When is a bike lane not a bike lane?

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Daveb, Feb 5, 2004.

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  1. Daveb

    Daveb Guest

    In Melbourne there seems to be an increasing number of what looks to be a bike lane where the lane
    is marked with a dashed line and only goes for a few metres but repeats every 50-100 metres. I've
    noticed them on Studley Rd Kew prior to hitting the "real" bike lane that runs down to Johnstone St.
    But I've also seem them a lot of other places. I assume this is just a cost cutting measure to save
    on the costs of doing a full bike lane. But what I was wondering is what protection do these pretend
    lanes offer. In a real lane it is fairly obvious to car drivers where they should and shouldn't be,
    but with these pretend lanes are they supposed to swerve out of the way every 50 metres at the
    markings, and what would be the point. Dave B.
     
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  2. Baka Dasai

    Baka Dasai Guest

    On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:03:01 +1100, DaveB said (and I quote):
    > In Melbourne there seems to be an increasing number of what looks to be a bike lane where the lane
    > is marked with a dashed line and only goes for a few metres but repeats every 50-100 metres. I've
    > noticed them on Studley Rd Kew prior to hitting the "real" bike lane that runs down to Johnstone
    > St. But I've also seem them a lot of other places. I assume this is just a cost cutting measure to
    > save on the costs of doing a full bike lane. But what I was wondering is what protection do these
    > pretend lanes offer.

    Exactly the same amount as a "real" bike lane.

    > In a real lane it is fairly obvious to car drivers where they should and shouldn't be, but with
    > these pretend lanes are they supposed to swerve out of the way every 50 metres at the markings,
    > and what would be the point.

    Well, cars have to swerve into the bike lane every time they make a left turn, and bikes have
    to swerve into the "car" lane every time they make a right turn, so I'm not sure that these
    pretend bike lanes are any different from normal bike lanes, or from a street with no bike lane
    for that matter.
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  3. Alan Erskine

    Alan Erskine Guest

    "DaveB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In Melbourne there seems to be an increasing number of what looks to be a bike lane where the lane
    > is marked with a dashed line and only goes for a few metres but repeats every 50-100 metres. I've
    > noticed them on Studley Rd Kew prior to hitting the "real" bike lane that runs down to Johnstone
    > St. But I've also seem them a lot of other places. I assume this is just a cost cutting measure to
    > save on the costs of doing a full bike lane. But what I was wondering is what protection do these
    > pretend lanes offer. In a real lane it is fairly obvious to car drivers where they should and
    > shouldn't be, but with these pretend lanes are they supposed to swerve out of the way every 50
    > metres at the markings, and what would be the point. Dave B.
    >
    As far as I'm concerned, it's not a bike lane on the road. I _never_ use them and feel justified in
    'Civil disobedience' by riding (carefully) on footpaths after that poor man was killed in 2001 by
    the woman who was using a mobile phone at the time. She got off with a two year suspended sentence
    and lost her drivers lisence for two years - Scott Free.

    By the same token, why are pedestrians allowed to walk on bike paths? The one by the Esplanade in St
    Kilda is a hellish experience with people not only walking on the path, but *running* across it from
    behind bushes etc.
     
  4. Hippy

    Hippy Guest

    "Alan Erskine" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > As far as I'm concerned, it's not a bike lane on the road. I _never_ use them and feel justified
    > in 'Civil disobedience' by riding (carefully) on footpaths after that poor man was killed in 2001
    > by the woman who was
    using
    > a mobile phone at the time. She got off with a two year suspended
    sentence
    > and lost her drivers lisence for two years - Scott Free.
    >
    > By the same token, why are pedestrians allowed to walk on bike paths? The

    They are probably trying to save themselves from the roller bladers and dog walkers, etc! :)

    > one by the Esplanade in St Kilda is a hellish experience with people not only walking on the path,
    > but *running* across it from behind bushes etc.

    Personally, I still find the road a lot safer and a lot more predicatable than any footpath
    bikelane. Of course, it depends on your speed, but that's what it's like for me. It's just not
    possible to dodge that unseen car reversing out of their driveway every 10m at 30kph+.

    hippy
     
  5. Daveb

    Daveb Guest

    Baka Dasai wrote:
    > On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:03:01 +1100, DaveB said (and I quote):
    >
    >>In Melbourne there seems to be an increasing number of what looks to be a bike lane where the lane
    >>is marked with a dashed line and only goes for a few metres but repeats every 50-100 metres. I've
    >>noticed them on Studley Rd Kew prior to hitting the "real" bike lane that runs down to Johnstone
    >>St. But I've also seem them a lot of other places. I assume this is just a cost cutting measure to
    >>save on the costs of doing a full bike lane. But what I was wondering is what protection do these
    >>pretend lanes offer.
    >
    >
    > Exactly the same amount as a "real" bike lane.
    >
    >
    >>In a real lane it is fairly obvious to car drivers where they should and shouldn't be, but with
    >>these pretend lanes are they supposed to swerve out of the way every 50 metres at the markings,
    >>and what would be the point.
    >
    >
    > Well, cars have to swerve into the bike lane every time they make a left turn, and bikes have
    > to swerve into the "car" lane every time they make a right turn, so I'm not sure that these
    > pretend bike lanes are any different from normal bike lanes, or from a street with no bike lane
    > for that matter.

    I think you're missing the point. My question is what is the point in a bike lane that goes
    for 2 metres?

    Dave B.
     
  6. Ritch

    Ritch Guest

    "hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Alan Erskine" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > > As far as I'm concerned, it's not a bike lane on the road. I _never_ use them and feel justified
    > > in 'Civil disobedience' by riding (carefully) on footpaths after that poor man was killed in
    > > 2001 by the woman who was
    > using
    > > a mobile phone at the time. She got off with a two year suspended
    > sentence
    > > and lost her drivers lisence for two years - Scott Free.
    > >
    > > By the same token, why are pedestrians allowed to walk on bike paths? The
    >
    > They are probably trying to save themselves from the roller bladers and dog walkers, etc! :)
    >
    > > one by the Esplanade in St Kilda is a hellish experience with people not only walking on the
    > > path, but *running* across it from behind bushes etc.
    >
    > Personally, I still find the road a lot safer and a lot more predicatable than any footpath
    > bikelane. Of course, it depends on your speed, but that's what it's like for me. It's just not
    > possible to dodge that unseen car reversing out of their driveway every 10m at 30kph+.
    >
    > hippy

    I'm with you on that one, hippy. The footpath and most bikepaths are very dangerous at 30+kph.
    Of course it doesn't make the road any safer, but at those speeds I prefer to take my chances
    on the road.

    Thanks also the Sydney's train stoppage earlier this week. The ensuing traffic jam was the worst
    I've seen in an evening commute - and I left at 7pm. The risks that motorists take in such
    circumstances is mind boggling, especially when they gain only a few car lengths in the process.

    The taxi that decided to escape the jam by turning sharply (w/o indicating) into the side street
    gave me a chance to execute an emergency left turn. This is an extremely useful maneuver, without
    which I would have become part of the passenger side door.

    Hopefully Sydney trains can get back to normal (crap but still sort of working) so I have half a
    chance on the roads again.

    Ritch
     
  7. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    "Alan Erskine" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "DaveB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:40232E15.[email protected]... As far as I'm concerned, it's not a bike lane on
    > the road. I _never_ use them and feel justified in 'Civil disobedience' by riding (carefully) on
    > footpaths after that poor man was killed in 2001 by the woman who was
    using
    > a mobile phone at the time.

    Crikey, we will have to drive cars carfully on the footpath as mobile phones have been responsible
    for passenger deaths as well.

    Pete
     
  8. Baka Dasai

    Baka Dasai Guest

    On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 08:33:03 +1100, DaveB said (and I quote):
    > Baka Dasai wrote:
    >> Well, cars have to swerve into the bike lane every time they make a left turn, and bikes have to
    >> swerve into the "car" lane every time they make a right turn, so I'm not sure that these pretend
    >> bike lanes are any different from normal bike lanes, or from a street with no bike lane for that
    >> matter.
    >
    > I think you're missing the point. My question is what is the point in a bike lane that goes for
    > 2 metres?

    No, I get your point. I think you're missing my point, which is that there is little point to any
    bike lane, seeing as both motorists and cyclists have to ignore the bike lane at the parts of the
    road where the vast bulk of collisions occur - intersections.
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  9. Spider1977

    Spider1977 New Member

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    Just spent the weekend in Melbourne. Hired a bike and rode with my son along the Yarra Trail to Studley Park Rd and then back through Richmond to Burnley using the bike lane. These are fantastic. Even though there was heavy traffic, no one infringed the well marked lane, apart from intersections where things got a bit dodgy for us, but no real dramas.

    These bike lanes are a fantastic idea, as is the trail along both sides of the Yarra. When I was a young guy at school in the 70's the Yarra banks were infested with blackberries, at least you can sea the river now.

    In Hobart we have a poor excuse for a bike lane near Taroona, but it's not much wider than about a metre, of which 30cm is taken up with the gutter. The road is windy and smooth so travelling at anything more than about 20kph it's pretty hard to stay in the "lane", which is full of stones and glass. That's when I'd say that a bike lane isn't a bike lane. But hey - it's the only one in the whole damn city, apart from the bike track.:mad:
     
  10. ftf

    ftf New Member

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    It really does seem like a token effort rather than a practical one... i mean the only people that notice those dashed lines every 50 metres with the bicycle symbol are the cyclists!!??!! It is a little better than nothing.

    However it seems to be quite unfortunate that the quality of the road within these 'part-time' bike lanes is often far below many of the dedicated (and badly made) bike paths around. Does Bridge Rd in Richmond ring a bell here? Nothing quite like riding on bluestone circa 1920's.

    Also, has anyone noticed that a number of these dashed lines and symbols were blacked out i.e. gone over with black paint? Whats with that?

    Cheers,
    Troy
     
  11. cfsmtb

    cfsmtb New Member

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    Dunno, maybe it's VicRoads practising the mysterous Black Art of archaic traffic planning, painting weird and confusing runic symbols on the road...

    For more about on-road bicycle lanes, consult the oracles;
    BV - Bike lanes and cars:
    http://bv.com.au/content.cfm?submenuid=64&contentid=467

    Footpath cycling:
    http://bv.com.au/content.cfm?submenuid=64&contentid=242

    VicRoads info, more smoke and mirrors:
    http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrne...7ED0F32A0ECA256B980003D610?OpenDocument&Area=[Cyclists]
     
  12. Jess

    Jess Guest

    When is a bike lane not a bike lane....

    When its coated in glass/metal/car bits and anything that could damage my bike...that includes
    bluestone!
     
  13. flyingdutch

    flyingdutch New Member

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    i thought bike lanes were designated areas to sweep glass, rubbish, etc into and never repair. That seems to be what most councils think...

    These short bike lanes just stink of trying to please all the people all the time, and of course pleasing nobody!

    Take a look at Kew junction recently? They have painted out the bike lanes so as not to offend drivers trying to run over the Tram passengers as they alight out front of the 'skinny dog'.
    Seems to be a Booroodara thang. Shall be at that meeting tomoorow night with bells on!
     
  14. Daveb

    Daveb Guest

    cfsmtb wrote:
    > ftf wrote:
    > > Also, has anyone noticed that a number of these dashed lines and symbols were blacked out i.e.
    > > gone over with black paint? Whats with that? Cheers, Troy
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Dunno, maybe it's VicRoads practising the mysterous Black Art of archaic traffic planning,
    > painting weird and confusing runic symbols on the road...
    >
    > For more about on-road bicycle lanes, consult the oracles; BV - Bike lanes and cars:
    > http://bv.com.au/content.cfm?submenuid=64&contentid=467
    >
    > Footpath cycling: http://bv.com.au/content.cfm?submenuid=64&contentid=242
    >
    > VicRoads info, more smoke and mirrors: http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/v- rne/vrninte.nsf/alldocs/7696A57ED0F32A0ECA256B980003D610?OpenDocument&A-
    > rea=[Cyclists]
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    >

    Yep, the Bike Vic site was the go. Here's what they had to say about WKL's (wide kerb lanes) which
    is what the original post was about. Can't see what the point is myself. The lane is to be shared,
    which is what would happen if the lane wasn't there, and it has no legal status anyway.

    WKL Advisory Lane Markings At the time of writing, VicRoads are trialing wide kerbside lane advisory
    markings in some lanes that are in excess of 3.7 metres. The left lane has bike stencils accompanied
    with dotted lines at long intervals. The purpose of the markings is to indicate that bikes and motor
    vehicles share the lane. Drivers recognise that the lane is to be shared with cyclists. They are
    advisory only and have no legal status.

    Dave B.
     
  15. Russell Lang

    Russell Lang Guest

    When it is marked "bicycles 8am-9am" and "no standing",
    but is next to a school and looks like a good place to drop
    off your child. Don't worry that you are blocking the view of
    the school crossing. The safety of your child is more important
    than other children on the crossing or bicycles. Just ignore
    the available parking provided on the other side next to the
    school. It couldn't possible be a "no standing" zone, there
    are two other cars doing the same thing. :)
     
  16. Baka Dasai

    Baka Dasai Guest

    On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 12:22:05 GMT, Spider1977 said (and I quote):
    > Just spent the weekend in Melbourne. Hired a bike and rode with my son along the Yarra Trail to
    > Studley Park Rd and then back through Richmond to Burnley using the bike lane. These are
    > fantastic. Even though there was heavy traffic, no one infringed the well marked lane, apart from
    > intersections where things got a bit dodgy for us, but no real dramas.

    Yes, it's always the intersections that are a bit dodgy. The same is true for cars - accidents tend
    to happen at intersections. The bits between the intersections are very safe for cyclists,
    regardless of whether there is a bike lane or not. As such, I've come to the conclusion that bike
    lanes don't do much good, as they appear to protect against a fairly non-existent threat (being hit
    from behind), but actually complicate driver and cyclist behaviour at the places where the actual
    danger resides - intersections.

    The only counter to this is the possible effect of bike lanes increasing cyclist numbers. That has a
    positive safety benefit for all cyclists.
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  17. Baka Dasai

    Baka Dasai Guest

    On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 19:01:03 +1100, DaveB said (and I quote):

    > Yep, the Bike Vic site was the go. Here's what they had to say about WKL's (wide kerb lanes) which
    > is what the original post was about. Can't see what the point is myself. The lane is to be shared,
    > which is what would happen if the lane wasn't there, and it has no legal status anyway.
    >
    > WKL Advisory Lane Markings At the time of writing, VicRoads are trialing wide kerbside lane
    > advisory markings in some lanes that are in excess of 3.7 metres. The left lane has bike stencils
    > accompanied with dotted lines at long intervals. The purpose of the markings is to indicate that
    > bikes and motor vehicles share the lane. Drivers recognise that the lane is to be shared with
    > cyclists. They are advisory only and have no legal status.

    No legal status? Isn't it the law that all lanes on all roads must be shared between bikes and cars?
    These markings on the road seem to be sending the message that any road without such a marking does
    not have to be shared by cars.

    Maybe there needs to be stencils of bikes on all roads, just to send the right message :)
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  18. Hippy

    Hippy Guest

    "ftf" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:vwzVb.22082
    > i mean the only people that notice those dashed lines every 50 metres with the bicycle symbol are
    > the cyclists!!??!! It is a little better

    Huh? What lines? We do? ;-)

    > However it seems to be quite unfortunate that the quality of the road within these 'part-time'
    > bike lanes is often far below many of the dedicated (and badly made) bike paths around. Does
    > Bridge Rd in Richmond ring a bell here? Nothing quite like riding on bluestone circa 1920's.

    I thought those lines were just to show the street sweepers where to leave the glass..?

    hippy
     
  19. Drs

    Drs Guest

    hippy <[email protected]> wrote in message [email protected]

    [...]

    > I thought those lines were just to show the street sweepers where to leave the glass..?

    Heh. Pay that.

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  20. Spider1977

    Spider1977 New Member

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    To answer the question (FMPOV)

    When it's a bike track with signs about no animals allowed and you pass people walking their dogs (nearly every day).

    Or when it's a cycle track and you see people on Vesper equivalents travelling along it (last Monday at Glenorchy).

    Or when the so called bike lane is really part of the gutter (near the Taroona pub).

    Or when the bike lane is so narrow that you can't even ride a road bike in it without banging your bars on the bushes (again near Taroona).

    Or when there isn't a frigging bike lane at all (99.9999999999% of Tasmanian roads).
     
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