Wheel truing tips? (John?).

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Shaun Rimmer, Mar 28, 2003.

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  1. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    Hi folksies, Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered wheel rim. I swapped it out for a
    new one last night, and that went smoothly.

    It came time to true and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too much
    time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem came when I checked it for radial trueness - it wasn't,
    it had quite a radial wobble on it.

    I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or so mm, but couldn't get it
    any better (was late, bad light, awkward position, tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do this
    before, and even though I've read some on the subject, found it a little difficult to get my head
    around well.

    I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any tips to make this go
    smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I prolly won't find in the basic literature - I
    don't have a truing stand, or even a work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent over an
    upturned bike, just using my eyes, the brake blocks, and a metal bar across the underside of the
    chain stays to gauge lateral and radial trueness.

    Any help _much_ appreciated!

    Cheers folks ',;~}

    Shaun aRe - gonna have at it again tonight.
     
    Tags:


  2. David Kunz

    David Kunz Guest

    Shaun Rimmer wrote:
    > Hi folksies, Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered wheel rim. I swapped it out for a
    > new one last night, and that went smoothly.
    >
    > It came time to true and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
    > much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem came when I checked it for radial trueness - it
    > wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.
    >
    > I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or so mm, but couldn't get it
    > any better (was late, bad light, awkward position, tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do
    > this before, and even though I've read some on the subject, found it a little difficult to get my
    > head around well.
    >
    > I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any tips to make this go
    > smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I prolly won't find in the basic literature - I
    > don't have a truing stand, or even a work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent over an
    > upturned bike, just using my eyes, the brake blocks, and a metal bar across the underside of the
    > chain stays to gauge lateral and radial trueness.
    >
    >
    > Any help _much_ appreciated!

    I'm not an expert, but I've built about 8 wheels (so far :)). What I do is radial truing first, then
    every 3 or so latteral adjustments, I recheck and adjust the radial. I also work in small changes --
    no more than 1/4 turn (per spoke) per adjustment.

    And remember to check tension as you true (pluck the spokes and listen to the tone) -- you need to
    balance loosening one side vs. tighteneing the other vs. working with a loose or tight spoke that
    may be 3 or 4 away from the out of alignment spot! AND, (finally) stress relieve every so often as
    the wheel comes up to tension and you'll have less problems.

    David
     
  3. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    David Kunz <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Shaun Rimmer wrote:
    > > Hi folksies, Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered
    wheel
    > > rim. I swapped it out for a new one last night, and that went smoothly.
    > >
    > > It came time to true and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
    > > much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem
    came
    > > when I checked it for radial trueness - it wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.
    > >
    > > I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or
    so
    > > mm, but couldn't get it any better (was late, bad light, awkward
    position,
    > > tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do this before, and even though I've read some on the
    > > subject, found it a little difficult to get my
    head
    > > around well.
    > >
    > > I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any
    tips
    > > to make this go smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I
    prolly
    > > won't find in the basic literature - I don't have a truing stand, or
    even a
    > > work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent over an upturned
    bike,
    > > just using my eyes, the brake blocks, and a metal bar across the
    underside
    > > of the chain stays to gauge lateral and radial trueness.
    > >
    > >
    > > Any help _much_ appreciated!
    >
    > I'm not an expert, but I've built about 8 wheels (so far :)).

    That's nearer to expert than me by 8 wheels ',;~}

    > What I do is radial truing first, then every 3 or so latteral adjustments, I recheck and adjust
    > the radial.

    OK, thanks for that, but how do you know which spokes to tightenand which to loosen to correct a
    radial misalignment?

    > I also work in small changes -- no more than 1/4 turn (per spoke) per adjustment.

    Yeah - did that.

    > And remember to check tension as you true (pluck the spokes and listen to the tone) -- you need to
    > balance loosening one side vs. tighteneing the other vs. working with a loose or tight spoke that
    > may be 3 or 4 away from the out of alignment spot!

    OK......

    > AND, (finally) stress relieve every so often as the wheel comes up to tension and you'll have less
    > problems.

    Cheers - I'm actually working with the spokes that were already on, is this gonna lessen the need
    for s/relieving?

    > David

    Thanks David.

    Shaun aRe
     
  4. "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Hi folksies, Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered
    wheel
    > rim. I swapped it out for a new one last night, and that went smoothly.
    >
    > It came time to true and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
    > much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem
    came
    > when I checked it for radial trueness - it wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.
    >
    > I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or so mm, but couldn't get it
    > any better (was late, bad light, awkward position, tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do
    > this before, and even though I've read some on the subject, found it a little difficult to get my
    > head around well.
    >
    > I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any
    tips
    > to make this go smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I prolly won't find in the basic
    > literature - I don't have a truing stand, or even
    a
    > work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent over an upturned bike, just using my eyes, the
    > brake blocks, and a metal bar across the underside of the chain stays to gauge lateral and radial
    > trueness.
    >
    >
    > Any help _much_ appreciated!
    >
    >
    > Cheers folks ',;~}
    >
    > Shaun aRe - gonna have at it again tonight.

    If your really off 3mm, I'd suggest that you dis-assemble it completely and start over. Then I'd
    somehow check the rim for roundness. Hold it beside another wheel? Sounds like it's not round to
    begin with. If it's not round maybe you could return it. if OK try again. Here's a good guide.

    http://www.execulink.com/~dtierney/wmc/faq.htm#WTQ1

    --
    DTW .../\.../\.../\...
     
  5. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    D T W .../\... <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > Hi folksies, Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered
    > wheel
    > > rim. I swapped it out for a new one last night, and that went smoothly.
    > >
    > > It came time to true and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
    > > much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem
    > came
    > > when I checked it for radial trueness - it wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.
    > >
    > > I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or
    so
    > > mm, but couldn't get it any better (was late, bad light, awkward
    position,
    > > tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do this before, and even though I've read some on the
    > > subject, found it a little difficult to get my
    head
    > > around well.
    > >
    > > I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any
    > tips
    > > to make this go smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I
    prolly
    > > won't find in the basic literature - I don't have a truing stand, or
    even
    > a
    > > work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent over an upturned
    bike,
    > > just using my eyes, the brake blocks, and a metal bar across the
    underside
    > > of the chain stays to gauge lateral and radial trueness.
    > >
    > >
    > > Any help _much_ appreciated!
    > >
    > >
    > > Cheers folks ',;~}
    > >
    > > Shaun aRe - gonna have at it again tonight.
    >
    >
    > If your really off 3mm,

    About, but that's a guess, as I didn't measure it and it was late at the time.

    > I'd suggest that you dis-assemble it completely and start over. Then I'd somehow check the rim for
    > roundness. Hold it beside another wheel? Sounds like it's not round to begin with.

    It was - I strapped it to the wheel with the knackered (wornthrough) rim, and just moved everything
    over. The old rim had a 1 mm flat spot, and that showed when they were fastened together.

    > If it's not round maybe you could return it. if OK try again. Here's a good guide.
    >
    > http://www.execulink.com/~dtierney/wmc/faq.htm#WTQ1

    Cheers!

    Shaun aRe
     
  6. David Kunz

    David Kunz Guest

    Shaun Rimmer wrote:

    > David Kunz <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...

    >>Shaun Rimmer wrote:

    >>>Hi folksies,

    >>> Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered wheel rim. I swapped it
    >>> out for a new one last night, and that went smoothly. It came time to true
    >>> and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
    >>> much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem came when I checked it for
    >>> radial trueness - it wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.

    >>>I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or so mm, but couldn't get
    >>>it any better (was late, bad light, awkward position, tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to
    >>>do this before, and even though I've read some on the subject, found it a little difficult to
    >>>get my head around well.

    >>>I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any tips to make this go
    >>>smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I prolly won't find in the basic literature -
    >>>I don't have a truing stand, or even a work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent over
    >>>an upturned bike, just using my eyes, the brake blocks, and a metal bar across the underside of
    >>>the chain stays to gauge lateral and radial trueness.

    >>>Any help _much_ appreciated!

    >>I'm not an expert, but I've built about 8 wheels (so far :)).

    > That's nearer to expert than me by 8 wheels ',;~}

    >>What I do is radial truing first, then every 3 or so latteral adjustments, I recheck and adjust
    >>the radial.

    > OK, thanks for that, but how do you know which spokes to tightenand which to loosen to correct a
    > radial misalignment?

    The vast majority of my radial adjustments have been to tighten to remove a high spot. Even when I'm
    building and not truing, I start with the high side and tighten -- often over wide areas.

    To bring in a high spot, you need to equally tighten 2 spokes on each side. I check the tension of
    the spokes across the high spot and about 2 or 3 on each side of it. If I find a loose one or
    pair, I start with a 1/4 turn on those and see how that changes the high spot -- continuing to
    work lose pairs until the spot is in true or the spokes are evenly tensioned across the high spot.
    If the spokes are about equal through that area, I take 1/4 turn on a pair of spokes in the center
    of the high spot and if the high spot is wide, I contine outward on both sides across it --
    checking for truness with each couple of pairs. Towards the end of truing, I find that an 1/8 turn
    is all it takes.

    For low spots, loosen pairs of spokes in a similar fashion -- starting with tight spokes and then
    spreading out the loosening. I'm not very good with this side -- it's much easier to remove a high
    spot :). I once loosened a good 1/4 of my wheel and retrued because I couldn't get rid of a low
    spot. <sigh>.

    >>I also work in small changes -- no more than 1/4 turn (per spoke) per adjustment.

    > Yeah - did that.

    >>And remember to check tension as you true (pluck the spokes and listen to the tone) -- you need
    >>to balance loosening one side vs. tighteneing the other vs. working with a loose or tight spoke
    >>that may be 3 or 4 away from the out of alignment spot!

    > OK......

    >>AND, (finally) stress relieve every so often as the wheel comes up to tension and you'll have
    >>less problems.

    > Cheers - I'm actually working with the spokes that were already on, is this gonna lessen the need
    > for s/relieving?

    I still do it. Makes less of a difference, but with the wheel in a stand it doesn't take long -- I
    haven't done truing on the bike in quite a while (since I switched to discs 2 years ago :)). In this
    case, it reseats the nipples which may have shifted slightly during the truing. I also take the rim
    and push hard to try to warp it to do the same thing. That way I don't have to do a small fixup
    after a ride or two.

    >>David

    > Thanks David.

    > Shaun aRe

    David
     
  7. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    David Kunz <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Shaun Rimmer wrote:
    >
    > > David Kunz <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    >
    > >>Shaun Rimmer wrote:
    >
    > >>>Hi folksies,
    >
    > >>> Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered wheel rim. I swapped it
    > >>> out for a new one last night, and that went smoothly. It came time to true
    > >>> and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
    > >>> much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem came when I checked it for
    > >>> radial trueness - it wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.
    >
    > >>>I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or so mm, but couldn't
    > >>>get it any better (was late, bad light, awkward position, tired me etc.). Now, I have never
    > >>>had to do this before, and even though I've read some on the subject, found it a little
    > >>>difficult to get my head around well.
    >
    > >>>I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any tips to make this go
    > >>>smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I prolly won't find in the basic literature
    > >>>- I don't have a truing stand, or even a work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent
    > >>>over an upturned bike, just using my eyes, the brake blocks, and a metal bar across the
    > >>>underside of the chain stays to gauge lateral and radial trueness.
    >
    > >>>Any help _much_ appreciated!
    >
    > >>I'm not an expert, but I've built about 8 wheels (so far :)).
    >
    > > That's nearer to expert than me by 8 wheels ',;~}
    >
    > >>What I do is radial truing first, then every 3 or so latteral adjustments, I recheck and adjust
    > >>the radial.
    >
    > > OK, thanks for that, but how do you know which spokes to tightenand which to loosen to correct
    > > a radial misalignment?
    >
    > The vast majority of my radial adjustments have been to tighten to remove a high spot. Even when
    > I'm building and not truing, I start with the high side and tighten -- often over wide areas.
    >
    > To bring in a high spot, you need to equally tighten 2 spokes on each side. I check the tension of
    > the spokes across the high spot and about 2 or 3 on each side of it. If I find a loose one or
    > pair, I start with a 1/4 turn on those and see how that changes the high spot -- continuing to
    > work lose pairs until the spot is in true or the spokes are evenly tensioned across the high spot.
    > If the spokes are about equal through that area, I take 1/4 turn on a pair of spokes in the center
    > of the high spot and if the high spot is wide, I contine outward on both sides across it --
    > checking for truness with each couple of pairs. Towards the end of truing, I find that an 1/8 turn
    > is all it takes.
    >
    > For low spots, loosen pairs of spokes in a similar fashion -- starting with tight spokes and then
    > spreading out the loosening. I'm not very good with this side -- it's much easier to remove a high
    > spot :). I once loosened a good 1/4 of my wheel and retrued because I couldn't get rid of a low
    > spot. <sigh>.
    >
    > >>I also work in small changes -- no more than 1/4 turn (per spoke) per adjustment.
    >
    > > Yeah - did that.
    >
    > >>And remember to check tension as you true (pluck the spokes and listen to the tone) -- you need
    > >>to balance loosening one side vs. tighteneing the other vs. working with a loose or tight spoke
    > >>that may be 3 or 4 away from the out of alignment spot!
    >
    > > OK......
    >
    > >>AND, (finally) stress relieve every so often as the wheel comes up to tension and you'll have
    > >>less problems.
    >
    > > Cheers - I'm actually working with the spokes that were already on, is this gonna lessen the
    > > need for s/relieving?
    >
    > I still do it. Makes less of a difference, but with the wheel in a stand it doesn't take long -- I
    > haven't done truing on the bike in quite a while (since I switched to discs 2 years ago :)). In
    > this case, it reseats the nipples which may have shifted slightly during the truing. I also take
    > the rim and push hard to try to warp it to do the same thing. That way I don't have to do a small
    > fixup after a ride or two.
    >
    > >>David
    >
    > > Thanks David.
    >
    > > Shaun aRe
    >
    > David

    Thanks again David - taken on board and started to be digested.

    Shaun aRe
     
  8. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or so mm, but couldn't get it
    >any better (was late, bad light, awkward position, tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do this
    >before, and even though I've read some on the subject, found it a little difficult to get my head
    >around well.

    I agree with the other poster who suggested taking the wheel back down and starting over. It's been
    my experience that you CAN force a really out-of-true wheel back into submission, but because of all
    the interactions going on, it's going to be a long, tedious process.

    Here's what I'd recommend.

    1) Back off all the nipples until you can see a good number of threads.
    2) Tighten them up until the same number of threads show (normally you can get the nipple to obscure
    the threads without getting too much tension on the spoke).

    Normally, the above steps will net a wheel that's pretty round and pretty true. The important thing
    is it will provide a very good starting point to begin truing the wheel, which should be a lot less
    work than taking it from where you are now (3mm runout? Yikes!).

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  9. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or
    so
    > >mm, but couldn't get it any better (was late, bad light, awkward
    position,
    > >tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do this before, and even though I've read some on the
    > >subject, found it a little difficult to get my head around well.
    >
    > I agree with the other poster who suggested taking the wheel back down and starting over.

    Arrrgggg - yer just takin' the piss now - tryin' to get yer own back because I disagreed with ya ;-|

    > It's been my experience that you CAN force a really out-of-true wheel back into submission, but
    > because of all the interactions going on, it's going to be a long, tedious process.
    >
    > Here's what I'd recommend.
    >
    > 1) Back off all the nipples until you can see a good number of threads.
    > 2) Tighten them up until the same number of threads show (normally you can get the nipple to
    > obscure the threads without getting too much tension on the spoke).
    >
    > Normally, the above steps will net a wheel that's pretty round and pretty true. The important
    > thing is it will provide a very good starting point to begin truing the wheel, which should be a
    > lot less work than taking it from where you are now (3mm runout? Yikes!).

    Cheers Mark - not sure the 3 mm is accurate - might be a _lot_ less. I'll take it all on board, and
    may well do as you and DTW suggest - prolly give it a few minutes first. It may just be I'd had
    enough by 10 last night, and things looked worse than they are.

    I did start off with all the spokes wound on the same as each other in fact, maybe I was a little
    inaccurate somewhere along the line....

    Thanks again.

    Shaun aRe - Maybe 4 1/2 ltr cans of 5% strength Danish Export beer wasn't enough for a job of this
    calibre? I'll try more tonight....
     
  10. John G

    John G Guest

    I'd start over by completely slackening the entire wheel, (replace any worn nipples) and wind
    it up again.
     
  11. Michael Dart

    Michael Dart Guest

    "John G" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I'd start over by completely slackening the entire wheel, (replace any worn nipples) and wind it
    > up again.
    >

    When you wind it up again give each nipple only a half turn until you get a fair amount of tension
    on it. Keep checking for trueness as you go and adjust accordingly. Sometimes the spokes are
    slightly different lengths 1-2 threads diff. This is where a tensiometer comes in handy in making
    the decision of which spoke to tighten or which to loosen. But just use the 'tone' which is good.
    Hell for your first wheel you didn't do bad at all. ;^)

    Mike
     
  12. Bill Wheeler

    Bill Wheeler Guest

    On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 09:43:49 -0000, "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote:

    [snip Rimmer's Knackered Wheel Post]

    Get a truing stand even though you don't need one.

    Believe it our not it does make things easier.

    In general:

    You'll need to figure out if you have a high spot or a low spot.

    If it's a low spot, start by loosening the spokes in that sections by a 1/4 of a turn.

    If it's a high spot do the opposite.

    Of course after this has been done you should re-check the tension of all the spokes. Use the tonal
    method, works perfectly.

    To turn tighten or loosen a spoke 1/4, turn the nipple a full half then back it off by a quarter.
    This will un-bind the spoke and give you a more persistent tension.

    Pre-stress the wheel.

    Check trueness and adjust accordingly.

    Repeat this process endlessly until wheel is true.

    Peace,

    Bill(finds great peace in wheels)Wheeler

    The mind serves properly as a window glass rather than as a reflector, that is, the mind should give
    an immediate view instead of an interpretation of the world.
    :-]
     
  13. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    John G <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I'd start over by completely slackening the entire wheel, (replace any worn nipples) and wind it
    > up again.

    Cheers John - I managed to snap a spoke hacksirley (errmmm, trying to replace a bad nipple, turned
    it the wrong frewaking way...), got some more spokes. Slackedned all of the spokes off, replaced
    busted and any suspect spokes, started again. 2 hours later, wheel true, and no more that 1/3 mm
    radial drift, stress relieved and tensioned up etc. Rode it a little, did a few drops and jumps,
    generally bounced on the sucker for all it was worth, still exactly as it started - nice and true.

    I'll see how it holds up overtime ',;~}

    Thanks everyone for your tips! Much appreciated.

    Shaun aRe
     
  14. Shaun Rimmer wrote:
    > John G <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>I'd start over by completely slackening the entire wheel, (replace any worn nipples) and wind it
    >>up again.
    >
    >
    > Cheers John - I managed to snap a spoke hacksirley (errmmm, trying to replace a bad nipple, turned
    > it the wrong frewaking way...), got some more spokes. Slackedned all of the spokes off, replaced
    > busted and any suspect spokes, started again. 2 hours later, wheel true, and no more that 1/3 mm
    > radial drift, stress relieved and tensioned up etc. Rode it a little, did a few drops and jumps,
    > generally bounced on the sucker for all it was worth, still exactly as it started - nice and true.
    >
    > I'll see how it holds up overtime ',;~}
    >

    Congradulations, you are almost a wheel-builder! Next step is lacing and once you got that down,
    Bob's your Uncle.
     
  15. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    ClydesdaleMTB <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Shaun Rimmer wrote:
    > > John G <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >>I'd start over by completely slackening the entire wheel, (replace any worn nipples) and wind it
    > >>up again.
    > >
    > >
    > > Cheers John - I managed to snap a spoke hacksirley (errmmm, trying to replace a bad nipple,
    > > turned it the wrong frewaking way...), got some
    more
    > > spokes. Slackedned all of the spokes off, replaced busted and any
    suspect
    > > spokes, started again. 2 hours later, wheel true, and no more that 1/3
    mm
    > > radial drift, stress relieved and tensioned up etc. Rode it a little,
    did a
    > > few drops and jumps, generally bounced on the sucker for all it was
    worth,
    > > still exactly as it started - nice and true.
    > >
    > > I'll see how it holds up overtime ',;~}
    > >
    >
    > Congradulations,

    Cheers John.

    > you are almost a wheel-builder!

    I cannot say I enjoyed it. I sat outside in the sun on a chair, bike USD in front of me, thinking
    this would be a nice way to proceed. All the tools (incl. beer) close at hand. It was cold though,
    quite, so I ended up with sore hands. I also ended up with a sore back from bending over the
    freaking thing (again).

    > Next step is lacing and once you got that down, Bob's your Uncle.

    Tony, Barry and Brian are my uncles. I have no intention of gaining an uncle 'bob'......

    Shaun aRe - sure it'll be more fun by the time it gets easier.........
     
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