Wheel truing problem

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I'm ready to give up and hand the wheel to my LBS, but before I do
that, I thought I'd give this forum a try and see if any of you can
come up with a brilliant solution.

I'm building a rear wheel with Ritchey comp hub, mavic MA2 rim, and 32
DT Champion spokes laced 3x both sides. I've prepped the threads with a
little blue loctite, brought spoke tension up to good level (if
anything, it might be a little too much), trued and dished the wheel.
When I stress the spokes, they generally hold tension, nothing moves.
BUT when I take the wheel off the stand and bounce it around a bit and
put back, it totally off. It seems to be off true differently
each time, so it's not the same few spokes giving me trouble. And
what's more, it seems that some of the spokes are tightening and
not loosening when I bounce the wheel around.

Here's the catch. I've noticed that when either tightening or loosening
the nipples, the spokes turn with the nipples until I hear a
*ping*, and they settle in. I know that's not good. I don't think I put
too much loctite, but who knows.

Anyway, that's my dilemma. I've spent three Sundays trying to fix it
and I'm running out of time and patience. Any thoughts on how I can
correct this problem? Could overtensioning be a cause? I built an
Ultegra wheelset 3 years ago, and it's still going strong with a few
minor truings here and there. It seemed like building those wheels was
a piece of cake, everything went so smoothly.

Something's gone wrong here. Any input would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks.

 

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Art Harris writes:

>> I've prepped the threads with a little blue Loctite, brought spoke
>> tension up to good level (if anything, it might be a little too
>> much), trued and dished the wheel.

> I think the blue Loctite is at least part of your problem. Spoke
> threads and rim eyelets should be lubed with oil so that they turn
> freely. When properly tensioned, they will not loosen.

I'm sure the Loctite is ALL of the problem. Loctite has no place on
spoke threads. As You say, there is no need for it anyway if the
spokes don't become slack in use. Spoke nipples cannot rotated on
their own if spokes do not become slack in use. Spokes should not
become slack in use. So there you have it.

As I have mentioned, SpokePrep (thread lock) was invented for loosely
machine built wheels, nothing else. The reason why machine built
wheels are most often loosely built has also been discussed often.
Low tension is what has given machine built wheels a bad reputation.

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[Art Harris]

[email protected] wrote:

> So when the wheel goes crazy after I bounce it a few times on the ground, what does that mean?

That doesn't make sense.

> I'm working with aluminum nipples -- shouldn't I use a little bit of loctite? Or can I get away with none?

Why aluminum nipples? Since they're already messed up with Loctite, I'd
ditch them and buy brass nipples. Clean up the spoke threads, oil, and
start over. I think it will go a lot smoother.

Art Harris

 

[[email protected]]

Yeah, didn't make sense to me either, but it happened over and over the
past two Sundays. Drove me nuts.

You're both right, you and Jobst Brandt: I just have to re-do the
wheel, get new nipples and get rid of the Loctite.

Thanks.

 

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

>I'm ready to give up and hand the wheel to my LBS, but before I do
>that, I thought I'd give this forum a try and see if any of you can
>come up with a brilliant solution.

Are you sure your LBS can do a better job than you?

>I'm building a rear wheel with Ritchey comp hub, mavic MA2 rim, and 32
>DT Champion spokes laced 3x both sides. I've prepped the threads with a
>little blue loctite,

First mistake. You need to lube the spoke threads and the socket where the
spoke head will seat. Locitite will not allow you to true the wheel later
on. Also, if you get the spoke tension to where it needs to be, you don't
need loctite.

>brought spoke tension up to good level (if anything, it might be a little
>too much),

How did you check to see if you had the tension high enough?

>trued and dished the wheel.

Good.

>When I stress the spokes,

What is stress the spokes? Per chance did you mean stress relieve the spokes?

>they generally hold tension, nothing moves.

Gnereally hold tension?

>BUT when I take the wheel off the stand and bounce it around a bit and
>put back, it totally off. It seems to be off true differently
>each time, so it's not the same few spokes giving me trouble. And
>what's more, it seems that some of the spokes are tightening and
>not loosening when I bounce the wheel around.

Sounds like your tension is too low and uneven.


>Here's the catch. I've noticed that when either tightening or loosening
>the nipples, the spokes turn with the nipples until I hear a
>*ping*, and they settle in. I know that's not good. I don't think I put
>too much loctite, but who knows.

Any loctite is too much loctite.

>Anyway, that's my dilemma. I've spent three Sundays trying to fix it
>and I'm running out of time and patience. Any thoughts on how I can
>correct this problem?

>Could overtensioning be a cause?

Not from what you describe. If over tension was the cause the wheel would
go out of true when you stress relieve it.


I suggest getting a copy of 'The Bicycle Wheel' by Jobst Brandt. Read it
through once. Then use it as a reference book when you build your wheel.
------------
Alex

 

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Alex Rodriguez wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
> >I'm ready to give up and hand the wheel to my LBS, but before I do
> >that, I thought I'd give this forum a try and see if any of you can
> >come up with a brilliant solution.
>
> Are you sure your LBS can do a better job than you?

LOL! (no!)

> >BUT when I take the wheel off the stand and bounce it around a bit and
> >put back, it totally off. It seems to be off true differently
> >each time, so it's not the same few spokes giving me trouble. And
> >what's more, it seems that some of the spokes are tightening and
> >not loosening when I bounce the wheel around.
>
> Sounds like your tension is too low and uneven.

No, spokes were definitely NOT under-tensioned. The problem was
over-tensioning and binding due to Loctite. I brought the tension down,
dribbled lots of oil between spoke threads and nipples and between
nipples and rim eyelets, got rid of spoke twist by laying the wheel on
its side between truings and pressing down on opposite sides of the rim
(it's satisfying to hear the "pinging" become less and less frequent
with each "stressing" session) and and stress relieved the spokes the
way Brandt suggests in his book -- wheel's behaving much better now.
I'm not out of the woods yet, will finish up this week probably.

> >Could overtensioning be a cause?
>
> Not from what you describe. If over tension was the cause the wheel would
> go out of true when you stress relieve it.

Wheel was over-tensioned. I'm quite positive about that. I tension by
ear without a tensiometer (granted, not an exact measurement, but close
enough), and spoke tones were definitely much higher than what I was
aiming for. And the spokes felt very tight already, nowhere to go but
down.

> I suggest getting a copy of 'The Bicycle Wheel' by Jobst Brandt. Read it
> through once. Then use it as a reference book when you build your wheel.

I do have his book -- built my first wheelset with it. But, you're
right, I probably should take the time to read it over carefully.

Thanks for your comments.