When cyclists squat...

[Carrera]

I think you read my post the wrong way round. I stated that I didn't consider myself very fast on the flat but am a reasonably decent climber, given the fact I have a very high ratio of muscle to my actual body weight. Very little of my weight is made up of bone or fat.
A story I already shared was how a younger, swell-headed cyclist came past me on the flat last Summer and cracked a joke as he shot past, convinced he'd left me in the dust. As he shot past, I noticed the guy was heavily built, large boned and very muscular as cyclists go.
However, he was approaching a very steep (but fairly short) hill so I figured it would be a terrific opportunity to put my climbing speed to the test. By the time he hit the hill I was sucking on the guy's rear wheel but he must have thought I was way back on the road behind. Then, as the rider started to climb I realised he had really slowed down and was clearly struggling. I shot past him on the steepest point of the climb and must have been going twice as fast. Of course, I knew what my best gear was on that particular hill and I knew that my far lighter bone structure and relatively powerful legs would humble this rider's ego. He actually swore at me when he took a turn at the top of the hill - which struck me as kind of childish.
Even so, I don't consider myself a particulary good cyclist. My average speed on the flat varies between 17 mph to 22 mph. I'm also prone to energy blow-outs if I run my tank particularly hard.
I also reckon that a well-trained, lighter rider who averages 150 miles a week, or more, would probably leave me behind. Still I enjoy cycling and do it to keep aerobically fit.

well thats probably where we differ, i don't body build anymore, i never have power lifted, but when i hit hills and larger gradients i can still maintain a reasonable speed, i still overtake other cyclist, maybe its due to the fact that when i ride i ride in the opposite direction to most cyclists in my area, i head for the hills why they head off for the decents and flats.

i do come across a number of decents and flats but more hills than i would if i was to travel in the direction of most the cyclist, i always tend to head off into the wind mashing out the larger gears why most cyclist try to keep a tailwind, so on calmer days i find that my legs are strong and maintained strong from this kind of powertraining, i do lots of spinning and sprinting, but haven't been in a gym for some 6yrs my upper body mass may have decreased considerably but the muscle groups that i desire to use the most still maintain there size through adequate protein intake and rest.

spinning is good when you only have shorter distances to travel, my cardiovascular ability and lactate threshold are maintaned by spinning rediculous rpms over shorter distances on my mtb.

so my 17" calf my 28" quad are maintained by this type of training regimn.

 

[Carrera]

I think you read my post the wrong way round. I stated that I didn't consider myself very fast on the flat but am a reasonably strong climber, given the fact I have a very high ratio of muscle to my actual body weight. Very little of my weight is made up of bone.
A story I already shared was how a younger, swell-headed cyclist came past me on the flat last Summer and cracked a joke as he shot past, convinced he'd left me in the dust. As he shot past, I noticed the guy was heavily built, large boned and very muscular as cyclists go.
However, he was approaching a very steep (but fairly short) hill so I figured it would be a terrific opportunity to put my climbing speed to the test. By the time he hit the hill I was sucking on the guy's rear wheel but he must have thought I was way back on the road behind. Then, as the rider started to climb I realised he had really slowed down and was clearly struggling. I shot past him on the steepest point of the climb and must have been going twice as fast. Of course, I knew what my best gear was on that particular hill and I knew that my far lighter bone structure and relatively powerful legs would humble this rider's ego. He actually swore at me when he took a turn at the top of the hill - which struck me as kind of childish.
Even so, I don't consider myself a particulary good cyclist. My average speed on the flat varies between 17 mph to 22 mph. I'm also prone to energy blow-outs if I run my tank particularly hard.
I also reckon that a well-trained, lighter rider who averages 150 miles a week, or more, would probably leave me behind. Still I enjoy cycling and do it to keep aerobically fit.

well thats probably where we differ, i don't body build anymore, i never have power lifted, but when i hit hills and larger gradients i can still maintain a reasonable speed, i still overtake other cyclist, maybe its due to the fact that when i ride i ride in the opposite direction to most cyclists in my area, i head for the hills why they head off for the decents and flats.

i do come across a number of decents and flats but more hills than i would if i was to travel in the direction of most the cyclist, i always tend to head off into the wind mashing out the larger gears why most cyclist try to keep a tailwind, so on calmer days i find that my legs are strong and maintained strong from this kind of powertraining, i do lots of spinning and sprinting, but haven't been in a gym for some 6yrs my upper body mass may have decreased considerably but the muscle groups that i desire to use the most still maintain there size through adequate protein intake and rest.

spinning is good when you only have shorter distances to travel, my cardiovascular ability and lactate threshold are maintaned by spinning rediculous rpms over shorter distances on my mtb.

so my 17" calf my 28" quad are maintained by this type of training regimn.

 

[velomanct]

I am now routinely doing squats. I am not having those problems like I said earlier, the weight helps me do correct form(vs. no weight).
I am in the anatomical adaption phase doing 85lbs! I am estimating my 1RM to be in the high 200lbs. My upper body is not strong enough to hold more than that, yet.
Do you guys feel that squats work your calves too? I rather not to calf raises.

I can't believe a few humans can squat over 1100lbs. That is incredible.

 

[closesupport]

I am now routinely doing squats. I am not having those problems like I said earlier, the weight helps me do correct form(vs. no weight).
I am in the anatomical adaption phase doing 85lbs! I am estimating my 1RM to be in the high 200lbs. My upper body is not strong enough to hold more than that, yet.
Do you guys feel that squats work your calves too? I rather not to calf raises.

I can't believe a few humans can squat over 1100lbs. That is incredible.

squats don't work your calves, it is a totally different muscle group, you will have todo calf raises, cycling only works the calves as you point your toes and pull through the bottom of the pedal stroke.

 

[closesupport]

I think you read my post the wrong way round. I stated that I didn't consider myself very fast on the flat but am a reasonably strong climber, given the fact I have a very high ratio of muscle to my actual body weight. Very little of my weight is made up of bone.
A story I already shared was how a younger, swell-headed cyclist came past me on the flat last Summer and cracked a joke as he shot past, convinced he'd left me in the dust. As he shot past, I noticed the guy was heavily built, large boned and very muscular as cyclists go.
However, he was approaching a very steep (but fairly short) hill so I figured it would be a terrific opportunity to put my climbing speed to the test. By the time he hit the hill I was sucking on the guy's rear wheel but he must have thought I was way back on the road behind. Then, as the rider started to climb I realised he had really slowed down and was clearly struggling. I shot past him on the steepest point of the climb and must have been going twice as fast. Of course, I knew what my best gear was on that particular hill and I knew that my far lighter bone structure and relatively powerful legs would humble this rider's ego. He actually swore at me when he took a turn at the top of the hill - which struck me as kind of childish.
Even so, I don't consider myself a particulary good cyclist. My average speed on the flat varies between 17 mph to 22 mph. I'm also prone to energy blow-outs if I run my tank particularly hard.
I also reckon that a well-trained, lighter rider who averages 150 miles a week, or more, would probably leave me behind. Still I enjoy cycling and do it to keep aerobically fit.

unfortunately that rider wasn't me, i don't have problems on hills, nor do i have problems on flats or do i scare easy on decents.. its all for the chemical high, the greater the speed, the more the pain, the higher the chemical responses, the better i feel.

i love dropping cyclists at 22mph as i pass them at 30+ tucked up, or 17-20mph on hills where some struggle at 10-15mph >>massages ego<<

 

[velomanct]

I squated a whopping 200lbs today! That's my 1RM!
My back felt like it was going to crumble with 215lbs on it.

I think I hold the title of weakest sprinter

 

[Carrera]

One possibility to explore is high reps. I sometimes wonder why cyclists are only told to do heavy squats when high rep squats would constitute a good cardio and strength session combined.
The most I usually knock out is 20 reps per set but I breathe very hard. Someone who can't face going out in the snow might find that ultra high reps can be useful as well - up to 50 reps per set. The secret would be to reach cardio failure before muscular failure.

I squated a whopping 200lbs today! That's my 1RM!
My back felt like it was going to crumble with 215lbs on it.

I think I hold the title of weakest sprinter

 

[ric_stern/RST]

One possibility to explore is high reps. I sometimes wonder why cyclists are only told to do heavy squats when high rep squats would constitute a good cardio and strength session combined.
The most I usually knock out is 20 reps per set but I breathe very hard. Someone who can't face going out in the snow might find that ultra high reps can be useful as well - up to 50 reps per set. The secret would be to reach cardio failure before muscular failure.

Because, as i've repeatedly stated, along with Andy Coggan, 2Lap, Roadie Scum, and others, if you do lighter/more reps you only have neuromuscular adaptations: these occur at the *specific* joint angle and velocity at which they're trained. So, unless you can do squats in the same manner you pedal, at the same velocity it aint going to make you any better at cycling (unless you're low fitness, and any exercise will help).

On the other hand if you can't go cycling due to e.g., inclement weather then any exercise is good (assuming the inclement weather prevents you from cycling for a good period of time, as opposed to e.g., 2 days). of course you'd be far better off riding the turbo. or if that bores you, going running or swimming or skiing, or some proper "cardio" activity.

on the other hand if you really wanted to do some weights, you'd be better off with heavy weights/few reps to increase muscle cross sectional area, because at least it would help increase your sprint power (although, you'd have a concomitant decrease in aerobic ability).

ric

 

[velomanct]

Ric, what is your opinion on doing low weight(~40% 1RM), fast reps(sets of 10-15reps) to build sprint power? I know there is an increased chance of injury, but is it even worth doing? (This phase would be done after the hypertrophy and max strength phase)
Maybe one would be better off using weight training for building mass and pure strength only. And use the bike for the explosive speed training.

I think you might of answered this in your above reply. But i just want to be clear about the fast rep, low weight method. Velocity still won't be anywhere near sprint cadences, but you will be recruiting all your fast twitch muscles to move the weight as quickly as possible. The joint angle with squats and step ups is abviously not the exact same as on the bike, but it seems close enough to transfer the adaption.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Maybe one would be better off using weight training for building mass and pure strength only. And use the bike for the explosive speed training.

with the world class sprinters i look or have looked after this is what we do.

ric

 

[Carrera]

As you're probably aware the weather over here has been pretty lousy with heavy winds and constant rain. So, it is the case of any exercise being better than nothing for the moment. Sure, swimming is also good as an alternative.
I'm not really what you might call a sprinter but I take your point about heavier weights being useful for sprinters.
I'm more of a recreational cyclist so my goal isn't quite so specialised as many others and, therefore, I throw in these high rep squats every so often. I'm amazed, though, that having cut down my training due to some knee trouble, my cycling hasn't deteriorated that much. Went out a couple of days ago and sprinted up a steep hill no problem without being breathless.
The weather over here sucks, though.

Because, as i've repeatedly stated, along with Andy Coggan, 2Lap, Roadie Scum, and others, if you do lighter/more reps you only have neuromuscular adaptations: these occur at the *specific* joint angle and velocity at which they're trained. So, unless you can do squats in the same manner you pedal, at the same velocity it aint going to make you any better at cycling (unless you're low fitness, and any exercise will help).

On the other hand if you can't go cycling due to e.g., inclement weather then any exercise is good (assuming the inclement weather prevents you from cycling for a good period of time, as opposed to e.g., 2 days). of course you'd be far better off riding the turbo. or if that bores you, going running or swimming or skiing, or some proper "cardio" activity.

on the other hand if you really wanted to do some weights, you'd be better off with heavy weights/few reps to increase muscle cross sectional area, because at least it would help increase your sprint power (although, you'd have a concomitant decrease in aerobic ability).

ric

 

[Felt_Rider]

As a newbie to the cycling world I cannot comment on how to train for competitive cycling or cycling period, but I will chime in as having over 20 years in weightlifting, competitions, and training others for competitions in bodybuilding.

I have been doing powerlifting "full squats" which is a point on the hip going just below the pivoting point on the knees for over 20 years and my knees are just fine. The only difference between the way I squat and a competitive powerlifter is than my stance is more narrow and I keep my back more upright.

My belief system for weight training is always keep a full range of motion to develop the muscle fibers fully. I have seen multitudes of bodybuilders who had great potential fall short in competitions because their legs were not fully developed. Meaning other than a genetic weakness in their quadriceps you can see the lack of development in their medialis and that is more than likely a result from not using a full range of motion in exercising the quadriceps.

My body has always responded well to heavy full range squats, however, I have met guys much bigger than me that responded very well with much lighter full squats. I would not argue the heavy or light issue, but I do believe full squats are the king of all leg exercises if one uses the absolute best form. I was very fortunate that I had an excellent teacher for squat form.

Again I do not make this statement based on how it effects biking, but rather give my endorsement that I have been doing full squats for many years with no lasting ill effects on my knees.

 

[bikeshop]

I have trained a lot of weightlifters who have become excellent cyclist in all disciplines. Full range squats are very beneficial, but the deep squat doesnt really show that many benefits to those who take up cycling exclusively, other than providing some excellent opportunities to keep the hammies and heelcords stretched and injury resistant. But its all good. www.the-bike-shop.com/training

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I have trained a lot of weightlifters who have become excellent cyclist in all disciplines. Full range squats are very beneficial, but the deep squat doesnt really show that many benefits to those who take up cycling exclusively, other than providing some excellent opportunities to keep the hammies and heelcords stretched and injury resistant. But its all good. www.the-bike-shop.com/training

beneficial at what? they certainly don't help ECP

ric

 

[Fixey]

with the world class sprinters i look or have looked after this is what we do.

ric

Aye...here is my take on this aspect.....Gym for sprinters = Max Weight squats/deadlifts and plymetrics.......rest is on the bike. I stop my guys Gym work no less than 6 weeks out from a big event also....I cant equat weights and speed work...

 

[Carrera]

The main point, though, is that squats are the best means of gaining weight. If we all accept that weight gain can actually improve cycling on occasions, then we must accept the best way to put on the right kind of weight is via squatting.
Indurain confessed that if his weight dropped too much he lost power on the bike. I assume he must have cycled less and eaten more to correct his own problem but squats help you do this more quickly.
As for the idea that squats don't specifically make you better at distance cycling, this may well be the case.

I have trained a lot of weightlifters who have become excellent cyclist in all disciplines. Full range squats are very beneficial, but the deep squat doesnt really show that many benefits to those who take up cycling exclusively, other than providing some excellent opportunities to keep the hammies and heelcords stretched and injury resistant. But its all good. www.the-bike-shop.com/training

 

[ric_stern/RST]

The main point, though, is that squats are the best means of gaining weight.

actually, over eating is. just ask millions of obese people

If we all accept that weight gain can actually improve cycling on occasions,

why? what is your basis for this? how does weight gain improve cycling.

then we must accept the best way to put on the right kind of weight is via squatting.

we don't.

Indurain confessed that if his weight dropped too much he lost power on the bike. I assume he must have cycled less and eaten more to correct his own problem but squats help you do this more quickly.

your logic is completely at fault.

i've no idea whether Indurain said this or not. however, it is well known that weight loss can also include glycogen depletion as well as fat mass. consequently, when many people lose weight not only is there a decrease in fat, but in muscle and liver glycogen (and water). these latter points would most likely cause a decrease in the amount of sustainable power that can be generated.

had he, or anyone increased their muscle mass via squats, then as i've pointed out before, they would a) have more weight to lug uphill with no increase in aerobic power, and b) have a greater diffusion distance from the capillaries to the mitochondria and thus decrease their aerobic capacity. you would therefore be at a double disadvantage with weights/squats

ric

 

[NJK]

actually, over eating is. just ask millions of obese people



why? what is your basis for this? how does weight gain improve cycling.



we don't.



your logic is completely at fault.

i've no idea whether Indurain said this or not. however, it is well known that weight loss can also include glycogen depletion as well as fat mass. consequently, when many people lose weight not only is there a decrease in fat, but in muscle and liver glycogen (and water). these latter points would most likely cause a decrease in the amount of sustainable power that can be generated.

had he, or anyone increased their muscle mass via squats, then as i've pointed out before, they would a) have more weight to lug uphill with no increase in aerobic power, and b) have a greater diffusion distance from the capillaries to the mitochondria and thus decrease their aerobic capacity. you would therefore be at a double disadvantage with weights/squats

As an example if weight training worked for endurance cyclists then all pro cyclists would be split their time 50/50 betweens weights and road time which they obviously don't. It's seems like nobody wants to listen ric.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

As an example if weight training worked for endurance cyclists then all pro cyclists would be split their time 50/50 betweens weights and road time which they obviously don't. It's seems like nobody wants to listen ric.

you gotta keep trying though!

ric

 

[Carrera]

It depends whether you accept that weight-gain can be beneficial for sports performance or not. And bear in mind I'm talking about 5 - 10 pounds gain.
O.K., let's assume that the best way to enhance your cycling performance is to reduce your weight as much as possible. That would mean the lightest cyclists would be the best all-around cyclists (i.e. the pure climbers).
However, not that many pure climbers have been proven to be the best overall cyclists. Miguel Indurain weighed as much as 90 k.g. by some estimates and LA is also a lot heftier than Pantani or Mayo. However, you tend to find that the bigger guys show better all-around performance. I mean, big Mig was more of a time-trialer than a pure climber. Both Lance and Mig are terrific climbers but their time-trialing and sprinting is what gives them the edge.
All the world greats got there via a combination of decent climbing, outstanding time-trialing and maybe some decent sprinting on occasions.
Both Lance and Mig are surely aware that if they lowered their body weight to improve on climbing, they would risk losing energy and power on their sprinting and time-trialing. You have to know what your ideal body weight is and that doesn't always necessitate weight loss. Many pro cyclists will point out that sometimes a gain in weight mass will actually improve their overall performance.
And yes, I have an interview with Inurain where he testifies to the above - he didn't let his weight drop below a certain level.
If you accept my point that weight gain can be just as beneficial as weight loss, then we're halfway there to some kind of agreement. If you disagree, then that's the point that needs discussing on the forum first.
If weight-gain can be beneficial the best way for a cyclist to gain body mass is via squatting (not leg-presses). Squats don't only build muscle but they also build bulk and increase natural testosterone. Maybe you have a little more weight to lug uphill but remember that if your energy level increases and you feel stronger, this will more than compensate with regard to overall performance.

actually, over eating is. just ask millions of obese people



why? what is your basis for this? how does weight gain improve cycling.



we don't.



your logic is completely at fault.

i've no idea whether Indurain said this or not. however, it is well known that weight loss can also include glycogen depletion as well as fat mass. consequently, when many people lose weight not only is there a decrease in fat, but in muscle and liver glycogen (and water). these latter points would most likely cause a decrease in the amount of sustainable power that can be generated.

had he, or anyone increased their muscle mass via squats, then as i've pointed out before, they would a) have more weight to lug uphill with no increase in aerobic power, and b) have a greater diffusion distance from the capillaries to the mitochondria and thus decrease their aerobic capacity. you would therefore be at a double disadvantage with weights/squats

ric