Wheel trueing novice desperate for help (Long, sorry!)

[Bob Flemming]

On Sat, 1 Feb 2003 15:29:09 -0000, "Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Pete Biggs wrote:
>>> The only clue I can see is that you are rounding nipples. That means you are using a **** spoke
>>> spanner and perhaps the tension at which damage occurs isn't really very high.
>>
>> Or there is not enough lubrication between nipple and rim - as Jost Brandt explained in
>> his reply.
>>
>> I suspect this is a factor for the too-loose wheel - together with a not-good-enough spoke key
>> and perhaps not /really/ tightening to near the point of rounding.
>>
>> I know they can be hard to get hold of, but it is woth getting a Spokey (or another tool of
>> similar design).
>>
>I managed to break a Spokey tightening spokes. I guess it shows that it doesn't slip, but it does
>show it's a bit fragile: I've had good experience with the colour coded Park Tools ones, but
>they're pricey. (Well, the same as a Spokey, but...)

Yeah, I use those colour-coded Park spoke keys. Really excellent.

http://www.sjscycles.com/store/item888.htm

I've never quite understood precisely how these are sized, but I manage. The green and black
ones are the ones you want....or even the red one !!! Best get to a bike shop with your wheel
and try one !

bob

>A

 

[Call Me Bob]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:46:08 +0000, Call me Bob <[email protected]> wrote:

>I've now trued the wheel 4 times and am pleased with the "workshop" result, but as soon as I ride
>the bike the wheel practically disassembles itself within about 10 miles!

Replying to my own message to give an update. I'd just finished tensioning and trueing the wheel for
the fourth time last night when I posted my request for advice. I've been out on the bike for an
hour this morning to test it and (Hallelujah!) it hasn't disintegrated as it had done following my
previous attempts.

Obviously 20 miles is no real test of the wheels durability but that was more than enough to see my
first efforts spectacularly undone, so I've moved forward at least a little. It was this last
trueing that I loosened the whole wheel off in order to help me get tension as even as possible. I
think I was more successful in that respect, though not entirely as I can still hear variance around
the wheel when plucking spokes. I also think I got more absolute tension in the build than before,
which a number of posters have said could be my problem.

I'm very grateful to those who've chipped in with advice and suggestions, I genuinely value the
input. Thanks all.

I'm reluctant to tinker with the wheel further at this stage because I need the bike to get to work
and back next week and if this final attempt of mine has (fingers crossed) produced a halfway stable
wheel I'll settle for that for the moment. My other hack should be back on the road in the next week
or so and once I have that available for commuting I'll be able to try out the many suggestions
offered without risking being bikeless and unable to easily get to work.

Bob
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[Call Me Bob]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:11:12 -0000, "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote:

>You seem to be doing everything right. I'm just wondering from your description about eveness of
>tension - that could leave a few spokes at low tension while others are as tight as you can get
>them. Try plucking the spokes on one side. They should all ring at the same pitch. If they don't
>look for adjacent spokes, one high pitch, one low pitch. Loosen the first and tighten the second by
>the same amount until they have the same pitch. Some you might need to adjust two spokes either
>side of a third but the aim should be a reasonably even pitch as you go round the wheel.

This plucking suggestion has been very useful. I've just been listening to and comparing all the
wheels I have in the house and it's much easier to judge tension with ears than inexperienced
fingers. I'll use this technique when I'm next working on the wheel. Thanks very much.

Bob
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[Call Me Bob]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:54:20 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>You didn't say how badly the wheel is out of true when this happens but if it is more than +-1mm
>then it's not spoke twist that is getting you but most likely loose spokes. How is roundness
>holding up?

It's way more than a mm or two so I take on board that spoke windup can't be the culprit. The spokes
had been unwinding varying amounts but some were totally loose and virtually out of the nipple
thread which left the wheel in terrible shape both laterally and radially.

>Brass nipples don't round off from high spoke tension. They round off from too much friction with
>the rim. Put a drop of oil into the joint at every nipple and notice how much easier they turn as
>soon as they are lubricated. With lubrication, you can snap spokes by tightening without rounding
>a nipple.

This hadn't occurred to me, I'd lubricated the nipple and spoke threads but not the nipple/rim
contacts. I'll do this next time.

>Your wheel is too loose.

Okay, lubricate and get more tension into the job, will try that.

>For that, you could get a copy of "the Bicycle Wheel" where this is fully explained.

I fully intend to buy and read your book. I've already checked my local retailers and nobody has it
in stock so I can't lay my hands on a copy immediately but I'll order one very soon.

Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it.

Bob
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[Call Me Bob]

On Sat, 01 Feb 2003 08:08:21 +0900, James Annan <[email protected]> wrote:

>The only clue I can see is that you are rounding nipples. That means you are using a **** spoke
>spanner and perhaps the tension at which damage occurs isn't really very high.

I don't think it can be down to the spoke key. Most people seem to regard the Spokey as the tool of
choice but I couldn't find one locally so bought the Park Tools SW7. It seems to fit the nipples
snugly and engages over most of the available area on three sides so should be up to the task. Jobst
has pointed out that friction between nipple and rim is likely to be hampering the job and that
makes good sense so hopefully with some lubrication this will cease to be a problem and I can get
more tension into the spokes without damaging the nipples.

Bob
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[Call Me Bob]

On Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:52:13 -0000, "Phileas" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Are you using a decent spoke key? Most cheap ones are virtually useless. I use a Spokey which
>engages all four sides of the nipple.

Park SW7. Seems a reasonable little tool.

Bob
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[Call Me Bob]

On 31 Jan 2003 18:11:21 -0800, [email protected] (ant) wrote:

>A thought, though it might seem obvious-

>When you loosen the wheel, is the rim still round? Your original accident does not sound
>catastrophic and rim-destroying in nature, but I imagine if your rim was bent, it might true up
>with effort in the workstand, but unwind in riding.

Well, this hadn't really figured in my thinking. The pannier incident really didn't seem bad enough
to damage the rim but I could well be mistaken. You'll have seen you're not the only one to suggest
I look into this as a possible complication and I certainly will do.

>Does it go out of true in the same place every time?

Actually I've got no idea, something else for my checklist )

>one more- as you are getting the hang of this, and are loosening the spokes between each rebuild,
>it migth be worth your while to just purchase a new rim and try frmo there. wouldnt take you but an
>extra five minutes to put it on an already loose wheel. new rims can be had fairly cheap if you
>arent picky, and if you are thorough as you say you are (and im sure you are) it seems this might
>take the guesswork out of it.

Good point and something I may well resort to. If the wheel falls apart on me again I'll check it
for damage and might try with a new rim and nipples. Thanks for your advice.

Bob
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[Call Me Bob]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:01:48 -0000, "Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote:

>you may have missed the advice given by one poster to stick tape flags on the spokes so you can see
>when they're winding up. Worked for me. Since your problems seem to be with spoke windup, must be
>worth a try!

Yes, useful suggestion, although it's been pointed out to me that spoke windup can't be responsible
for my wheel coming apart as comprehensively and quickly as it has been doing. Next time I break out
the spoke key I'll definitely mark the spokes somehow, either with pen or tape.

Cheers

Bob
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[Call Me Bob]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:56:11 -0600, "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote:

>If your overall tension is still low, that could explain the unravelling of your wheel. Can you
>quantify it by comparing to another wheel of proper tension? It is possible that a poor
>quality/worn spoke wrench would both be at risk of damaging nipples while at the same time stopping
>at too low an overall tension.

Well, I had thought that the tension was high enough, but your comments (and those from others) have
made me now doubt this. Compared to other rear wheels I've examined/ridden it seemed acceptable and
I know a couple of wheels on old hacks I've run have had less tension and been okay. Having said
that, the tension in the Mavics on my good bike does seem higher and they are probably a better
example of what I should be aiming for.

I don t think the spoke wrench is at fault. It's a new Park Tools SW7 and seems adequate
for the job.

>Secondly, when you completely detensioned the wheel, was the rim mostly in one plane and
>relatively round, both within a couple of millimeters? If the rim has been bent such that when
>true and round some spokes are wildly tighter/looser than others, that would explain the resulting
>unstable effect.

This may be a factor. I didn't pay lots of attention to how true the rim was once I had loosened the
entire wheel. Looking back this seems pretty stupid but I was focused on the spokes and nipples and
didn't really check if the rim was true in its natural state, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't, I
remember seeing quite a snake in it when I spun it while loose. Perhaps it was damaged more than I
had thought in its encounter with my pannier and this has contributed to my woes. I'll check it as
soon as I get the chance to work on the wheel again.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Incidently, I followed the link in your sig and had a look at yellowjersey.org . I loved the idea
of newlyweds choosing a tandem as a wedding gift and having friends/family chip in to buy it for
them. The pics of them collecting their new bikes are great. A tandem has to be the ultimate
wedding present.

Bob
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[Call Me Bob]

On Sat, 01 Feb 2003 01:03:44 GMT, "David Ornee" <[email protected]> wrote:

(snip good advice)

>I hope this helps. Let us know the outcome.

It has helped, everyone has been really helpful and encouraging. I'm very grateful and will
certainly follow up with my progress.

Cheers

Bob
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[Call Me Bob]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:57:36 -0500, "David L. Johnson" <David L. Johnson
<[email protected]>> wrote:

>On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:08:46 -0500, Eatmorepies wrote:
>> Could it be that you're trying to true a very bent rim?
>
>Good point. While an experienced wheelbuilder can manage to coax a bent rim into shape, it is much
>harder than a straight rim.

For the moment the rim is laced and tight so I can't really check but I'll certainly examine this as
soon as I get chance to. Thanks for the thought.

Bob
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[Pete Biggs]

Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
> I managed to break a Spokey tightening spokes. I guess it shows that it doesn't slip, but it does
> show it's a bit fragile

You must have been giving it some! I would not call them fragile; I've been using a Spokey for many
years without problems; and I've not heard of another broken one.

~PB

 

[Ambrose Nankive]

Bob Flemming wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Feb 2003 15:29:09 -0000, "Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Pete Biggs wrote:
>>>> The only clue I can see is that you are rounding nipples. That means you are using a **** spoke
>>>> spanner and perhaps the tension at which damage occurs isn't really very high.
>>>
>>> Or there is not enough lubrication between nipple and rim - as Jost Brandt explained in his
>>> reply.
>>>
>>> I suspect this is a factor for the too-loose wheel - together with a not-good-enough spoke key
>>> and perhaps not /really/ tightening to near the point of rounding.
>>>
>>> I know they can be hard to get hold of, but it is woth getting a Spokey (or another tool of
>>> similar design).
>>>
>> I managed to break a Spokey tightening spokes. I guess it shows that it doesn't slip, but it does
>> show it's a bit fragile: I've had good experience with the colour coded Park Tools ones, but
>> they're pricey. (Well, the same as a Spokey, but...)
>
> Yeah, I use those colour-coded Park spoke keys. Really excellent.
>
> http://www.sjscycles.com/store/item888.htm
>
> I've never quite understood precisely how these are sized, but I manage. The green and black
> ones are the ones you want....or even the red one !!! Best get to a bike shop with your wheel
> and try one !
>
Yep, I've got all three, too. It's what happens when you keep on picking up wheels someone's thrown
out and trying to true them.

A

 

[Duncan Bourne]

>
>I don t think the spoke wrench is at fault. It's a new Park Tools SW7 and seems adequate
>for the job.
>
>
>
This may be obvious but check that the spoke spanner is the correct size. The several sizes
available are all within a bees whatsit of each other and a spanner one eeny size too big will
appear to work but will round off nipples easily.

That's a great job of replying to everyone you did, you needn't reply to this though.

Duncan Bourne

 

[Steve Shapiro]

I think Call me Bob had an important idea; Are the nipples the correct size? It is possible that
the shop selling you the replacement spokes and nipples gave you 2.0mm nipples and 1.8mm spokes.
Nipples for
1.8mm spokes will not fit on 2.0mm spokes, however, 2.0mm nipples will fit on 1.8mm spokes but the
threads will not be properly engaged. So, if you have access to a micrometer or a vernier caliper
check the diameter of your spokes. If any are 1.8mm near the ends, be very suspicious of spoke /
nipple mismatch. Also, it is not common to use
2.8mm (also called 15 gauge) spokes on a rear wheel.

Good luck, Steve

Call me Bob <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:46:08 +0000, Call me Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I've now trued the wheel 4 times and am pleased with the "workshop" result, but as soon as I ride
> >the bike the wheel practically disassembles itself within about 10 miles!
>
> Replying to my own message to give an update. I'd just finished tensioning and trueing the wheel
> for the fourth time last night when I posted my request for advice. I've been out on the bike for
> an hour this morning to test it and (Hallelujah!) it hasn't disintegrated as it had done following
> my previous attempts.
>
> Obviously 20 miles is no real test of the wheels durability but that was more than enough to see
> my first efforts spectacularly undone, so I've moved forward at least a little. It was this last
> trueing that I loosened the whole wheel off in order to help me get tension as even as possible. I
> think I was more successful in that respect, though not entirely as I can still hear variance
> around the wheel when plucking spokes. I also think I got more absolute tension in the build than
> before, which a number of posters have said could be my problem.
>
> I'm very grateful to those who've chipped in with advice and suggestions, I genuinely value the
> input. Thanks all.
>
> I'm reluctant to tinker with the wheel further at this stage because I need the bike to get to
> work and back next week and if this final attempt of mine has (fingers crossed) produced a halfway
> stable wheel I'll settle for that for the moment. My other hack should be back on the road in the
> next week or so and once I have that available for commuting I'll be able to try out the many
> suggestions offered without risking being bikeless and unable to easily get to work.
>
>
> Bob