When cyclists squat...

[Carrera]

The whole issue of cycling/squatting seems more complicated to me. What does seem obvious is that scores of cyclists on this forum are doing squats on a regular basis or even upper body weight-training.
The problem is that while squats do build muscle, strengthen the lower back and build the leg-biceps (hams), cycling allows for little recuperation. From my own experience as an ectomorph, the only way I can build significant strength and muscle is to squat hard but not cycle at all during the weight-gaining process. I tried doing moderate squats in conjunction with lengthy cycle sessions and find the cycling, more or less, negates the muscle building process. Firstly the nervous system and recuperative processes can get overloaded and secondly you have to rest at least one or two days after hard squatting.
I'm presently doing an intense squatting cycle due to a recent knee injury - so I won't be doing any cycling for a couple of weeks. Now I'm resting from aerobics altogether my squat has naturally increased some 50 lbs and my body is getting more sleep and more rest. I'm also hoping my knee will strengthen and allow me to return to cycling fairly soon.
However, when I do resume cycling, I imagine my fitness level will be down somewhat and I'll find climbing especially hard with the added muscle I'm accumulating.
It may well be that the best way to use squats would be to do them periodically like most other athletes. It would probably be wise to drop them completely when trying to peak on a bike and it's certainly wise to avoid bodybuilding training or pumping. Muscle is ornamental basically. Even weightlifters aren't usually muscular and have the build of a normal guy in the street.
But to be honest I really don't know whether squats help cycling performance or not. I reckon more reliable research needs to be done so this would involve grabbing someone like Iban Mayo and seeing how he performs in the tour after a program of squatting.
Beginners who feel confused over the issue might be best simply buying Joe Friel's book since at thge very least he offers good advice as to how to avoid useless pumping and using weights more constructively from a cycling perspective.

If you are built for squatting i.e. no biomechanical problems and you approach it with good form and technique, squatting can be one of the most rewarding exercises. The shearing forces on your knees are greater before you actually reach a 90 degree angle, so squatting to 90 degrees or below will not be detrimental to your knees, if it's not your ego which is lifting the weight! In actual fact, I see many lifters squating well above parallel, but are using a weight which is far too heavy and is causing them more damage to their backs. Maybe if they squatted to parallel, they would be giving more sensible consideration to the amount they were lifting. Squatting is a great all over exercise - not just for the legs! My question is, does a cyclist need the same amount of power in their back, shoulders, stomach etc as a powerlifter? Would a 'safer' exercise such as leg press serve better as an exercise for the quads?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

The whole issue of cycling/squatting seems more complicated to me. What does seem obvious is that scores of cyclists on this forum are doing squats on a regular basis or even upper body weight-training.

just because many people might do something, doesn't mean it's correct. until fairly recently power meters weren't readily available. however, now that they are people who do endurance cycle racing (e.g., TT, RR, MTB XC, Track endurance, etc) can see how useless weights would be to increase performance. previously (i.e., pre power meters), where fatigue may have set in temporarily, e.g., when climbing, people can/could easily confuse the feelings of fatigue and changes in intracellular pH with a lack of strength. Clearly, this isn't the case and is easily proved by either training, or altering haematological parameters.

Except in some instances, cyclists are not limited by strength and don't need to do weight training to increase cycle performance.

But to be honest I really don't know whether squats help cycling performance or not.

we know that you don't!

I reckon more reliable research needs to be done so this would involve grabbing someone like Iban Mayo and seeing how he performs in the tour after a program of squatting.

this is totally unlikely to happen, no elite pro is likely to start some intervention that according to the majority of the available research and first principles isn't going to help.

additionally, we know that Mayo can generate enough power to win (e.g., Ventoux TT @ Dauphine Libere).

Beginners who feel confused over the issue might be best simply buying Joe Friel's book since at thge very least he offers good advice as to how to avoid useless pumping and using weights more constructively from a cycling perspective.

But it isn't, as clearly we know that doing weights isn't as good at improving ECP as cycling itself. Several of us have explained this to you over and over, have you dropped a weight on your head!!?

ric

 

[closesupport]

just because many people might do something, doesn't mean it's correct. Except in some instances, cyclists are not limited by strength and don't need to do weight training to increase cycle performance.

this is totally unlikely to happen, no elite pro is likely to start some intervention that according to the majority of the available research and first principles isn't going to help.

Several of us have explained this to you over and over, have you dropped a weight on your head!!?

ric

if it doesn't work, why does lance armstrong use weights, why is he number one over the tour, why has lance perfected the art of squating, does he do it just to pass his tiime, maybe he hasn't spoke to ric/stern and his several friends, yet!

maybe you could Drop LA or chris carmicheal a mail and tell him all about your theory, and he will stop using them, knowing he will become better at what he does best. if he is to concentrate more on his cycling .


your so funny,

 

[antoineg]

just because many people might do something, doesn't mean it's correct. until fairly recently power meters weren't readily available. however, now that they are people who do endurance cycle racing (e.g., TT, RR, MTB XC, Track endurance, etc) can see how useless weights would be to increase performance. previously (i.e., pre power meters), where fatigue may have set in temporarily, e.g., when climbing, people can/could easily confuse the feelings of fatigue and changes in intracellular pH with a lack of strength. Clearly, this isn't the case and is easily proved by either training, or altering haematological parameters.

Except in some instances, cyclists are not limited by strength and don't need to do weight training to increase cycle performance.



we know that you don't!



this is totally unlikely to happen, no elite pro is likely to start some intervention that according to the majority of the available research and first principles isn't going to help.

additionally, we know that Mayo can generate enough power to win (e.g., Ventoux TT @ Dauphine Libere).



But it isn't, as clearly we know that doing weights isn't as good at improving ECP as cycling itself. Several of us have explained this to you over and over, have you dropped a weight on your head!!?

ric

Hey Ric -- how about backing off and letting people who are interested in pursuing some other complimentary types of training discuss it without you barging in and claiming to have 100% of the answers, and crapping all over.

We all know you're a cycling coach, and have a business to attend to, and a reputation as an expert in exercise to protect and nurture, but how about you give the rest of us some breathing space and allow others the right to discuss what they know to be interesting and valuable fitness programs (through firsthand experience, I might add).

The fact is you don't KNOW what Iban Mayo might do if he were all of a sudden going to start a high-rep squat program. You theorize, but you don't KNOW. We are all an experiment of one, and for you to come in like Moses with the tablets is frankly insulting.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Hey Ric -- how about backing off and letting people who are interested in pursuing some other complimentary types of training discuss it without you barging in and claiming to have 100% of the answers, and crapping all over.

i'm here to provide some sports science support/consultation and some coaching ideas. What's the point of having me here if i don't do my job? I'm not "barging in" i'm simply providing as others do the reasons why weights don't work in trained cyclists for ECP. I see no point in letting a *myth* about cycling performance continue.

if you want to start a thread on how weights may affect some other aspect of fitness then that's good. start one.

We all know you're a cycling coach, and have a business to attend to, and a reputation as an expert in exercise to protect and nurture, but how about you give the rest of us some breathing space and allow others the right to discuss what they know to be interesting and valuable fitness programs (through firsthand experience, I might add).

as i've repeatedly said weights are good for some things (e.g., increasing strength) but in trained cyclists it doesn't increase performance (except in some circumstances as pointed out). i'm sure that for many weights are "interesting" and "valuable [for] fitness programs", however, that's not the point that the posters are making that i respond to. thus if you want to start a thread on being stronger, or 'looking better' or track sprinting or MTB DH, you will find that i use weights for some of those points.

The fact is you don't KNOW what Iban Mayo might do if he were all of a sudden going to start a high-rep squat program. You theorize, but you don't KNOW. We are all an experiment of one, and for you to come in like Moses with the tablets is frankly insulting.

i never said i did know what Mayo would do if he started weights. i merely said that he can generate enough power and force currently (or at least in June) to either win a severe mountain TT (and possibly the overall -- i can't presently remember if he definitely did win the DL).

Sure, we're all an n=1 anecdotal, but when we have an n greater than one, and we run a study on weights and cycling we find that weights don't help (in trained cyclists). additionally, we know from looking at first principles and calculating the forces required at the pedals under various situations we know that cycling is a low to moderate force sport that practically anyone can do.

ric

 

[ric_stern/RST]

if it doesn't work, why does lance armstrong use weights, why is he number one over the tour, why has lance perfected the art of squating, does he do it just to pass his tiime, maybe he hasn't spoke to ric/stern and his several friends, yet!

maybe you could Drop LA or chris carmicheal a mail and tell him all about your theory, and he will stop using them, knowing he will become better at what he does best. if he is to concentrate more on his cycling .


your so funny,

i suggest you read the first few pages of this thread (or maybe the other similar ones).

additionally, it was my understanding according to LA's site that he *doesn't* do squats. furthermore, the coach may well be Ferrari, and lastly we don't know if he's good because of or inspite of his training.

ric

 

[antoineg]

i'm here to provide some sports science support/consultation and some coaching ideas. What's the point of having me here if i don't do my job? I'm not "barging in" i'm simply providing as others do the reasons why weights don't work in trained cyclists for ECP.

The point is that some people DO claim that weights (in particular) work and help them with your cycling. Every time someone makes that claim, based on their own firsthand experience, you "barge in" and **** all over their claim based on whatever knowledge you picked up at Brighton, and since.

In other words, you can't seem to let anyone else take any authoritative stance on anything -- even their own bodies, and how they individually respond to exercise -- if it doesn't meet your notions of what the proper, or best, exercise for cycling is.

 

[closesupport]

i'm here to provide some sports science support/consultation and some coaching ideas. What's the point of having me here if i don't do my job? I'm not "barging in" i'm simply providing as others do the reasons why weights don't work in trained cyclists for ECP. I see no point in letting a *myth* about cycling performance continue.

if you want to start a thread on how weights may affect some other aspect of fitness then that's good. start one.



as i've repeatedly said weights are good for some things (e.g., increasing strength) but in trained cyclists it doesn't increase performance (except in some circumstances as pointed out). i'm sure that for many weights are "interesting" and "valuable [for] fitness programs", however, that's not the point that the posters are making that i respond to. thus if you want to start a thread on being stronger, or 'looking better' or track sprinting or MTB DH, you will find that i use weights for some of those points.



i never said i did know what Mayo would do if he started weights. i merely said that he can generate enough power and force currently (or at least in June) to either win a severe mountain TT (and possibly the overall -- i can't presently remember if he definitely did win the DL).

Sure, we're all an n=1 anecdotal, but when we have an n greater than one, and we run a study on weights and cycling we find that weights don't help (in trained cyclists). additionally, we know from looking at first principles and calculating the forces required at the pedals under various situations we know that cycling is a low to moderate force sport that practically anyone can do.

ric

HAVE YOU REALLY GOT A STRAIGHT FACE SAYING THAT.
Since weight training, not particularly of the powerlifting catagory but for fitness, since this method works in circuits, does improve overall fitness, does help increase the quantity of mitochondria.

Since the idea is greater the mass, larger the amount of extracellular fluid, the longer the time one reaches fatigue due to fluid and electrolyte imabalance's etc.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

The point is that some people DO claim that weights (in particular) work and help them with your cycling.

because, as you alluded to earlier an n=1 means nothing. there's no control and we don't know what else happened. add in, if they don't have an accurate power meter...

In other words, you can't seem to let anyone else take any authoritative stance on anything -- even their own bodies, and how they individually respond to exercise -- if it doesn't meet your notions of what the proper, or best, exercise for cycling is.

it's not just me that has this line. if you read the peer reviewed research in this area you would draw the same conclusion. i'm sorry that i don't bend the data to make you happy, but when people who have limited time and want the best results in ECP then weights are a waste of that valuable time

ric

 

[antoineg]

because, as you alluded to earlier an n=1 means nothing. there's no control and we don't know what else happened. add in, if they don't have an accurate power meter...



it's not just me that has this line. if you read the peer reviewed research in this area you would draw the same conclusion. i'm sorry that i don't bend the data to make you happy, but when people who have limited time and want the best results in ECP then weights are a waste of that valuable time

ric

You are completely missing the boat. What I'm saying is that you deny any and all sources of authority outside of your studies. You even deny people's claims about their own bodies.

You are the epitome of hubris.

 

[closesupport]

because, as you alluded to earlier an n=1 means nothing. there's no control and we don't know what else happened. add in, if they don't have an accurate power meter...



it's not just me that has this line. if you read the peer reviewed research in this area you would draw the same conclusion. i'm sorry that i don't bend the data to make you happy, but when people who have limited time and want the best results in ECP then weights are a waste of that valuable time

ric

peer reviewed research! i was waiting for that, what was it 20 people trained with weights, etc... well here goes, those 20 people are not the people you are talking to, each of us are different and respond differently to different training methods.

lets here your views, rather than rubbishing the things that others are suggesting, i don't think i have heard you mention one possible aproach to training, other than ride...?

okey! people are doing that, but not getting the gains they so desire, plus they still have time on there hands to do more? come on ric, lets here some possiblt training ideas, something that is going to possibly assist one of these cyclist looking for a possible idea on how to approach there plateu?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

HAVE YOU REALLY GOT A STRAIGHT FACE SAYING THAT.
Since weight training, not particularly of the powerlifting catagory but for fitness, since this method works in circuits, does improve overall fitness, does help increase the quantity of mitochondria.

Since the idea is greater the mass, larger the amount of extracellular fluid, the longer the time one reaches fatigue due to fluid and electrolyte imabalance's etc.

rather than wasting time posting stuff, why don't get you get a book from the library or purchase one such as that by Astrand and Rodahl or McArdle, Katch and Katch, which are both excellent texts to get you going in exercise physiology.

additionally, check out the studies on e.g., Pub-Med with trained cyclists and weights and see how they don't work, and how circuit training doesn't increase fitness for cycling (if that's what you meant by circuits).

ric

ric

 

[ric_stern/RST]

You are completely missing the boat. What I'm saying is that you deny any and all sources of authority outside of your studies. You even deny people's claims about their own bodies.

You are the epitome of hubris.

no i'm going from the studies that are freely available and using first principles to calculate the forces required. i've stated this on many occasions.


i don't disagree that people feel different and e.g., more powerful after weights, yet when they're tested with cycling specific protocols, there is NO improvements in ECP with trained and elite cyclists.

Fine, if you don't want to know what works and what doesn't then that's up to you. if you don't want to take my word for it, or understand the reasons/mechanisms that too is fine. of course, i'm not the only person who believes this and you can check here on page 6 with Andy Coggan's comments who is a leading exercise physiologist.

ric

 

[closesupport]

rather than wasting time posting stuff, why don't get you get a book from the library or purchase one such as that by Astrand and Rodahl or McArdle, Katch and Katch, which are both excellent texts to get you going in exercise physiology.

additionally, check out the studies on e.g., Pub-Med with trained cyclists and weights and see how they don't work, and how circuit training doesn't increase fitness for cycling (if that's what you meant by circuits).

ric

ric

cycle circuits do, rather run to the next exercise station why can't one cycle then move to the next exercise station, the move is the recovery period, when completed as superset type traing, yes they do work for improving overall fitness, and work in and beyond lactate thresholds.

 

[antoineg]

no i'm going from the studies that are freely available and using first principles to calculate the forces required. i've stated this on many occasions.

How do you explain that many studies contradict each other? How do you explain that many studies fail to support previously published research? How do you explain that there are many things about exercise physiology that are as yet unexplained -- you said yourself that overtraining is one of them.

I stick by my "hubris" comment -- you act as if you know everything, and that anyone who disagrees is ignorant, a moron, or a nincompoop. You think that leading cyclists who weight train (and there are a LOT of them) are nincompoops.

You must get tired of all of us nincompoops.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

How do you explain that many studies contradict each other?

if we're talking about weights then simply they don't. all the research that has used trained cyclists have failed to show an increase in performance. in untrained people weights improve cycling performance. i've said this before.

additionally, when we calculate the forces required at the pedal to ride at various powers encountered in ECP we can see they are low to moderate and can be met by matched controls.

I stick by my "hubris" comment -- you act as if you know everything, and that anyone who disagrees is ignorant, a moron, or a nincompoop. You think that leading cyclists who weight train (and there are a LOT of them) are nincompoops.

You must get tired of all of us nincompoops.

no, i've never said that i know everything, and when issues come up in areas that i'm not experienced in, i quite happily contact people who know more than i. i also work with others in areas that i do have experience in. i have never said that anyone is ignorant, moron or a nincompoop (!). i have suggested that Close Support should make a better effort an writing, but then more than several people have had issues trying to understand what Chris has written. He also seems to appreciate some aspects of sports science and ex. physiology, and i've suggested some reading material for him.

i don't think that leading cyclists who weight train are nincompoops.

ric

 

[ric_stern/RST]

okey! people are doing that, but not getting the gains they so desire, plus they still have time on there hands to do more? come on ric, lets here some possiblt training ideas, something that is going to possibly assist one of these cyclist looking for a possible idea on how to approach there plateu?

i have on many threads given advice on this, and we offer coaching. if you'd like some advice on this, then start a thread on how to bust through a plateau. however, you may not get a detailed answer for the simple reason that i/others would need detailed information about you. that maybe beyond the bounds of this forum (depending on what advice you wanted).

ric

 

[antoineg]

if we're talking about weights then simply they don't.

I wasn't specifically talking about weight training, but rather about the fluid and often contradictory nature of sport science research in general. Take the changing nature of our understanding of lactic acid as a famous example.

additionally, when we calculate the forces required at the pedal to ride at various powers encountered in ECP we can see they are low to moderate and can be met by matched controls.

You keep saying this over and over. Is it your understanding that the only reason one would do non-cycling exercise is to increase force?

no, i've never said that i know everything

you sure do act (write) as if you do

i have never said that anyone is ignorant, moron or a nincompoop (!)

you sure do act (write) as if you do

i don't think that leading cyclists who weight train are nincompoops

you do think they are wrong, though, don't you?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

You keep saying this over and over. Is it your understanding that the only reason one would do non-cycling exercise is to increase force?

no, but within the context of this discussion people are asking about weights to increase performance.

ric

 

[antoineg]

no, but within the context of this discussion people are asking about weights to increase performance.

I don't even think that the only reason one would do exercises with weights is to increase force.

I think you have an idea of brutes swaggering around the gym, oiling up and posing, trying their best at 1RM max squats or bench presses as the veins on their foreheads pop out.