Wheelbuild question(s)

[[email protected]]

Robert Jones writes:

>> DT spokes are supplied in 1mm increments. Not that that makes spoke
>> length ultra-critical, but I wonder why you feel the need to sow
>> misinformation.

> It is quite hard to find DT Competition spokes in 259mm, and I have
> seen several places list that they size these in "even lengths up to
> 260, and millimeter sizes past that" or some such.

> I imagine that 259mm spokes might only come in boxes of 100, if one
> wanted to mail-order them.

> I am getting the idea that spoke length is not ultra-critical.

Locally, we once had bicycle shops that carried only even number DT
spoke lengths and the other only odd lengths. I just take 100 of what
is closest in stock at Palo Alto Bicycles. They carry a good
assortment and if they don't have it, I go to the Bicycle Outfitter (a
bit farther. I'm sure you can get it from some of the contributors to
this newsgroup like: Yellow Jersey (Muzi), Harris Cyclery (Brown),
Chain Reaction (Jacoubowsky), etc.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]

 

[Jeff Wills]

[email protected] (Jonesy) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
<Jobst's advice snipped>
> Ahh, OK. Thank you.
>
> From my calculations, it seems as though I actually can use a single
> length of spoke all around (!!!) Since all the calculated lengths are
> within 1.3mm of one another (259.7mm - 261.0mm), it seems that I can
> get away with a box of 260mm spokes.
>

Yes and no. When I started building wheels, I used the same size
spokes on both sides and ground off the excess (this only works with
older single-wall rims and a narrow grinding wheel). When I started
building better wheels, I found that shorter spokes on the right side
of the rear wheel means that the wheel practically dishes itself.

All you really have to do is screw the nipples on to the top of the
spoke threads, then turn all the nipples the same amount until you've
gotten to final tension. Unequal length spokes means that the dish of
the wheel is already built in.

(In reality, I check for roundness, straightness and dish often as I'm
tensioning the spokes. I rarely need to make corrections during the
final third of the tensioning process- tensioning the spokes equally
in small increments seems to avoid throwing the rim out of true until
it's close to its yield point.)

Jeff

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

UCE-<< sapim are typically available in 2mm increments - please note that i
didn't state /all/ manufacturers. >><BR><BR>

It should be noted that Sapim and all other 'manufacturers' make spokes in 1mm
increments. Sapim US distributor carries only 2mm increments, which is why we
don't use them.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Jonesy-<< It is quite hard to find DT Competition spokes in 259mm, and I have
seen several places list that they size these in "even lengths up to
260, and millimeter sizes past that" or some such. >><BR><BR>

Bike part distributors are not the best spoke suppliers. We use Paceline, whuch
has all spokes from about 220 thru 320, in 1mm increments.

I normally carry 14/15 from 258 thru 304, 1mm increments.

I can also but single spokes if I wish. MO does not the standard make.


Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Jobst-<< I'm sure you can get it from some of the contributors to
this newsgroup like: Yellow Jersey (Muzi), Harris Cyclery (Brown),
Chain Reaction (Jacoubowsky), etc. >><BR><BR>

......................

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Jonesy]

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Robert Jones writes:
>
> >> DT spokes are supplied in 1mm increments. Not that that makes spoke
> >> length ultra-critical, but I wonder why you feel the need to sow
> >> misinformation.
>
> > It is quite hard to find DT Competition spokes in 259mm, and I have
> > seen several places list that they size these in "even lengths up to
> > 260, and millimeter sizes past that" or some such.
>
> > I imagine that 259mm spokes might only come in boxes of 100, if one
> > wanted to mail-order them.
>
> > I am getting the idea that spoke length is not ultra-critical.
>
> Locally, we once had bicycle shops that carried only even number DT
> spoke lengths and the other only odd lengths. I just take 100 of what
> is closest in stock at Palo Alto Bicycles. They carry a good
> assortment and if they don't have it, I go to the Bicycle Outfitter (a
> bit farther. I'm sure you can get it from some of the contributors to
> this newsgroup like: Yellow Jersey (Muzi), Harris Cyclery (Brown),
> Chain Reaction (Jacoubowsky), etc.

I would rather go this route than through one of the big MO places.
Chain Reaction is out - shipping across the Pond is a little dear for
me! One kilogram costs over $30! To be expected, I suppose.

Now, if I couldn't get it anywhere else...

Last question, I promise:

What size spoke wrench goes on these nipples? I'm guessing 3.2mm
(0.127"), but that's one thing I'd really rather avoid - rounding the
nipples with a poorly-chosen spoke wrench. I like the Pedro's one -
it grips on three sides. The one I have used up to now is a
multi-size guy that does a decent job, but I prefer the "proper tool
for a properly-done job."

Thanks for all the help,
--
R.F. Jones

 

[Jonesy]

jim beam <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jonesy wrote:
> > jim beam <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >>Jonesy wrote:
> >>
> >>>jim beam <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<%[email protected]>...
> >>>
> >>
> >>it's practically the same as the x517, so use that figure. if you want
> >>to recalculate yourself, mavic list the x618's e.r.d. as 539mm.
> >
> >
> > Really? Where? I got 541 as the ERD. A couple of mm wrong - me
> > buying too long, and having an ERD that's actually smaller than what I
> > used to do my calculations might screw my stuff up!
>
> got it from a pdf on the mavictech web site a while back - it's now
> password protected or i'd give you the url. i've not had a problem with
> the results that figure gives. the spokes come dead level with the
> bottom of the slot in the nipple head.

I got mine from DT's website calculator.

In any case, 258/260 it is.

Now, here's the kicker - this weekend, I will be in Portland, OR. I
would guess that SOME shop there would carry DT Comp 14/15s in
258/260mm. I just have to call around.

(Unless someone knows something they can tell me, LOL.)


> > I am going by my previous builds, and by what I have read. Your info
> > doesn't change anything, because I do not know how it applies.
>
> not trying to be rude - /my/ intuition depends on the data available
> [and whether it's accurate].

I realize that. It seems strange to me that an equal-size-flange
hubset, with some offset from the left for disk rotor mounting, and
some offset from the right in the rear for a 9-speed cassette would
work out such that the spoke lengths all around are within 1.3mm of
each other. This is not intuitively obvious from my previous
experiences! (259.7-261.0mm)


> >
> > My major concern is them sticking out the bottom past the nipple such
> > that they might be a hassle for keeping tubes inflated. Stan's
> > NoTubes would be a way around that, but I would just prefer getting
> > the correct-length spokes to begin with, LOL.
>
> ymmv, but my 258/260 spokes in combination with that model hub & x618's
> worked just dandy.

Real-world build-up is what I like! Here's an unrelated question:
have you marked your front skewer and drop-out for detection of
rotation/skewer self-unscrewing? Neither one of my disk-brake
equipped MTBs have moved in the slightest.

Thanks for the info,
--
Robert Jones.

 

[jim beam]

Jonesy wrote:
<snip>
>
> Here's an unrelated question:
> have you marked your front skewer and drop-out for detection of
> rotation/skewer self-unscrewing? Neither one of my disk-brake
> equipped MTBs have moved in the slightest.

no. i've never bothered because i've never had a problem. i posted
some pics with carl fogel a while back:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/Img_3199.jpg

[carl, thanks for keeping.]

no evidence of movement and no loosening that i can tell. but i'm using
shimano skewers and based on my ongoing bad experience with an open cam
seat post clamp, i'd never use an open cam skewer to fasten something
important like a wheel.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Jonesy wrote:

> [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>Robert Jones writes:
>>
>>
>>>>DT spokes are supplied in 1mm increments. Not that that makes spoke
>>>>length ultra-critical, but I wonder why you feel the need to sow
>>>>misinformation.
>>
>>
>>
>>>It is quite hard to find DT Competition spokes in 259mm, and I have
>>>seen several places list that they size these in "even lengths up to
>>>260, and millimeter sizes past that" or some such.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I imagine that 259mm spokes might only come in boxes of 100, if one
>>>wanted to mail-order them.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I am getting the idea that spoke length is not ultra-critical.
>>
>>Locally, we once had bicycle shops that carried only even number DT
>>spoke lengths and the other only odd lengths. I just take 100 of what
>>is closest in stock at Palo Alto Bicycles. They carry a good
>>assortment and if they don't have it, I go to the Bicycle Outfitter (a
>>bit farther. I'm sure you can get it from some of the contributors to
>>this newsgroup like: Yellow Jersey (Muzi), Harris Cyclery (Brown),
>>Chain Reaction (Jacoubowsky), etc.
>
>
> I would rather go this route than through one of the big MO places.
> Chain Reaction is out - shipping across the Pond is a little dear for
> me! One kilogram costs over $30! To be expected, I suppose.
>
> Now, if I couldn't get it anywhere else...

The Chain Reaction Cycles [1] Jobst Brandt is referring to is located in
California, USA (near San Francisco and San Jose), and is not to be
confused with Chain Reaction Cycles in the UK [2], the Chain Reaction
Cycles in New Zealand [3], or Chain Reaction Bicycles near Toronto,
Canada [4].

[1] <http://www.chainreaction.com/>
[2] <http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/default.asp>
[3] <http://www.chainreaction.co.nz/>
[4] <http://www.crbicycles.com/>

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

 

[Tom Sherman]

jim beam wrote:

> Jonesy wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>
>> Here's an unrelated question: have you marked your front skewer and
>> drop-out for detection of
>> rotation/skewer self-unscrewing? Neither one of my disk-brake
>> equipped MTBs have moved in the slightest.
>
>
> no. i've never bothered because i've never had a problem. i posted
> some pics with carl fogel a while back:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/Img_3199.jpg ...

I see the dropout end of a fork and a tire in the background, but
nothing that would appear to be Mr. Fogel in the picture.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

 

[g.daniels]

The LBS or the spoke manufacturer's website has the spoke calculator.
Go with the LBS then compare to the spoke people.
Buy a handful of 5mm too long and 5mm too short. The rims are usually
elliptical and need be brought into round.
This takes patience, intelligence, planning and planning
memory-strategy like 3-d chess. 4-d chess!
The best advice I heard, so far, was from the LBS expert: the just
seated nipple level-that's emphasized by writers-is adjusted FROM with
tweaks on the nipples. We're talking what? .1 inch pounds? Not much.
These tweaks bring the rim into lateral round and maybe radial round.
TWEAKS!!
All the tightening following the tweaks are but a continuation of the
tweak level. If you don't get it straight on the tweaks, start over.
A unresolved problem for me: how to avoid ( I forget the number)
unstraightening the rim as you tighten the nipples. I'm trying
quadrant 6 now but ssigh that's not producing an absolte answer.
Sequential tightening is dysfunctional. Check it out

 

[A Muzi]

g.daniels wrote:

> The LBS or the spoke manufacturer's website has the spoke calculator.
> Go with the LBS then compare to the spoke people.
> Buy a handful of 5mm too long and 5mm too short. The rims are usually
> elliptical and need be brought into round.
> This takes patience, intelligence, planning and planning
> memory-strategy like 3-d chess. 4-d chess!
> The best advice I heard, so far, was from the LBS expert: the just
> seated nipple level-that's emphasized by writers-is adjusted FROM with
> tweaks on the nipples. We're talking what? .1 inch pounds? Not much.
> These tweaks bring the rim into lateral round and maybe radial round.
> TWEAKS!!
> All the tightening following the tweaks are but a continuation of the
> tweak level. If you don't get it straight on the tweaks, start over.
> A unresolved problem for me: how to avoid ( I forget the number)
> unstraightening the rim as you tighten the nipples. I'm trying
> quadrant 6 now but ssigh that's not producing an absolte answer.
> Sequential tightening is dysfunctional. Check it out

I'm not sure why you wrote that or what your actual question
is, but when building a wheel with a used rim ( I assume
that's what you meant?) it's well worth your time to bend or
beat the thing into a shape that's as close to round and in
one plane as possible. Use a wheel as a reference.

Then after building it, lubricate both the threads and the
face of the nipple where it bears on the rim/ferrule and
bring the tension up evenly and incrementally.

Sequential tightening is in no way dysfunctional. Why would
you write that?

Ideally your rim will begin round, remain round throughout
the tensioning process and end up round. There's no need to
"unstraighten the rim as you tighten the nipples" if you
bring up the tension in one turn or half turn increments,
pausing to correct any obvious variance after each pass
around the rim.

Jobst's book is of course an excellent guide, but since you
have some experience in this area already ( we have your
famous "chicken blood" post of 27 September, 2002
prominently displayed at our truing stand), perhaps you
might write back with your further thoughts on today's
recalcitrant wheel and we'll try to analyze your immediate
problem.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Jonesy]

[email protected] (g.daniels) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> The LBS or the spoke manufacturer's website has the spoke calculator.

[snip gibberish]

GeeDee - that's for the (non)information. It was(n't at all) helpful.
Foloowing your instructions will help me build beautiful(ly f'ed up)
wheels.

--
Jonesy

 

[Jonesy]

jim beam <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jonesy wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > Here's an unrelated question:
> > have you marked your front skewer and drop-out for detection of
> > rotation/skewer self-unscrewing? Neither one of my disk-brake
> > equipped MTBs have moved in the slightest.
>
> no. i've never bothered because i've never had a problem. i posted
> some pics with carl fogel a while back:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/Img_3199.jpg
>
> [carl, thanks for keeping.]
>
> no evidence of movement and no loosening that i can tell. but i'm using
> shimano skewers and based on my ongoing bad experience with an open cam
> seat post clamp, i'd never use an open cam skewer to fasten something
> important like a wheel.

Yes - I have very similar drop-out indentations. No evidence at all
of rotation.

I had to take the front wheels off both bikes recently, but the nail
polish indicator lines were completely intact, with no difference in
register on either side of the fork. Now, if I could remember where I
put that bottle of polish, I would love to re-mark them. I may have
to raid my daughter's stash again...

I am also going to disassemble the hubs soon to look at the balls and
races for signs of fretting. I do not think the QRs are too tight,
but one must account for this misuse of the QR as well.
--
Jonesy "sceptical, still"

 

[Jonesy]

[email protected] (Jonesy) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

[snip]

> Two different sources put the ERD of these rims at 541mm. I get spoke
> lengths calculated thusly:
>
> LF, 259.9mm
> RF, 261.0mm
> LR, 261.0mm
> RR, 259.7mm

Update:

I went to Portland, OR, and went to River City bicycles. A nice
person behind the repair counter checked my numbers, and said "yup,
260mm all around will work fine."

I didn't actually have the rims in hand until today, and then I saw
it.

The spokes could stick out a whole centimeter and never touch the rim
tape (well, if they were threaded that long, anyway) due to the depth
of the rim. After screwing a nipple down all the way to the ends of
the thread, the end of the spoke stood a little over one millimeter
proud of the end of the nipple, more than 3mm from the bottom of the
slot. Interesting - I'd never seen a double-eyeletted rim "in the
flesh" before this.

I guess the worst thing that would happen is that the drive side, at
259.5mm, might go to the end of the threads during tensioning, but
that would require a 2.5mm difference for each drive side spoke.
Somehow, I do not think this is going to happen. And, since it is a
disk-brake wheel, and I have some amount of room for the wheel to be
offset to the non-drive side, even with my wide tires, I think all is
going to be just fine.

Actually, the worst thing that could happen is for me to find out that
the drive side spokes are actually slightly too long, and that I'm
going to have to get 16 258mm spokes from somewhere. Chain Reaction,
or some such. We'll see how the front wheel builds up first - it has
very similar spoke lengths to the rear (261.0 and 259.7, vs. 259.5 and
261.0). If it builds up without any hassle, then I'll tackle the rear
without worry. For some reason, building wheels in the past has been
a no-stress thing. Maybe because they were cheap, and sort of fell
together on their own (and without disk brake rotor flanges to muck up
the works.)

Thanks for all the help, and I'll drone on some more later about what
happens. I'll do it in this thread, so if you find it boring, kill
the thread to avoid the future posts on the subject.
--
Jonesy