CF frame that we descend at 60 mph on... Infact, working with CF can be done by any fool, its really easy if you have the patience and time. Much easier than welding or brazing, and so gone are the times when you can get a good lugged frame that will last your life and costs not that much.
Besides, CF is expensive because its hard to acquire. Its expensive because the molds are expensive, and so on...

Today consumerism has taken a drastic turn and nothing we buy can last us 3-4 years, everything gets worthless or is outdated. So true in cycling. Bike companies are out to fool some of us with their junk science.

Reading through your blog, I think you make the mistake of generalizing about a material a few times. For instance, when you mention the CF impregnated rubber drive belt, you hint at decreased durability as a result of CF in the belt. However, Harley Davidson's drive belts, made the same way, set a new standard for durability....which is quite a change for that company.

Use of belt depends on the application. In some areas, it works better than others. I don't think Harley Davidson has 3 rings up front and 10 cogs in the rear, a good old roller chain that has been around for 100+ years does power transmission on such a mech better than anything else out there. Its efficiency is 96-98%. A CF belt has very little application in bicycles right now, in fact only practical in a single speed system.

Failures in the past, with CF products for cycling have largely been the result of poor design, poor engineering, and a poor understanding of a relatively new material. Sure there are still a few folks making CF stuff without a real good understanding of the material, and there are a few companies possibly cutting corners. Those cases though are the exceptions.

As with bicycle frames, it's best to not weigh the material something is constructed from too heavily. Material is far from the top of the list of important considerations in a good product.

You are right here. Design comes first, than materials. I'd probably buy a CF frame from a highly reputed company, but also think of the cost vs. benefit. With high end frames, everything in the design is optimised for performance and nothing beyond or below that since thats a wastage of resources, sacrifices performance and also ups the cost. Thats what I mean by bleeding edge, its on the edge, durability of such products is highly debatable.

Also, please don't run your tubies at 10psi under max inflation on descents/fast descents. Traction is your friend when corners come fast, and having an adequate contact patch insures that traction. Rolling tubies off the rim is the unusual case.
This was expert opinion from rec.bicycles.tech usenet group, not my own. Besides, letting out 10 psi from 110 to make it 100 is much much safer vs. the little traction you'll lose as you say. Did you know on hot days air expands? Air is not simply sitting there in the tire, many many things are happening to it depending on external conditions. The question is, do you want that extra 10 psi or do you want to fracture your hip, break your collarbone, or possibly die.

Ron
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com
 
bicycledisciple said:
This was expert opinion from rec.bicycles.tech usenet group, not my own. Besides, letting out 10 psi from 110 to make it 100 is much much safer vs. the little traction you'll lose as you say. Did you know on hot days air expands? Air is not simply sitting there in the tire, many many things are happening to it depending on external conditions. The question is, do you want that extra 10 psi or do you want to fracture your hip, break your collarbone, or possibly die.

Ron
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

It'd be helpful if you actually put some numbers to your "claims." You assume quite a lot about materials, which is a classic error. A material's properties are important only in how they drive a design and in how they are used to integrate that material in a given structure. Saying or inferring that CF is bad for wheels because it is "more brittle than glass" is stupid on its face and completely ignorant of that material's behavior in a given design.

Expert opinion from a usenet group, eh? Wow. That's impressive. Also impressive is your little "air heats up" snipe. Very impressive. I guess we know everything about you that needs to be known. Do a view technical descents and then get back to us when you actually have some knowledge, Cupcake. While you're at it, you should try brushing up on some scientific and engineering principles. Granted, all knowledge necessary for mankind's advancement can be copied from a usenet group, but it's still useful to actually have a working understanding of such things yourself.
 
alienator said:
It'd be helpful if you actually put some numbers to your "claims." You assume quite a lot about materials, which is a classic error. A material's properties are important only in how they drive a design and in how they are used to integrate that material in a given structure. Saying or inferring that CF is bad for wheels because it is "more brittle than glass" is stupid on its face and completely ignorant of that material's behavior in a given design.

Expert opinion from a usenet group, eh? Wow. That's impressive. Also impressive is your little "air heats up" snipe. Very impressive. I guess we know everything about you that needs to be known. Do a view technical descents and then get back to us when you actually have some knowledge, Cupcake. While you're at it, you should try brushing up on some scientific and engineering principles. Granted, all knowledge necessary for mankind's advancement can be copied from a usenet group, but it's still useful to actually have a working understanding of such things yourself.

Alienator,

I think science has alientated you somewhat.

Here's a lesson in Thermodynamics. Charles law applies to a gas. With higher temperature, air expands, which also increases tire pressure. This is a fundamental law so you not knowing this tells me enough about your ignorance.

I have seen enough OCLV carbon forks snap and CF material under clamps cracking to know durability of CF, thank you. Granted my area is not blessed with high technical descents, but I know close friends who attest to the fact that if you touch your rims after a long tricky descent, it'll be hotter than when you left.
 
Expert opinion from a usenet group, eh? Wow. That's impressive. Also impressive is your little "air heats up" snipe. Very impressive. I guess we know everything about you that needs to be known. Do a view technical descents and then get back to us when you actually have some knowledge, Cupcake. While you're at it, you should try brushing up on some scientific and engineering principles. Granted, all knowledge necessary for mankind's advancement can be copied from a usenet group, but it's still useful to actually have a working understanding of such things yourself.[/QUOTE]
You know very little about me to make such definite statements. Infact, I think folks like you have no place here, you bring your stupid dominance into potentially fruitful discussions and lead everything astray. Who are you, nitwit? Are you so brilliant that we should all come consult you?
 
bicycledisciple said:
Alienator,

I think science has alientated you somewhat.

Here's a lesson in Thermodynamics. Charles law applies to a gas. With higher temperature, air expands, which also increases tire pressure. This is a fundamental law so you not knowing this tells me enough about your ignorance.

I have seen enough OCLV carbon forks snap and CF material under clamps cracking to know durability of CF, thank you. Granted my area is not blessed with high technical descents, but I know close friends who attest to the fact that if you touch your rims after a long tricky descent, it'll be hotter than when you left.

Golly, you think so, Princess? Hmmm.

See, you point out the obvious without showing in any way whatsoever how quantitatively there is a need for said change. Now, see, I learned all about the thermodynamics thing in physics--and I got to see how it was dumbed down for engineers--so your little snipe, again, does make you appear really knowledgeable. However, you've only made some general claim without any proof whatsoever. So, dear Knowledgeable One, please show us how it is a worthwhile trade to inflate your tires to a pressure 10psi less than their max. Please show how the decrease in available traction will not be detrimental.

Then, please go on to show exactly how CF is bad for wheels and stuff. Please do so quantitatively, not with stories about your friends or what you read on the usenet or what you heard from someone else. Be careful, here, because there are folks who actually have a much better understanding than you of composites, and some of those folks are actually designing and producing composite wheels.

So far you've done little other than perpetuate cycling mythology. I'm a scientist, so please, entertain me with some actual data, relevant facts, or summat, not the stabs in the dark you've been making.
 
bicycledisciple said:
You know very little about me to make such definite statements. Infact, I think folks like you have no place here, you bring your stupid dominance into potentially fruitful discussions and lead everything astray. Who are you, nitwit? Are you so brilliant that we should all come consult you?

Well, you are the dumbass that made the comments re: air and it's response to thermal variations, as if you had some exlusive access to the knowledge. In fact, you did nothing but make some vague generalization. You did nothing empirical, nothing numerically, well, nothing at all.

I'll take your opinions about who belongs here and who doesn't under advisement and give them all the weight they deserve......which is none.
 
alienator said:
Golly, you think so, Princess? Hmmm.

See, you point out the obvious without showing in any way whatsoever how quantitatively there is a need for said change. Now, see, I learned all about the thermodynamics thing in physics--and I got to see how it was dumbed down for engineers--so your little snipe, again, does make you appear really knowledgeable. However, you've only made some general claim without any proof whatsoever. So, dear Knowledgeable One, please show us how it is a worthwhile trade to inflate your tires to a pressure 10psi less than their max. Please show how the decrease in available traction will not be detrimental.

Then, please go on to show exactly how CF is bad for wheels and stuff. Please do so quantitatively, not with stories about your friends or what you read on the usenet or what you heard from someone else. Be careful, here, because there are folks who actually have a much better understanding than you of composites, and some of those folks are actually designing and producing composite wheels.

So far you've done little other than perpetuate cycling mythology. I'm a scientist, so please, entertain me with some actual data, relevant facts, or summat, not the stabs in the dark you've been making.
If you give me some of those "funds" helping you in your extraordinary scientific work I'll give some results for you. In fact its easy for morons like you to take advantage of the fact that theres very little actual testing going on in bike products, the results are fairly hard to get...which explains your simplistic answer to "go bring numbers", which is sort of running away from the topic. With my current resources I have no possible means to produce "scientific results", but your highness if you point me to sources, I'll be happy. Right now I can only read what other experts have wrote on the subject, in books not just some crappy website. What have you produced? And I hardly know your credentials except your an anonymous bugger sitting somewhere on the opposite side of the line, so I'm not going to take you serious.

Case closed. Thanks for your expert opinion.
 
bicycledisciple said:
If you give me some of those "funds" helping you in your extraordinary scientific work I'll give some results for you. In fact its easy for morons like you to take advantage of the fact that theres very little actual testing going on in bike products, the results are fairly hard to get...which explains your simplistic answer to "go bring numbers", which is sort of running away from the topic. With my current resources I have no possible means to produce "scientific results", but your highness if you point me to sources, I'll be happy. Right now I can only read what other experts have wrote on the subject, in books not just some crappy website. What have you produced? And I hardly know your credentials except your an anonymous bugger sitting somewhere on the opposite side of the line, so I'm not going to take you serious.

Case closed. Thanks for your expert opinion.

Look up the relevant equations and see how the quantities of interest vary with changes in the relevant variables. If you can't do that, then you really suck as an engineer.

And what do we know about you, Princess? What? The stuff in your blog? Hell, that can be as fake as your ID when you're surfing the kiddie sites, trolling for a date.

I've seen nothing of your work. Never heard of you. And I've yet to see anything other than vague generalizations from you.
 
alienator said:
Well, you are the dumbass that made the comments re: air and it's response to thermal variations, as if you had some exlusive access to the knowledge. In fact, you did nothing but make some vague generalization. You did nothing empirical, nothing numerically, well, nothing at all.

I'll take your opinions about who belongs here and who doesn't under advisement and give them all the weight they deserve......which is none.
Okay, if you insist go eat this. Please read some of Chester Kyle's and E.Burke's papers on cycling equipment performance. Some of these same lectures were given to the society of automotive engineers. Since you're the great scientist, I hardly need to tell you where to get them from, since you'll know that too.
 
bicycledisciple said:
Okay, if you insist go eat this. Please read some of Chester Kyle's and E.Burke's papers on cycling equipment performance. Some of these same lectures were given to the society of automotive engineers. Since you're the great scientist, I hardly need to tell you where to get them from, since you'll know that too.


I guess you can't do it on your own, can you? Hmmm. Too bad. I guess we don't have to plan for any award ceremony for you in the future, do we?

FWIW, just because you referenced a couple of books doesn't mean you understand them. Maybe you should beat a hasty retreat and hide behind your safety factor.
 
alienator said:
Look up the relevant equations and see how the quantities of interest vary with changes in the relevant variables. If you can't do that, then you really suck as an engineer.

And what do we know about you, Princess? What? The stuff in your blog? Hell, that can be as fake as your ID when you're surfing the kiddie sites, trolling for a date.

I've seen nothing of your work. Never heard of you. And I've yet to see anything other than vague generalizations from you.

I think you have been shut up by the fact that I mentioned Charles Law. Do you nothing to counter this? There's been solid evidence and hundreds of experiments to prove that in practice before me, so why should I waste my time to prove it again, to satisfy an internet bugger like you.

Besides, my blog is not a haven for original scientific data, please read what the blog aims to do first instead of putting forth your scientific theories about what I SHOULD be doing with it... that's none of your business. The blog is a journal of my own learning, you start reading and thinking about technical material from other people, you can't just dig up things from your ass.
 

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