Wheel questions (many)

[dgk]

Ok, so the wheels on my budget Trek hybrid (7100) are showing signs of
age. First, the guy fixing the broken spoke said that they are in
fairly bad shape. I've put maybe 3000 miles on them in a year. Also, I
notice that the brakes are wearing grooves in the rims. They get a
fair amount of pounding on the streets.

So I started looking for replacements. Those seem to cost more than my
bike did.

Let's talk size first. I have 700c X 38 tires. So these might be ok:

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...and=&sku=14604&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=

or these, a little nicer perhaps:

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...and=&sku=14429&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=

Those both say hybrid but talk about 8 or 9 speed cassette. Mine is 7.
These talk 7 speed cassette, but might not be the correct size:

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...and=&sku=13814&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=

So, are those first two ok for my bike even though they don't mention
a 7 speed cassette? Are all road rims capable of handling 20 to 38
size tires? They look the same width.

I guess that I unhook the cassette from my current wheel and transfer
it over. Or maybe buy a nicer one? Since theft is an issue when
parking a bike in NYC all day, I don't mind having nice components on
an inexpensive model bike.

I think that I want to get a truing stand and work on my own wheels.
Good idea? Is a cheap one like this good?

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...rand=&sku=2076&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=

Ok, that will do for now.

 

[Art Harris]

dgk wrote:

> the wheels on my budget Trek hybrid (7100) are showing signs of
> age. First, the guy fixing the broken spoke said that they are in
> fairly bad shape. I've put maybe 3000 miles on them in a year.

How many total miles? What specifically do they mean when they say they
are in "bad shape." Unless the rims are dented, you should be able to
make these wheels road worthy. At worst, you could replace the rims.
I'm assuming you have stainless steel spokes. If they're zinc coated /
galvanized, then you probably should be looking for new wheels.

> I notice that the brakes are wearing grooves in the rims.

Your brake pads are picking up grit. The same same thing will happen if
you buy new wheels. Replace your brake pads with Kool Stop (Salmon)
Continentals.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html#continental

> Those both say hybrid but talk about 8 or 9 speed cassette. Mine is 7.

> So I started looking for replacements. Those seem to cost more than my bike did.

Your bike probably has 126 mm rear spacing, and these wheels have 130
mm spacing. If your frame is steel, you can spread the rear dropouts to
fit the new wheel. The front is no problem.

A cheap truing stand is ok. You don't really need anything fancy. A
dishing tool is handy think too.

Art Harris

 

[dgk]

On 21 Jun 2005 07:27:49 -0700, "Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:

>dgk wrote:
>
>> the wheels on my budget Trek hybrid (7100) are showing signs of
>> age. First, the guy fixing the broken spoke said that they are in
>> fairly bad shape. I've put maybe 3000 miles on them in a year.
>
>How many total miles? What specifically do they mean when they say they
>are in "bad shape." Unless the rims are dented, you should be able to
>make these wheels road worthy. At worst, you could replace the rims.
>I'm assuming you have stainless steel spokes. If they're zinc coated /
>galvanized, then you probably should be looking for new wheels.
>
>> I notice that the brakes are wearing grooves in the rims.
>
>Your brake pads are picking up grit. The same same thing will happen if
>you buy new wheels. Replace your brake pads with Kool Stop (Salmon)
>Continentals.
>
>http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html#continental
>
>> Those both say hybrid but talk about 8 or 9 speed cassette. Mine is 7.
>
>> So I started looking for replacements. Those seem to cost more than my bike did.
>
>Your bike probably has 126 mm rear spacing, and these wheels have 130
>mm spacing. If your frame is steel, you can spread the rear dropouts to
>fit the new wheel. The front is no problem.
>
>A cheap truing stand is ok. You don't really need anything fancy. A
>dishing tool is handy think too.
>
>Art Harris

Total miles are around 3000, the bike is just about one year old.
Aluminum frame. The bike store guy said that the rear wheel (third
broken spoke) was showing wear and that it would likely need to be
replaced. I have nothing more to add except that it was a fairly
inexpensive bike and has had a lot of wear. I don't want it breaking
under me after hitting some bump in the road.

By rear spacing I guess you mean the actual distance between the parts
where the wheel spindle goes through. I can measure that.

I had no idea that I can replace the rim of a wheel, I thought it was
all one piece. As for spokes, cheap ones I would think. How can I
tell?

 

[[email protected]]

dgk wrote:
> On 21 Jun 2005 07:27:49 -0700, "Art Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >dgk wrote:
> >
> >> the wheels on my budget Trek hybrid (7100) are showing signs of
> >> age. First, the guy fixing the broken spoke said that they are in
> >> fairly bad shape. I've put maybe 3000 miles on them in a year.
> >
> >How many total miles? What specifically do they mean when they say they
> >are in "bad shape." Unless the rims are dented, you should be able to
> >make these wheels road worthy. At worst, you could replace the rims.
> >I'm assuming you have stainless steel spokes. If they're zinc coated /
> >galvanized, then you probably should be looking for new wheels.
> >
> >> I notice that the brakes are wearing grooves in the rims.
> >
> >Your brake pads are picking up grit. The same same thing will happen if
> >you buy new wheels. Replace your brake pads with Kool Stop (Salmon)
> >Continentals.
> >
> >http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html#continental
> >
> >> Those both say hybrid but talk about 8 or 9 speed cassette. Mine is 7.
> >
> >> So I started looking for replacements. Those seem to cost more than my bike did.
> >
> >Your bike probably has 126 mm rear spacing, and these wheels have 130
> >mm spacing. If your frame is steel, you can spread the rear dropouts to
> >fit the new wheel. The front is no problem.
> >
>
> Total miles are around 3000, the bike is just about one year old.
> Aluminum frame. The bike store guy said that the rear wheel (third
> broken spoke) was showing wear and that it would likely need to be
> replaced. I have nothing more to add except that it was a fairly
> inexpensive bike and has had a lot of wear. I don't want it breaking
> under me after hitting some bump in the road.
>
> By rear spacing I guess you mean the actual distance between the parts
> where the wheel spindle goes through. I can measure that.
>

A one year old trek hybrid will most likely have 135mm spacing.
According to Sheldon Brown's website, a your 7 speed cassette will work
on a freehub labeled 8 or 9 speed, but will need a spacer. Take a look
at http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#7cassettes. The needed spacer is
probably on your current wheel.

> I had no idea that I can replace the rim of a wheel, I thought it was
> all one piece. As for spokes, cheap ones I would think. How can I
> tell?

With only 3000 miles, there should be nothing wrong with your hub, so
it seems wasteful to replace the whole wheel. It it were my bike, and
the rim is indeed worn out due to wear on the brake surface, I would
buy a new rim and new spokes, and build a new wheel around your
existing hub. You may be better of getting a new wheel, or having a
local mecahinic build up a wheel using your current hub.

I would also switch to Kool-Stop brake pads, as they don't hold onto
road grit. There are a bewildering number of choices in the Kool-Stop
brake pad line, but any of them that fit your brakes would be an
improvement over the pads your bike came with.

Later,
Mark Muller

 

[Rich Clark]

"dgk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Ok, so the wheels on my budget Trek hybrid (7100) are showing signs of
> age. First, the guy fixing the broken spoke said that they are in
> fairly bad shape. I've put maybe 3000 miles on them in a year. Also, I
> notice that the brakes are wearing grooves in the rims.

Do you clean the brake pads regularly? Are they full of grit? I like the
Kool Stop salmon pads a lot, and they seem to stay more debris free than
other pads. And stop better.

Is "the guy" at the same shop that sold you the bike? If so, IMO they should
be taking some responsibility for the sorry state of your wheels. See below.

>They get a
> fair amount of pounding on the streets.

> So I started looking for replacements. Those seem to cost more than my
> bike did.
>
> Let's talk size first. I have 700c X 38 tires. So these might be ok:

The wheels you want are the same wheels that would be appropriate for a
touring bike. What makes a wheel last is not so much the parts as it is the
quality of the setup. In my experience as a 215lb rider doing 3-5000 miles a
year, much of it on rough Philadelphia-area roads, a wheel that has
sufficiently high tension (not just even tension) and has had the spokes
properly stress-relieved before riding will last indefinitely, barring
catastrophe. And even if traumatized so as to break a spoke, such a wheel
(at least one with 36 spokes) may remain rideable enough to get you home,
and recover fully after being repaired.

A wheel built by a machine (including those on most entry-level brand-name
bikes like yours) that has not been set up by hand before use will very
likely fail. This is the fault of the bike shop, which knows better even if
they choose to claim ignorance or to intentionally not spend the time to
prep wheels on bikes they don't think will get a lot of miles.

> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...and=&sku=14604&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=
>
> or these, a little nicer perhaps:
>
> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...and=&sku=14429&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=
>
> Those both say hybrid but talk about 8 or 9 speed cassette. Mine is 7.

They will work. You'll need a spacer to use a 7-cog cassette. Odds are high
your current setup is the same - an 8/9 speed hub, a 7-speed cassette, and a
spacer.

And you'll need someone to prep the new wheels or they will probably fail
prematurely just like the old one.

> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...and=&sku=13814&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=
>
> So, are those first two ok for my bike even though they don't mention
> a 7 speed cassette? Are all road rims capable of handling 20 to 38
> size tires? They look the same width.

No, a rim wide enough for a 38 is too wide for a 20. They're not all the
same width.

> I guess that I unhook the cassette from my current wheel and transfer
> it over. Or maybe buy a nicer one? Since theft is an issue when
> parking a bike in NYC all day, I don't mind having nice components on
> an inexpensive model bike.

If you just replaced the chain and the old cassette still rides smoothly,
there's nothing to be gained by upgrading it, IMO. But you'll need a chain
whip and the appropriate lockring tool to remove and swap the cassette.

RichC

 

[Anthony A.]

Art, DGK, I'm not so sure about that spacing. My wife's 7 speed Trek
hybrid (850, i think) uses a 135mm hub - there are some LX hubs in
there right now. I would measure before buying anything.

DGK, you can run 7 speed on 8 or 9 speed hubs if you use a spacer
behind the cassette.
Aslo note that the cassette requires special tools to remove - a
cahinwhip and a cassette lockring tool.

 

[Rich Clark]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> With only 3000 miles, there should be nothing wrong with your hub, so
> it seems wasteful to replace the whole wheel. It it were my bike, and
> the rim is indeed worn out due to wear on the brake surface, I would
> buy a new rim and new spokes, and build a new wheel around your
> existing hub. You may be better of getting a new wheel, or having a
> local mecahinic build up a wheel using your current hub.

I would too, except that the hubs in question are worth far less money than
it would cost to have the wheel rebuilt. If I were doing it myself I'd
agree, but if I were doing it myself I'd be starting with better hubs than
are likely to be present on a $300 Trek hybrid, or a $60 Nashbar wheelset.
And I wouldn't be doing it if I'd never done it before and the wheel in
question was necessary so I could ride at all.

RichC

 

[maxo]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:01:49 -0400, dgk wrote:

>
> I think that I want to get a truing stand and work on my own wheels. Good
> idea? Is a cheap one like this good?
>
> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...rand=&sku=2076&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=
>
> Ok, that will do for now.

That's a good idea, or just get a fork offa a junker and make your own jig.

Nashbar wheels usually need to be destressed with a screwdriver and
retensioned before they're roadworthy. I'd even go so far as to repack and
adjust the hubs if they don't feel absolutely smooth. Doing both will take
less than an hour and provide a good learning experience.

I've got a set of Sora/Mavic's that I picked up on sale for a hundred
about a year and a half ago, and after tweaking them, they've been great
rough and tumble urban wheels. I kind of wish I'd gotten something with 32
instead of 36 spokes, as they're quite heavy, but I can't complain about
the durability.

 

[maxo]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:27:49 -0700, Art Harris wrote:

> Replace your brake pads with Kool Stop (Salmon)
> Continentals.

Koolstop contis are for threaded applications only AFAIK, like for vintage
sidepulls. The OP's bike probably has smooth studded pads in his cantis if
it's a hybrid. Koolstops, just the simplest kind you can get, are still
highly recommended.

I've got a set of the Continentals mounted on some ancient 600 calipers,
and indeed, you can't ask for a better shoe. Dead silent, NEVER picks up
grit, zero noticeable rim wear, extremely long lasting.

If you can't find the Koolstops you want, Ebay is a nice place to find
them. That's where I got grey Continentals to go with my bike's colour
scheme (all due respect to salmon lovers).

 

[maxo]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:12:15 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

> There are a bewildering number of choices in the Kool-Stop brake
> pad line, but any of them that fit your brakes would be an improvement
> over the pads your bike came with.

You don't need anything fancier than an Eagle Claw Black, the most basic
offering they have for cantilever brakes, if you're just doing casual road
riding.

I'm not affiliated with Cycle Direct on Ebay, but have bought shoes from
them before. Super friendly $8 for 4 shoes (both ends of your bike), and
quick shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27949&item=7164005057&rd=1

My last pair of these lasted over two years in daily city commuting. Good
stuff.

 

[Roger Zoul]

maxo wrote:
:: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:01:49 -0400, dgk wrote:
::
:::
::: I think that I want to get a truing stand and work on my own
::: wheels. Good idea? Is a cheap one like this good?
:::
:::
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...rand=&sku=2076&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=
:::
::: Ok, that will do for now.
::
:: That's a good idea, or just get a fork offa a junker and make your
:: own jig.
::
:: Nashbar wheels usually need to be destressed with a screwdriver and
:: retensioned before they're roadworthy. I'd even go so far as to
:: repack and adjust the hubs if they don't feel absolutely smooth.
:: Doing both will take less than an hour and provide a good learning
:: experience.
::
:: I've got a set of Sora/Mavic's that I picked up on sale for a hundred
:: about a year and a half ago, and after tweaking them, they've been
:: great rough and tumble urban wheels. I kind of wish I'd gotten
:: something with 32 instead of 36 spokes, as they're quite heavy, but
:: I can't complain about the durability.

Is the difference in weight of a 36 and a 32 spoke wheel that much?

 

[dgk]

On 21 Jun 2005 09:23:50 -0700, "Anthony A." <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Art, DGK, I'm not so sure about that spacing. My wife's 7 speed Trek
>hybrid (850, i think) uses a 135mm hub - there are some LX hubs in
>there right now. I would measure before buying anything.
>
>DGK, you can run 7 speed on 8 or 9 speed hubs if you use a spacer
>behind the cassette.
>Aslo note that the cassette requires special tools to remove - a
>cahinwhip and a cassette lockring tool.

AH! I have the chainwhip, and I think I have the lockring tool.

 

[maxo]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:05:49 -0400, Roger Zoul wrote:

>
> Is the difference in weight of a 36 and a 32 spoke wheel that much?

Not really, probably around 50g or so. It's rotating weight, so more
apparent, plus it's like adding yet another thing to cut through the
air. If you're competing though, this would be a major deal, for slobs
like me, it just provides usenet fodder. LoL

Some say 32 spoke double butted wheels will ride nicer than a straight
gauge 36 spoke wheel simply because it's less stiff.

If I was truly worried about weight, I'd probably not be using 700x28s
mounted on relatively heavy Mavic Ma3s.

 

[Peter Cole]

dgk wrote:
> Ok, so the wheels on my budget Trek hybrid (7100) are showing signs of
> age. First, the guy fixing the broken spoke said that they are in
> fairly bad shape. I've put maybe 3000 miles on them in a year. Also, I
> notice that the brakes are wearing grooves in the rims. They get a
> fair amount of pounding on the streets.
>
> So I started looking for replacements. Those seem to cost more than my
> bike did.
>
> Let's talk size first. I have 700c X 38 tires. So these might be ok:
>
> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...and=&sku=14604&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=
>
> or these, a little nicer perhaps:
>
> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...and=&sku=14429&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=
>
> Those both say hybrid but talk about 8 or 9 speed cassette. Mine is 7.
> These talk 7 speed cassette, but might not be the correct size:
>
> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...and=&sku=13814&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=
>
> So, are those first two ok for my bike even though they don't mention
> a 7 speed cassette? Are all road rims capable of handling 20 to 38
> size tires? They look the same width.
>
> I guess that I unhook the cassette from my current wheel and transfer
> it over. Or maybe buy a nicer one? Since theft is an issue when
> parking a bike in NYC all day, I don't mind having nice components on
> an inexpensive model bike.
>
> I think that I want to get a truing stand and work on my own wheels.
> Good idea? Is a cheap one like this good?
>
> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...rand=&sku=2076&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=
>
> Ok, that will do for now.

The hybrid wheels are a better match to the kind of tires you use.

You might think about buying a new cassette and saving your old wheel as
a spare.

You should stress relieve your wheels (see FAQ). You don't need to
loosen the spokes first, most factory-built wheels come with the spokes
too loose.

You'll need a spacer to use a 7-speed cassette on a freehub made for 8-9
speed. They're a common item, any shop will know what you mean, Nashbar
should have them, too.

You don't need a truing stand, you can use your brake pads.

If you're really wearing out rims in 3K miles, then you should use
KoolStop salmon-colored pads, the pad color is important since it
indicates the compound is the hard formula, which prevents rim wear.

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

maxo wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:05:49 -0400, Roger Zoul wrote:
>
>>
>> Is the difference in weight of a 36 and a 32 spoke wheel that much?
>
> Not really, probably around 50g or so.

50 grams for 4 spokes + nipples? Seems awfully high. I'd guess the
difference would be closer to 30 g, and probably even less for wheels
without steel eyelets.

> It's rotating weight, so more apparent,

If you're accelerating. I don't believe in this case the weight difference
is significant even for world-class professional racers.

> Some say 32 spoke double butted wheels will ride nicer than a straight
> gauge 36 spoke wheel simply because it's less stiff.

Some people are deluded if they think they can feel the difference.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber

 

[maxo]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:16:49 -0700, Benjamin Lewis wrote:

>> Not really, probably around 50g or so.
>
> 50 grams for 4 spokes + nipples? Seems awfully high. I'd guess the
> difference would be closer to 30 g, and probably even less for wheels
> without steel eyelets.

Dt 14guage spokes at @ 7g + nipples and eyelets. High forties
perhaps...

Like I said, it's all Usenet fodder.

 

[dgk]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:14:15 -0400, Peter Cole
<[email protected]> wrote:

>You'll need a spacer to use a 7-speed cassette on a freehub made for 8-9
>speed. They're a common item, any shop will know what you mean, Nashbar
>should have them, too.
>
>You don't need a truing stand, you can use your brake pads.
>

Brake pads? I thought the idea was to allow the wheel to turn. Oh,
lots I'm going to need to know. I can't wait until I can get to the
Time's Up repair class next Tuesday and Thursday.

 

[maxo]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:45:27 -0400, dgk wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:14:15 -0400, Peter Cole <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>You'll need a spacer to use a 7-speed cassette on a freehub made for 8-9
>>speed. They're a common item, any shop will know what you mean, Nashbar
>>should have them, too.
>>
>>You don't need a truing stand, you can use your brake pads.
>>
>>
> Brake pads? I thought the idea was to allow the wheel to turn. Oh, lots
> I'm going to need to know. I can't wait until I can get to the Time's Up
> repair class next Tuesday and Thursday.

I think what Peter means is that you can use your brake pads as a guide to
see how wobbly your rims are. That's what I do, just flip the bike over,
rest the bars on a foam dog bed, and rest my thumb on a brake shoe with
the nail barely touching the rim, and turn the wheel slowly--it's a great
way to find smaller wobbles and to "feel" exactly where they begin and
end. Then I pluck the spokes to see if the tones can tell me which spoke
is the naughty one, and I tighten it. I find truing to tone to be very
very accurate.

Remember to lube those nipples!

 

[Bill Sornson]

maxo wrote:
> I think what Peter means is that you can use your brake pads as a
> guide to see how wobbly your rims are. That's what I do, just flip
> the bike over, rest the bars on a foam dog bed, and rest my thumb on
> a brake shoe with the nail barely touching the rim, and turn the
> wheel slowly--it's a great way to find smaller wobbles and to "feel"
> exactly where they begin and end. Then I pluck the spokes to see if
> the tones can tell me which spoke is the naughty one, and I tighten
> it. I find truing to tone to be very very accurate.
>
> Remember to lube those nipples!

You have a foam dog?

Bill "slow evening" S.

 

[dgk]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 05:40:50 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>maxo wrote:
>> I think what Peter means is that you can use your brake pads as a
>> guide to see how wobbly your rims are. That's what I do, just flip
>> the bike over, rest the bars on a foam dog bed, and rest my thumb on
>> a brake shoe with the nail barely touching the rim, and turn the
>> wheel slowly--it's a great way to find smaller wobbles and to "feel"
>> exactly where they begin and end. Then I pluck the spokes to see if
>> the tones can tell me which spoke is the naughty one, and I tighten
>> it. I find truing to tone to be very very accurate.
>>
>> Remember to lube those nipples!
>
>You have a foam dog?
>
>Bill "slow evening" S.
>

Isn't a foaming dog rabid?