Wheel Truing Tutorial

[Tom Sherman]

[email protected] aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> ...
> I think the concept of pre-stressing has been here often, as in
> pre-stressed concrete that has much in common with pre-stressed spokes,
> except that concrete cannot support tension and spokes cannot support
> compression without being pre-stressed.
>
That is not entirely true. When a compressive load is applied to the top
of a slab over a limited area, does it not result in tensile stresses in
the bottom portion of the slab below the "neutral axis"? And do concrete
pavement slabs generally fail from fracture due to tension in the bottom
of the slab from a single load, or from fatigue from many load cycles?
The answer should be obvious to anyone who know about pavement engineering.

Fiber reinforced concrete is not pre-stressed, and the fibers do
increase tensile strength (as evidenced by the fibers increasing the
rupture modulus for a given mix).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[datakoll]

the idea was, asking concrete to function as a tensile member is as
useless as asking a spoke for function as a compressive memember
without serious addtion

 

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>
> the idea was, asking concrete to function as a tensile member is as
> useless as asking a spoke for function as a compressive memember
> without serious addtion

gene needs to be more pedantic.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[datakoll]

duh

 

[Tom Sherman]

[email protected] aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> Michael Baldwin wrote:
>
>> Alex, I think your tutorials in general, would inspire novice tuners
>> to at least give it a try. If that's your main objective, your
>> "tutes" are on target. No bullseyes but definitely on target.
>
>> One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
>> side versus right or left.
>
> Oh? Why do you prefer obscure jargon when left and right are
> unambiguous. This use becomes worse because, being wordy, it leads to
> acronyms that are more obscure, DS/NDS. This is part of the "sloppy
> English is good" thread on this newsgroup.
>
Note that not ALL bicycles have the drive-train on the right hand side
(relative to the direction the rider faces).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> duh

Uh

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[Michael Baldwin]

>From: [email protected]
>Michael Baldwin wrote:
>Alex, I think your tutorials in general, would inspire novice
>tuners to at least give it a try. If that's
>your main objective, your "tutes" are on target. No bullseyes
>but definitely on target.
>One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
>side versus right or left.
>Oh? Why do you prefer obscure jargon when left and
>right are unambiguous. This use becomes worse because, being wordy,
>it leads to acronyms that are more obscure, DS/NDS. This
>is part of the "sloppy English is good" thread on
>this newsgroup.
>Jobst Brandt

Alex, I thought my reply to your posting may draw the censorius
comments of Jobst Brandt and I apologize.

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

 

[datakoll]

no seriously, what Jay wants to do is teach wheel trueing and he's
succeeding.
I try it here. I could just as well walk in front of a bus.

 

[Skip]

> Because JB is snotty and pedantic.

Yes, but Jobst also knows his stuff cold and is a true expert on the bicycle
wheel.
You won't find a better "expert". Sheldon Brown probably was more diverse,
but I'm not sure he was more expert than Jobst in Jobst's field(s).

- Skip

 

[datakoll]

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b...-keywords=CARTOON+COMPUTER+GRAPHICS&x=17&y=18

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:49:29 -0800 (PST), BicycleTutor
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Feb 28, 4:29 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> On 28 Feb 2008 23:33:31 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Dear Jobst,
>>
>> Other posters may not know that you're mistaken, so it's worth
>> explaining yet again.
>>
>> As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, there are stunt bicycles
>> being sold today with the drive on the left side, not the right:
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/adfadf06467f4d44
>>
>> And left-hand drive bicycles were made in the past--here's the Ivel
>> safety with its front spoon brake on the right and its drive on the
>> non-traditional left side:
>>
>> http://www.oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=fdbdown.asp?707&mod=&mak=Ivel
>>
>> In any case, what matters is which side has the drive, not which side
>> it happens to be, so drive and non-drive are always accurate and
>> require no one to think about how a bare wheel would go into a frame.
>>
>> Come to think of it, things would get rather tricky with a flip-flop
>> hub, wouldn't they? Drive and non-drive side change, just as left and
>> right do.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>Thanks Carl for the clear explanation. This was starting to get
>confusing, but I'm now certain the DS/NDS way of explaining things
>makes more sense.

Dear Alex,

Of course, both sides of some early bicycles are drive-side.

The Lattimer treadle-to-chain-drive on both sides, which wasn't too
successful commercially:
http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg

The 10-speed twin-treadle-to-chain Levocyclette, which was much more
successful:
http://pie.touny.free.fr/vtt/vieux_velos/mec_levo.jpg
http://www.automag.be/IMG/jpg/Levocyclette.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/34nqih3.jpg

Here's the Wiki entry on left-hand drive BMX freestyle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-flop_hub#BMX.2FSingle_Speed_Bicycles

It points out something else that I forgot. Crossover tandems put the
timing chain on the left side.

Which in turn reminds me that Howard and Rompelberg both used
crossover jackshafts in their land-speed records, with the front
sprocket on the left side, connected by jackshaft to the middle
sprocket on the right side.

Howard:
http://www.bikecult.com/works/chainring/jhoward.jpg

Rompelberg:
http://i12.tinypic.com/6tk537q.jpg

And, of course, motorcycles usually put the drive chain on the left
side, not the right.

This may be because the earliest "motorcycles" had a bicycle drive on
one side and a giant belt drive for the engine on the other:
http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1530.htm


But some old motorcycles had the bicycle-pedal _and_ engine drive on
the left side:
http://home.ama-cycle.org/membersonly/museum/images/b9/pump_600.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[daveornee]

I hope the group finds this week's wheel truing tutorial useful. I
tried to cover all the aspects of truing without running overtime. I'd
love to hear what you think...

http://bicycletutor.com/wheel-truing/

The lubing idea at the rim (or eyelet)/spoke interface is good, if there isn't already fresh lube at those interfaces; but I think it is an over simplification to expect no rotation of the tensioned spoke with or without lube at the nipple/spoke thread interface. You need to address how to deal with the spoke turning by some method of overshoot and back-off (some use white-out or a Sharpie to mark untensioned spokes for a reference)or removing tension from the area by rim manipulation so wind-up doesn't happen.
Your approach to correcting for lateral or radial errors is too generic. Plucking the spokes in the area of interest will let you know which one(s) should be loosened or tightened to diminish the error and come closer to getting spoke tension balance while improving the true. Crossing spokes and spokes at 180 degrees are changed the most when any tension change is made.
Side loading the wheel in steps with careful but significant force will help stabilize the build as well as temporarily unload the down-side spokes such that if there is any residual wind-up ... it will be removed. Barnette's method of stabilization works and also does a good job of stress relieving.
Using tone as only a relative indication of spoke tension as different gauge spokes will have the same tone with significant difference in tension.
Use of a truing stand like the Park TS-2 that looks like what you used in the video is a good idea. The feelers on that stand can be positioned to indicate both lateral and radial true at the same time for viewing results and needs for adjustment.... as each any spoke nipple adjustment will change true in both directions while also changing tension.
I have considered putting out a video with similar objectives but each time I write the scipt I decide it needs revising.

 

[[email protected]]

Tom Sherman wrote:

>>> Alex, I think your tutorials in general, would inspire novice tuners
>>> to at least give it a try. If that's your main objective, your
>>> "tutes" are on target. No bullseyes but definitely on target.

>>> One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
>>> side versus right or left.

>> Oh? Why do you prefer obscure jargon when left and right are
>> unambiguous. This use becomes worse because, being wordy, it leads to
>> acronyms that are more obscure, DS/NDS. This is part of the "sloppy
>> English is good" thread on this newsgroup.

> Note that not ALL bicycles have the drive-train on the right hand side
> (relative to the direction the rider faces).

When someone is building a non-standard wheel, he'll know that it is
one and for that rider there are other problems. As we noted in
recent threads, contributors to this newsgroup knew where their chain
was and mounted and dismounted accordingly.

Pointing out that there are exceptions doesn't make jargon worthwhile.
How many road and MTB riders have left hand drive on this forum? I
doubt there are no more than two at best. Besides, such special wheels
may or may not have standard dish, such as BMX that generally uses
symmetric wheels.

You need not feel personally insulted about having used DS/NDS because
I find it less useful than right and left. Responses have such a
defensive ring these days, be that about proper English or whatever.

Jobst Brandt

 

[[email protected]]

Tom Sherman wrote:

>> ... I think the concept of pre-stressing has been here often, as
>> in pre-stressed concrete that has much in common with pre-stressed
>> spokes, except that concrete cannot support tension and spokes
>> cannot support compression without being pre-stressed.

> That is not entirely true. When a compressive load is applied to
> the top of a slab over a limited area, does it not result in tensile
> stresses in the bottom portion of the slab below the "neutral axis"?

Bridges and other structural beams have tensile preload rods internally
to insure that the entire beam is in compression even though most of
the tensile elements are in the foot of the cross section. The
condition you cite would cause cracking (failure) but structures are
not designed or loaded that way if they follow prudent procedures and
of course the building code.

> And do concrete pavement slabs generally fail from fracture due to
> tension in the bottom of the slab from a single load, or from
> fatigue from many load cycles? The answer should be obvious to
> anyone who know about pavement engineering.

They fail for insufficient reinforcement (steel) but they are not
pre-stressed in roads I have seen built other than bridges, and they
were pre-stressed.

> Fiber reinforced concrete is not pre-stressed, and the fibers do
> increase tensile strength (as evidenced by the fibers increasing the
> rupture modulus for a given mix).

That's a composite and I am not familiar with that use. It seems
highly difficult, considering the elastic modulus of stone and fibers
one might use. I suppose asbestos might be a candidate. I don't know.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Ron George]

On Feb 28, 2:04 pm, BicycleTutor <[email protected]> wrote:
> I hope the group finds this week's wheel truing tutorial useful. I
> tried to cover all the aspects of truing without running overtime. I'd
> love to hear what you think...
>
> http://bicycletutor.com/wheel-truing/

I was aware of your website and threw a link in my blog. Great work,
keep it up.


Ron
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

 

[jim beam]

[email protected] wrote:
> Alexander Ramon wrote:
>
>>> Whow? Pre-stressing? Not stress-relieving?
>
>> After truing, the spokes will get stressed when you take the first
>> ride, and you'll have to re-adjust anyways. Therefore, you should
>> pre-stress them beforehand. Or you can call it 'stress-relieving'
>> if you wish... I think most people get the meaning.
>
> What causes the stress when you first ride it, stress that wasn't
> there before, when it was freshly built? I think you have an
> incorrect visualization of stress in wheels. Bicycle wheels are pre
> stressed structures, an effect that enables their spokes to withstand
> compressive loads.

who cares about the spokes? spokes would be useless without rims, and
rims are the things that keep a wheel together, even with slack spokes.


> Tensioning spokes is where pre-stressing occurs.
>
> Stress relieving is performed to prevent spokes from fatigue failures
> caused by load cycles with every rotation when in use.

wot? no assertion that it reduces metallurgical "residual stress"?


> Reducing peak
> stress in a freshly spoked wheel is an important operation to make
> wheels durable.
>
>>> Really? Two turns? Not a turn and a half? Or one and
> one-quarter?
>
>> In this regard, each wheel is different, depending on how many
>> sprockets are on the rear cluster or freewheel. I've given the
>> average as there was not enough time to be more specific about every
>> type of wheel.
>
> This can be described in a generic way and is so in "the Bicycle Wheel"
> where the process is explained in plain language.

rubbish - that book contains a bunch of b.s. "materials theory" that is
not just "slightly wrong", it's outright misleading. b.s. is not "plain
language".



>
>>> Hopeless.....
>
>> You might be missing the point... If this tutorial helps one single
>> person true their own wheel, then it is far from hopeless.
>
> I think that is generous criterion.
>

i think you need to correct the errors in your book if you want to keep
on trying to sell it.

 

[jim beam]

[email protected] wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>>>> Alex, I think your tutorials in general, would inspire novice tuners
>>>> to at least give it a try. If that's your main objective, your
>>>> "tutes" are on target. No bullseyes but definitely on target.
>
>>>> One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
>>>> side versus right or left.
>
>>> Oh? Why do you prefer obscure jargon when left and right are
>>> unambiguous. This use becomes worse because, being wordy, it leads to
>>> acronyms that are more obscure, DS/NDS. This is part of the "sloppy
>>> English is good" thread on this newsgroup.
>
>> Note that not ALL bicycles have the drive-train on the right hand side
>> (relative to the direction the rider faces).
>
> When someone is building a non-standard wheel, he'll know that it is
> one and for that rider there are other problems. As we noted in
> recent threads, contributors to this newsgroup knew where their chain
> was and mounted and dismounted accordingly.
>
> Pointing out that there are exceptions doesn't make jargon worthwhile.
> How many road and MTB riders have left hand drive on this forum? I
> doubt there are no more than two at best. Besides, such special wheels
> may or may not have standard dish, such as BMX that generally uses
> symmetric wheels.
>
> You need not feel personally insulted

how about when someone asserts they are able to cure metal fatigue, even
when it's untrue? being ignorant of the facts as to why you /can't/ do
something doesn't mean you /can/ do it.


> about having used DS/NDS because
> I find it less useful than right and left. Responses have such a
> defensive ring these days, be that about proper English or whatever.

not as defensive as someone that keeps trying to demean the discipline
of which they are so ignorant.

 

[jim beam]

Skip wrote:
>
>> Because JB is snotty and pedantic.
>
> Yes, but Jobst also knows his stuff cold and is a true expert on the
> bicycle wheel.

actually, he's not. he writes /like/ he is, but if you know the facts,
you'll understand why he is in reality, just a bullshitter trying to
sell a book.


> You won't find a better "expert".

there's any number of qualified engineers that understand pre-stressed
structures better. and there's any number of materials people that
understand the difference between materials that strain age and those
that don't. jobst thinks that pre-stress increases strength - all it
does is borrow from one component to another - and that he can eliminate
fatigue from a material where there is no metallurgical mechanism that
allows it. that ain't no "expert".


> Sheldon Brown probably was more
> diverse, but I'm not sure he was more expert than Jobst in Jobst's
> field(s).

see above. sheldon was an artisan of considerable skill and experience.
jobst is just an ego seeking a b.s. outlet with the lowest possible
risk of detection. what better than an audience of non-engineers?

 

[Bill Sornson]

Skip wrote:
>> Because JB is snotty and pedantic.
>
> Yes, but Jobst also knows his stuff cold and is a true expert on the
> bicycle wheel.
> You won't find a better "expert". Sheldon Brown probably was more
> diverse, but I'm not sure he was more expert than Jobst in Jobst's
> field(s).
> - Skip

Well, snipping his snotty, needless remark sure bolsters your case. (Hint:
it was not constructive or informative; it was merely a cheap shot*.)

*if he wrote more than the OP quoted, then perhaps I'm wrong. I plonked JB
long ago because he's often dishonest and even more often hypocritical.

 

[datakoll]

JB's style is of teaching methods.

illustration for graphic use a teaching tool.

nipple tighten nipple loosen...

rim shown in hand external circumference, zoom in, see nipple head
inside rim, say nipple tighten turned right , clockwise.

clockwise arrow appears around nipple.

turn rim viewing from hub position to inside rim circumference, zoom
toward nipple/spoke junction,

clockwise other side arrow duplicates self, you're now seeing two
arrows either side rim, second 200 degree arrow around nipple spoke
junction.

view changes to bent rim, of 6 nipple section centered. comment.
arrows appear, arrows turn, rim unbends (as a center turnout in a
later segment). flip rim over and show both sides arrows turning with
rim unbending.....

go on to do the same with Quad retruing, hub centering of the egg
shaped rim...