When cyclists squat...



Well, you should have seen the state I was in today. With so much rain, I haven't cycled as much as I should and I went on a climbing sprint today, standing all the way as I did in the past.
It killed me. I definitely lost fitness with all the time off, plus, my work schedule on night-shifts.
It's funny how sometimes you can push on regardless even if your fitness has gone bonk. I'll never quit on a climb as it would ruin my day. Got back home soaked in sweat but with frozen feet. Think I'll treat myself to a red wine later on.

Felt_Rider said:
That would be a description of me. The guy that does a 5 second sprint and then wears out. :)
 
I'm kind of weary over talking about squats so much. It wasn't me who raised the thread in the first place but I seem to have been pushed into defending the exercise.
The truth is I'm probably getting a bit too old to do squats as I did in the past. To me it makes more sense to devote more time to discussing cycling and just agreeing to disagree.
It's not a big issue for me really.


ric_stern/RST said:
the data i use comes from previous research and by applying first principles.



presumably you have a reading disorder? Quite clearly, i have stated that i am only talking about ECP. I have agreed that and do use weights in other sports



idiot. as i've pointed out i'm presenting the available research that clearly states my (and many other exercise physiologists positions).



why not take some reading classes, i have only talked about ECP. if i was talking about runners or astronaughts or track sprint cyclists you'd see i advocate weights



great, and your qualifications in relation to coaching and sports science are? reading cycling magazines?



as others have pointed out, it isn't just me. i don't mind and in fact welcome counter ideas. all i ask is that you provide some good solid evidence to support your claims. as your claims run counter to all the available evidence for ECP the onus is on you to support your claim with some solid work (not i read something that's been badly translated in a cycling magazine)

ric
 
They just screened a local news item about a millionaire in this region who's fanatical about cycling. He runs a mobile phone/telecommunications company and is quite well known in this area. Usually every time he's interviewed on business matters, cycling gets mentioned.
So far as I'm aware this guy cycles some 28 miles to work every day but is also in the habit of cycling from Staffordshire to London. In the interview he just said he rises at 4.00 a.m. and gets to London by 15.00 in the afternoon. Of course, I think he's aged around 55 so that's quite reasonable.
I was, however, surprised to see footage of this same guy doing weights in the gym as well as some rowing on an aerobics machine. That definitely struck me because he's a real hardcore cyclist and obviously does weights as well (even contrary to what's recommended since weights and cycling aren't supposed to be done together).
The last I heard he was doing a cycle ride from the U.K. to Greece with the aim of raising cash for charities.
One thing I will say is he does far more than I do. I do cycle 30 miles or so on occasions but I wouldn't fancy doing it every single day, plus gym sessions as well.
 
If Ric Stern, the "Super Moderator", is calling people idiots and saying they have a reading disorder, is there a "Super-Duper Moderator" that can address his posts?
 
kennf said:
If Ric Stern, the "Super Moderator", is calling people idiots and saying they have a reading disorder, is there a "Super-Duper Moderator" that can address his posts?

yes, you can contact Steve the forum administrator/owner.

However, in the case of Carrera he doesn't seem to be able to read and/or comprehend what is written. i believe he is actually trolling, and perhaps that would have been a better descriptor than "idiot". Several people have tried to explain to Carrera that what he has written does not make any sense, either in the accepted coaching sense of weight training or with the research that i have presented to him on previous occasions. basically he writes bunk. additionally, various people have also reported this (in this thread and others), and several have asked me to ban him from the forum, which i'm currently loathe to do.

in the meantime please feel free to contact Steve, where i will happily accept his decision on the matter.

Ric
 
As I said, neither of these threads were raised by me and would have been raised whether I post to a particular forum or not.

If it is true that whatever I posted has actually offended anyone, I'll abstain from any future discussion on squats, or weight-training. However, the fact that someone might disagree with my own views has never offended me and don't see why not agreeing on an issue should cause anyone any offence at all. So, I'm stunned that should be the case.

I don't see how anyone could possibly feel offended over differences of opinion being expressed so long as insults or flame wars aren't involved. If you check my former posts I never resort to insults, sarcasms or anything such.

I think that it's pretty silly to actually fall out over such trivial things as approaches to training.












ric_stern/RST said:
yes, you can contact Steve the forum administrator/owner.

However, in the case of Carrera he doesn't seem to be able to read and/or comprehend what is written. i believe he is actually trolling, and perhaps that would have been a better descriptor than "idiot". Several people have tried to explain to Carrera that what he has written does not make any sense, either in the accepted coaching sense of weight training or with the research that i have presented to him on previous occasions. basically he writes bunk. additionally, various people have also reported this (in this thread and others), and several have asked me to ban him from the forum, which i'm currently loathe to do.

in the meantime please feel free to contact Steve, where i will happily accept his decision on the matter.

Ric
 
Carrera said:
As I said, neither of these threads were raised by me and would have been raised whether I post to a particular forum or not.

If it is true that whatever I posted has actually offended anyone, I'll abstain from any future discussion on squats, or weight-training. However, the fact that someone might disagree with my own views has never offended me and don't see why not agreeing on an issue should cause anyone any offence at all. So, I'm stunned that should be the case.

I don't see how anyone could possibly feel offended over differences of opinion being expressed so long as insults or flame wars aren't involved. If you check my former posts I never resort to insults, sarcasms or anything such.

I think that it's pretty silly to actually fall out over such trivial things as approaches to training.

To clarify, there is no issue or problem with anyone asking queries about anything cycling related. everyone should feel free to ask questions if they want to. there is also no issue in having a different view to me (and/or anyone else). Neither of these make you stupid/idiotic/or a troll. however, if you continually fly in the face of solid evidence trying to use an n=1 annecdotal approach (especially one that is highly flawed) and persist in using that approach to suggest it is correct (when clearly it isn't) you are likely to recieve comments upon the lines of "you're wasting space", etc.

At some point, in the face of overwhelming evidence or expert opinion you either have to provide extremely good evidence to support a counter view or you look a 'fool'. That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to take every experts opinion as being gospel, but if you question it and are shown the supporting evidence or the underpinning mechanisms and still continue with a counter view - you end up becoming tiresome.

In the case of weight training/squats etc. the evidence is overwhelming that it is not beneficial and in cases detrimental to ECP. Clearly note i have always said in relation to ECP. If you don't do ECP or have other goals that require weights (etc) then *clearly* that is a different question and will be answered as such. Blanket statements that squats are good for cycling, need clarification, because clearly they aren't (good).

Ric
 
ric_stern/RST said:
To clarify, there is no issue or problem with anyone asking queries about anything cycling related.

In the case of weight training/squats etc. the evidence is overwhelming that it is not beneficial and in cases detrimental to ECP. Clearly note i have always said in relation to ECP. If you don't do ECP or have other goals that require weights (etc) then *clearly* that is a different question and will be answered as such. Blanket statements that squats are good for cycling, need clarification, because clearly they aren't (good).

Ric

Another good post Ric.

This thread is 15 pages too long....:)
 
ric_stern/RST said:
the data i use comes from previous research and by applying first principles.



presumably you have a reading disorder?



idiot.


why not take some reading classes,


great, and your qualifications in relation to coaching and sports science are? reading cycling magazines?




ric
I could never consider hiring a coach who spoke in the above manner.
 
li0scc0 said:
I could never consider hiring a coach who spoke in the above manner.


Do you want a coach that will only tell you what you want to hear??
 
NJK said:
As an example if weight training worked for endurance cyclists then all pro cyclists would be split their time 50/50 betweens weights and road time which they obviously don't. It's seems like nobody wants to listen ric.
This is faulty logic. Just because something works does not mean the amount of time would be equivalent.
Unless they are lying, both Wenzel and Carmichael (and their coaches) recommend squatting and weight training for endurance cyclists. They also claim that Lance Armstrong, etc. weight train. The 1980 Tour de France Winner Joop Zootemelk tested positive for steroids (multiple times, I believe), as have other cyclists in the past. Thus, they had an interest in gaining strength and at least some associated muscle.
Take a simple comparison of today's cyclist with the stars of yester-year. It is CLEAR that many of the current cyclists do resistance training, as some have a level of musculature far beyond those of the past. Considering they also say they lift weights too.....what are we then to believe?
 
ed073 said:
Do you want a coach that will only tell you what you want to hear??
No but one who can tell a person they are wrong without being condescending. One that can tell you that you are wrong without resorting to name calling.
Such ad hominem attacks do not seem appropriate for a professional.
 
li0scc0 said:
This is faulty logic. Just because something works does not mean the amount of time would be equivalent.
Unless they are lying, both Wenzel and Carmichael (and their coaches) recommend squatting and weight training for endurance cyclists. They also claim that Lance Armstrong, etc. weight train. The 1980 Tour de France Winner Joop Zootemelk tested positive for steroids (multiple times, I believe), as have other cyclists in the past. Thus, they had an interest in gaining strength and at least some associated muscle.
Take a simple comparison of today's cyclist with the stars of yester-year. It is CLEAR that many of the current cyclists do resistance training, as some have a level of musculature far beyond those of the past. Considering they also say they lift weights too.....what are we then to believe?
It well be faulty logic, but armstrong didn't win 6 tours through weight training. Take a look at most pro cyclists you can tell they do not squat, leg press or whatever.
 
NJK said:
It well be faulty logic, but armstrong didn't win 6 tours through weight training. Take a look at most pro cyclists you can tell they do not squat, leg press or whatever.

100% correct. A dozen gym visits in the off season does not constitute a weights program.
 
li0scc0 said:
Unless they are lying, both Wenzel and Carmichael (and their coaches) recommend squatting and weight training for endurance cyclists. They also claim that Lance Armstrong, etc. weight train. The 1980 Tour de France Winner Joop Zootemelk tested positive for steroids (multiple times, I believe), as have other cyclists in the past. Thus, they had an interest in gaining strength and at least some associated muscle.
Gaining strength from steroids may not have been their primary intention.

Another benefit is recovery time and resistance to overtraining which may be more useful to an endurance athlete rather than the strength gain.

I am not trying to dispute your post. I just wanted to point out that strength is not the only reason that athletes use steroids.
 
Yup. Super-mega-recovery! Back when I did them it seemed I never wanted to leave the gym either. Just wanted to keep pushing. Wish I had some of that kind of recovery ability now!
 
:) It tempts me at times as well.

I have too many stories down that road, but since you figured out that I was from Coffee's Gym you might have figured as much about me. :)
 
Thought I'd outline some impressions that may be wrong, half-wrong or half-correct.
Firstly it seems to me that maybe we can all agree on my first point: When an individual takes up cycling various physiological changes take place in the body. The main thing you notice is your cardiovascular capacity improves dramatically as you train, correct? At least, when I first started cycling I found I got very breathless or even gasped going up hills but finally, with hard work, I soon came to stop being so breathless.
Physical changes took place too. In my case I found I started to lose both fat and muscle over a given period. I found that I lost muscle quicker than fat and that the fat clinged to me over a 6 month period. Finally, fat started to drop off me too.
So, my conclusion is that I experienced fairly typical physiological adaptations via cyling: loss of fat and loss of muscle. However, I should point out that, in my own case, the loss of muscle was bound to be more accelerated than it would be for most people, given I'm an ex-bodybuilder and I wasn't weight-training any more. And, yes, it may be that some people who take up cycling might not lose muscle at all (or even gain a bit).
Now, when I purely weight-trained some years ago, the opposite took place. My cardiovascular endurance wasn't very good (in fact, many bodybuilders are notoriously poor at running or endurance, given the large amount of muscle fibres they've developed). In my case, such training causes me to gain muscle mass as well as fat. So, at my peak of strength I had a massive 38 inch gut, I could squat heavy weights but my ability to cycle was poor. I should add, though, that people who have really excellent genetics can indeed gain a lot of muscle without fat (but that still doesn't make them any good at aerobics.
So, what's the conclusion? Simple, those of you who say squats don't make you a better cyclist are correct. I agree. I never argued anything different.
But, here's an interesting question: Say, you wanted to design the ultimate cyclist. What percentage of muscle to fat or fat to muscle do people think would be ideal? What about bone density e.t.c.? Obviously, bodybuilders and powerlifters aren't brilliant at cycling since they have far too much muscle. But how much muscle is ideal? The same as an untrained man, less than an untrained man, a little more than an untrained man?
Myself I don't know the answer which is why I thought I'd toss it out to the forum.
Finally I did try to get across is that the U.S. Postal Team and do their seasonal weights with a view to recuperating any muscle they may have lost during the intense cycling season. The passage someone else quoted earlier on stressed "recuperation" not actual muscle gain. There was no mention of Lance pumping iron while simultaneously competing in the TDF since that would be suicide (crippling his recuperation e.t.c.)
Whether we all agree that U.S. Postal's coaches are right to have Lance do seasonal weights is simply open to debate. Obviously some of you will conclude that the strategy isn't worthwhile and others will reckon the reasoning is valid.
Yes, let's forget the idea that squats make your legs stronger so that means you'll be a better cyclist. That idea is false. Maybe the discussion should be narrowed down to the following:
(1) What percentage of muscle to fat do people feel is ideal for a cyclist? Is there an ideal bodyweight? What do you feel is your own ideal weight?
(2) Lance's team have evidently poached some ideas from the old Soviet Space Program (Mir astronauts did intense weight-training to prepare for long periods in space and to compensate for stresses to their bodies while in Space, but the method was also adopted by Soviet athletes). Have Lance's team got it right or do you disagree with the whole idea? Here, I refer to the idea of "recuperation" of muscle the team may have lost cycling 100 miles at a time in competition.
(3) Are champion cyclists born and is Armstrong a genetic freak? Would it not matter what he did, given his freaky genetics?
 
Carrera said:
So, what's the conclusion? Simple, those of you who say squats don't make you a better cyclist are correct. I agree. I never argued anything different.

you did. you argued for weight gain being beneficial as it would increase power and performance.

But, here's an interesting question: Say, you wanted to design the ultimate cyclist. What percentage of muscle to fat or fat to muscle do people think would be ideal? What about bone density e.t.c.? Obviously, bodybuilders and powerlifters aren't brilliant at cycling since they have far too much muscle. But how much muscle is ideal?

why do you have this fixation with muscle? cycling performance, in terms of the events/riders you often talk about (e.g., TdF/LA) is limited by cardiovascular and metabolic issues.

most/all age gender and mass matched healthy individuals can generate the same power on average as elite cyclists. maintaining that power for the same period is *the* issue and that's a cardiovascular and metabolic problem not a "how big should my muscles be" problem.

(2) Lance's team have evidently poached some ideas from the old Soviet Space Program (Mir astronauts did intense weight-training to prepare for long periods in space and to compensate for stresses to their bodies while in Space, but the method was also adopted by Soviet athletes).

don't other astronaughts do this too?

(3) Are champion cyclists born and is Armstrong a genetic freak? Would it not matter what he did, given his freaky genetics?

all the pros chose their parents wisely

ric
 
Carrera said:
Physical changes took place too. In my case I found I started to lose both fat and muscle over a given period. I found that I lost muscle quicker than fat and that the fat clinged to me over a 6 month period. Finally, fat started to drop off me too.
So, my conclusion is that I experienced fairly typical physiological adaptations via cyling: loss of fat and loss of muscle. However, I should point out that, in my own case, the loss of muscle was bound to be more accelerated than it would be for most people, given I'm an ex-bodybuilder and I wasn't weight-training any more. And, yes, it may be that some people who take up cycling might not lose muscle at all (or even gain a bit)

If you don't use a muscle, you lose performance and muscle mass in that muscle, if you cycle or not, ie: broken leg in plaster.

If you don't eat, you lose body fat ( and some muscle mass)if you cycle or not.

9% body fat is healthy for a male, some genetic freaks may get by on 6%
women should draw the line at 12-13% body fat otherwise they get hormonal problems.

Cyclists who do the miles ( kilometers ) lose weight because of the extraordinary calorie demand/expenditure.
 

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