when is the best time to load up on protein?

[closesupport]

you appear to have confused two separate issues.

consuming 12 to 15% (or whatever) of your diet via protein isn't the recommendation if you need to consume ~ 2g/kg body mass. In other words, in more frequently trained/better trained/etc athletes the recommendation for dietary intake is simply measured in g/kg and not as a percentage.

ric

no i haven't as stated 12 15% of the total calories consumed 12 to 15% of the overall calories consumed perday should come from proteins, to aid in recovery..

which works out roughly 1.2 1.4g\kg body weight (aerobic exercise since oxygen demands are supplied )or for strength or power events ( Anerobically working, lack of oxygen kills muscle cells) 1.4 to 1.7g\kg perday.

Dietics agrees with me... ohhh look black and white...
need sleep!

 

[ric_stern/RST]

no i haven't as stated 12 15% of the total calories consumed 12 to 15% of the overall calories consumed perday should come from proteins, to aid in recovery..

which works out roughly 1.2 1.4g\kg body weight (aerobic exercise since oxygen demands are supplied )or for strength or power events ( Anerobically working, lack of oxygen kills muscle cells) 1.4 to 1.7g\kg perday.

Dietics agrees with me... ohhh look black and white...
need sleep!

what are you rambling about? Have you thought about sleeping and then making coherent sentences?

 

[closesupport]

what are you rambling about? Have you thought about sleeping and then making coherent sentences?

yes i have thought about sleeping. im sha**ed been up and at work since 3.ooam and your here keeping me awake with your disagreeing attitude.

15.22 with a bath with a bathbomb with lavender from lush to help me sleep.
www.lush.com nah im having a laugh now seriously i need to sleep,


lol... bike needs anew bottom bracket and i can't be ar*ed taking it to get it swapped for a longer one since i have removed my triple. maybe i'll sleep sometime... but i'll need my b1 if i dont.... aint life fun..

plus i was answering to the cramping thing

 

[Beastt]

i agree with biochem, i'll support his opinion for a change i think he might just right.

how many calories woud you have to consume perday and how many calories would someone have to be to eating 2.0g\kg body weight if that was supposed to be between 12% and 15% of the total calorie intake....

i know i dont want to have to. but i et they recommend atleast 4% of that protein intake come from protein drinks plus suplements. cause if it all came from meat where would the carbs come from.

Interesting that the tendency is to believe that protein has to come from either protein drinks or meat. While meat can provide a lot of protein, it's not the only source. To the best of my knowledge those drinks aren't made from meat extracts, though many may turn to dairy as a source. I believe some of them are a concentrated form of vegetable protein. I may be wrong about that but I suppose it depends on your choice of protein drinks. Anyway, many vegetables provide substantial levels of protein and there are a number of nutritionists who would argue that the vegetable protein is as good as, (some would say superior to), proteins found in meat. It's just an option that some people may not want to overlook.

Among legumes there are soy sprouts wich provide about 54% of thier calories from protein down to garbanzos at 23% protein. In the grains you have wheat germ at 31% down to brown rice at 8%. Spinach, (if you can stomach the stuff. Personally, I can't), supplies 49% of its calories as protein, while kale, broccoli, cauliflower, mushrooms, parsley, lettuce and green peas are all between 30% - 45% protein. Even lemons provide 16% of their calories from protein and most nuts are 12% or higher.
Based on Nutritive Value of American Foods in Common Units, USDA Handbook #456

 

[ed073]

i agree with biochem, i'll support his opinion for a change i think he might just right.

how many calories woud you have to consume perday and how many calories would someone have to be to eating 2.0g\kg body weight if that was supposed to be between 12% and 15% of the total calorie intake....

i know i dont want to have to. but i et they recommend atleast 4% of that protein intake come from protein drinks plus suplements. cause if it all came from meat where would the carbs come from.

Not a percentage. Grams of protein in relation to kgs of bodyweight.

 

[closesupport]

Not a percentage. Grams of protein in relation to kgs of bodyweight.

all proteins are not the same although they are manufactured from the same 22 amino acids. they have different functions and work in different areas of the body.

there are 2 types of protein complete proteins and in complete proteins.
complete proteins provide the proper balance of the 8 necessary ammino acids that build tissue, and is found in foodstuff such as meats, poultry,seafood,eggs,milk and cheese.
incomplete proteins lack certain essential ammino acids and is not used efficiently when eaten alone, however when it is combined with animal source protein, it becomes complete. it is found in seeds, nuts, peas, grains and beans.

mixing complete and incomplete proteins can give you better nutrition than either one alone. A good rice and bean dish can be just as nourishing, less expensive and lower in fat than steak.

everyones protein requirements differ, depending on a variety of factoirs including health,age, and size.

the younger and larger you are the more you require

AGE |||||||||1\3 |4\6 |7\10 |11\14 |15\18 |19+
KEY POUNDS | 0.82 |0.68 |0.55 |0.46 |0.40 |0.36

find the pound key under your age group multiply that number by your weight. the result will be you daily protein requirement in grams.

Example: you weigh 100pounds and are 33 yrs
your pound key is 0.36.

0.36x100=36g your daily intake requirement.

an average minimum protein intake is around 45g a day. thats 15g or about half ounce per meal. make sure you get enough at breakfast!

ohh and i'm 100% carnivour. it wouldn't be a strange site to see 4 or more sausages on my plate plus numerous pieces of bacon, ohh bread beans potatoes and egg. maybe lots of eggs if there scarmbled...

 

[closesupport]

Interesting that the tendency is to believe that protein has to come from either protein drinks or meat. While meat can provide a lot of protein, it's not the only source. To the best of my knowledge those drinks aren't made from meat extracts, though many may turn to dairy as a source. I believe some of them are a concentrated form of vegetable protein. I may be wrong about that but I suppose it depends on your choice of protein drinks. Anyway, many vegetables provide substantial levels of protein and there are a number of nutritionists who would argue that the vegetable protein is as good as, (some would say superior to), proteins found in meat. It's just an option that some people may not want to overlook.

Among legumes there are soy sprouts wich provide about 54% of thier calories from protein down to garbanzos at 23% protein. In the grains you have wheat germ at 31% down to brown rice at 8%. Spinach, (if you can stomach the stuff. Personally, I can't), supplies 49% of its calories as protein, while kale, broccoli, cauliflower, mushrooms, parsley, lettuce and green peas are all between 30% - 45% protein. Even lemons provide 16% of their calories from protein and most nuts are 12% or higher.
Based on Nutritive Value of American Foods in Common Units, USDA Handbook #456

spinach yakkkk! i ate that stuff,i'll stick to seaweed

 

[Beastt]

all proteins are not the same although they are manufactured from the same 22 amino acids. they have different functions and work in different areas of the body.

there are 2 types of protein complete proteins and in complete proteins.
complete proteins provide the proper balance of the 8 necessary ammino acids that build tissue, and is found in foodstuff such as meats, poultry,seafood,eggs,milk and cheese.
incomplete proteins lack certain essential ammino acids and is not used efficiently when eaten alone, however when it is combined with animal source protein, it becomes complete. it is found in seeds, nuts, peas, grains and beans.

mixing complete and incomplete proteins can give you better nutrition than either one alone. A good rice and bean dish can be just as nourishing, less expensive and lower in fat than steak.

(...snip)

Based on information published in Diet for a New America and Diet for a Small Planet; Anniversary Edition, the ideas concerning complete verses incomplete proteins were based on early studies in which rats were used as the test subjects. Using data from these studies it was suggested that the protein in eggs was the best model for the ideal protein. The original Diet for a Small Planet was concerned largely with combining foods to provide proteins with all of the necessary amino acids to form a "complete protein". That book, written by Francis M. Lappe, was first published in the late 60s.

In 1981 Francis Lappe released a re-write of the book in an attempt to correct what she referred to as "the myth" that combining of proteins was necessary to obtain superior protein for human consumption. Diet for a New America goes on to explain that the original model of the "ideal protein" emerged from the aforementioned studies done in the 40s using rats as test subjects and that the measure of quality for protein was based strictly on the growth rates of the rats. Most researchers realized that data obtained from experiments with rats could not be expected to accurately reflect the needs of humans. Unfortunately, the protein industries were quick to latch onto this outdated information and utilize it to promote their products. The books both suggest that this promotion through inaccurate information continues today. Newer studies seem to indicate that humans can fare just as well on vegetable proteins, which had been considered incomplete proteins based on the data from the older studies and that combining isn't really necessary.

Not being a researcher, I can't state whether the information provided in these books is the most accurate available, but they do seem to offer some information for consideration. When you consider human physiology, more credibility is given to the idea that plant proteins should be sufficient for proper human nutrition.

 

[closesupport]

So I have a quick question, I'm guessing ricstern, our resident expert on all things physiology, would be in the best position to answer.

I can intuitively see why taking protein suppliments during weightlifting is probably unnecessary. The actual act of lifting doesn't burn enough calories for your body to begin breaking down protein for energy, and most diets include enough (or more) protein to cover the "rebuilding" that is important to lifting.

Long and hard cardio work does however require more calories than your body is able to provide solely from carbs, and I've read that one burns anywhere from 5-10% of their calories from protein in these cases. First of all, the implication here is that this protein came directly from your muscles. Is this the case? Is there some other protein store that your body can call upon?
Next, does ingesting protein shortly before a ride provide your body with extra protein that will be utilized before that which is stored in your muscles? I.e. if i eat some turkey shortly before a ride will my body be able to get it's extra little bit of energy from the protein that would in theory be floating around in my blood from the turkey? Or will it still pull directly from my muscles (or whatever other store it has)?

I guess the point of these questions being, is there a way to avoid or mitigate the muscle loss that accompanies extended cardio work...

http://www.spinellinutrition.com/Glutamine-QA.html

 

[Beastt]

http://www.spinellinutrition.com/Glutamine-QA.html

I'm not saying that there isn't some worth-while information at the site referred to, but it's wise to remember that these people are trying to sell a product so it's to be expected that they'll try to make it sound as beneficial as possible.

In general, as menglish6 eluded to, most people get more than enough protein from their regular diet. I'm not trying to step on any toes here but some people have simply become so completely sold on the idea that protein is almost a miracle nutrient that they find it hard to believe that most people already consume enough and some even get too much which isn't desirable.

Reports in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, recommendations by the World Health Organization, The Food and Nutrition Board and The National Research Council all show figures between 2½% of total calories consumed and 8% of total calories consumed. These figures are said to be sufficient for 98% of the population which would exclude body builders and others attempting to gain maximum muscle mass.

Unfortunately, many see published results concerning world-class body builders and the extra gains they've shown by increasing protein intake and assume that this means that protein will automatically increase gains in muscle mass for everyone. Protein is a rebuilding material for the body. If you don't damage a lot of tissue in your workouts, as with world-class body building, then most of the extra protein consumed will be wasted. It's like ordering a cubic yard of concrete to repair a tiny chip in a sidewalk. Most of the building material will be unused.

As concerns the reading you mentioned which states that 5% - 10% of energy produced comes from metabolizing protein, what I've read shows a greater range and an inability for experts to agree. Some say that the body is incapable of producing energy by "burning" protein and others claim that only a very small percentage of total energy production can be attributed to utilization of protein. The one constant in what I've read is that the experts seem to agree that carbohydrates are the body's preferred fuel source.

Ricstern may well have some other ideas on this and I'll bow to his more extensive education on the subject but I think much of the hype concerning protein is little more than the aftermath of a large advertizing campaign. If you're getting enough, more won't offer any benefits and too much over a long period can be detrimental.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Ricstern may well have some other ideas on this and I'll bow to his more extensive education on the subject but I think much of the hype concerning protein is little more than the aftermath of a large advertizing campaign. If you're getting enough, more won't offer any benefits and too much over a long period can be detrimental.

i've said this before -- maybe in this thread -- if you're an endurance athlete, or generally most athletes you *DO* have an increased protein demand over the non-exercising population. additionally, if you're a TdF or similar level rider you require more protein than e.g., a body builder - ~ 2.0 g/kg body mass per day. not sure how that fits into the % figures you gave before (of total dietary intake).

Now, on to the crux of the matter -- although protein intake is *increased* with athletes, virtually everyone consumes *more* than enough protein to meet the demands of their activity level without supplementation.

In the western world, in general, we consume more than adequate amounts of protein. our performance at endurance sports is better served by consuming good quality carbohydrates (e.g., pasta, rice, grains, veggies) as opposed to **** carbohydrates (e.g., sugar) which we should try to reduce in our diet.

the resurgent interest in protein supplements, seems to be being advertising led.

oh, and even most vegetarians will consume enough protein. admittedly, if you're a vegan and an elite endurance athlete, you'd need to really think about your diet and plan it with a bit more care. i'm not sure how fruitarians would cope -- but, admittedly i don't know enough about their diets to give a qualified response.

ric

 

[Roadie_scum]

In the western world, in general, we consume more than adequate amounts of protein. our performance at endurance sports is better served by consuming good quality carbohydrates (e.g., pasta, rice, grains, veggies) as opposed to **** carbohydrates (e.g., sugar) which we should try to reduce in our diet.

I think an exception would be during exercise when the 'quality' of carbohydrate matters less (though shouldn't be fructose, lactose or galactose - that's a different sort of quality to nutrient dense low GI forms you described)? Is that right?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I think an exception would be during exercise when the 'quality' of carbohydrate matters less (though shouldn't be fructose, lactose or galactose - that's a different sort of quality to nutrient dense low GI forms you described)? Is that right?

yes, that's right -- apologies -- certainly fructose may cause GI distress, especially in quantites required to fuel exercise. but e.g., table sugar (sucrose) is fine during exercise. For instance, i *think* Gatorade is table sugar and that's a fine drink.

however, we should in general try to reduce our use of sugar and other similar products during non exercise time

ric

 

[Roadie_scum]

yes, that's right -- apologies -- certainly fructose may cause GI distress, especially in quantites required to fuel exercise. but e.g., table sugar (sucrose) is fine during exercise. For instance, i *think* Gatorade is table sugar and that's a fine drink.

however, we should in general try to reduce our use of sugar and other similar products during non exercise time

ric

Cool, no need to apologise. Didn't really think you said anything that was wrong - was just clarifying.

We agree then.

So. Diet of an endurance athlete: Fructose probably is OK in small quantities during exercise but not as the primary fuel. Glucose, sucrose, dextrose, maltose, etc are all fine during exercise as a primary fuel (but rinse with water or chew fluoride gum if you can to avoid cavities if you primarily eat simple sugars and you ride for a long time). 40-80g CHO/hour during endurance exercise. Protein and amino supplements are totally unnecessary, during exercise or otherwise. Recovery meal should be glycemic (high GI) carb (1-1.5g CHO/kg body weight) with small amount of protein (~10-15g). Apart from when exercising, focus should be eating a variety of nutrient dense low GI foods, and ensuring adequate CHO is consumed. Micronutrient insufficiency is unlikely if a wide diet is eaten, but some athletes have specific needs - females and endurance runners should keep a particular eye on eating enough iron and see a doc if they feel they are having trouble with this, other problems will likely need to be diagnosed by a nutritionist or doctor, and will entail specific symptoms. Self-prescription of micronutrient supplements is unlikely to be necessary or helpful.

Good summary?

Gatorade is abour 11 parts sucrose to 4 parts glucose from memory.

(I'm getting a paper in the next few days which purports to show a higher rate of exogenous CHO oxidation than 80g/hour in top level ironman triathletes - will post some info when I get it - I think higher levels of CHO consumption may be warranted in some events for some athletes)

 

[Downhill Jonny]

I normally eat tons of carbs before a ride and after i load up on protein. Is this the right way of doing it? When should you load up on protein?

As a general rule you have 30min after each ride to efficiently get fuel back into the body to repair and build the muscles. I normally have a high protein shake as soon as I get back and rehydrate with some Cytomax.

But it depends on how long you ride for and what you are trying to achieve / training for (weight loss, race, base trianing etc) which will also determine your intake before and after the ride.

For weight loss, try some "bonk training", nothing before and a protein shake after.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Cool, no need to apologise. Didn't really think you said anything that was wrong - was just clarifying.

We agree then.

So. Diet of an endurance athlete: Fructose probably is OK in small quantities during exercise but not as the primary fuel. Glucose, sucrose, dextrose, maltose, etc are all fine during exercise as a primary fuel (but rinse with water or chew fluoride gum if you can to avoid cavities if you primarily eat simple sugars and you ride for a long time). 40-80g CHO/hour during endurance exercise. Protein and amino supplements are totally unnecessary, during exercise or otherwise. Recovery meal should be glycemic (high GI) carb (1-1.5g CHO/kg body weight) with small amount of protein (~10-15g). Apart from when exercising, focus should be eating a variety of nutrient dense low GI foods, and ensuring adequate CHO is consumed. Micronutrient insufficiency is unlikely if a wide diet is eaten, but some athletes have specific needs - females and endurance runners should keep a particular eye on eating enough iron and see a doc if they feel they are having trouble with this, other problems will likely need to be diagnosed by a nutritionist or doctor, and will entail specific symptoms. Self-prescription of micronutrient supplements is unlikely to be necessary or helpful.

Good summary?

Gatorade is abour 11 parts sucrose to 4 parts glucose from memory.

(I'm getting a paper in the next few days which purports to show a higher rate of exogenous CHO oxidation than 80g/hour in top level ironman triathletes - will post some info when I get it - I think higher levels of CHO consumption may be warranted in some events for some athletes)

i think it's a good summary -- can't see anything obvious missing, but as i'm sat here with a banging headache and sinusitis i may have missed something!

the only thing that really springs to mind is the low/high GI stuff. i'm not sure there's a lot of credible evidence to back it up, especially in an athletic population. (that doesn't mean to say i'm suggesting sugar etc should be eaten in large quantities).

ric

 

[ric_stern/RST]

As a general rule you have 30min after each ride to efficiently get fuel back into the body to repair and build the muscles. I normally have a high protein shake as soon as I get back and rehydrate with some Cytomax.

the protein shake is marketing hype. you need carbohydrates, fluids and electrolytes

But it depends on how long you ride for and what you are trying to achieve / training for (weight loss, race, base trianing etc) which will also determine your intake before and after the ride.

For weight loss, try some "bonk training", nothing before and a protein shake after.

"bonk training" is to put it bluntly, complete ****, it's a waste of time, not particuarly useful, and may cause diabetes.

ric

 

[Downhill Jonny]

the protein shake is marketing hype. you need carbohydrates, fluids and electrolytes




"bonk training" is to put it bluntly, complete ****, it's a waste of time, not particuarly useful, and may cause diabetes.

ric

Been reading all your threads and what you have been saying makes alot of sense. Thanks for the insight, really puts alot in perspective, should have read a bit further before posting.

 

[closesupport]

the protein shake is marketing hype. you need carbohydrates, fluids and electrolytes




"bonk training" is to put it bluntly, complete ****, it's a waste of time, not particuarly useful, and may cause diabetes.

ric

I usually opt for a slim fast or 2 since it provides quite alot of Kcal for that immediate fix, while real food is being prepared, or afew raw eggs milk sugar and a banna blended if im at home. its proably a cheeper alternative but at leaste you know whats gone into it.

i agree with the bonk training thing, its probably a bad idea to deplete glycogen stores, its probaly a better i dea to avoid it from happening and take on carbs fluid and electrolytes during. Since depleting stores will only inhibit performance.

although my favourite drink is one i used to preapare myself:

Glucose > adjust the amount as it is required
Salt > a small amount, not to much since it helps assist in fluid absorbtion to much inhibits it
water >
Fruit juice simply for taste.

 

[Beastt]

I usually opt for a slim fast or 2 since it provides quite alot of Kcal for that immediate fix, while real food is being prepared, or afew raw eggs milk sugar and a banna blended if im at home. its proably a cheeper alternative but at leaste you know whats gone into it.

i agree with the bonk training thing, its probably a bad idea to deplete glycogen stores, its probaly a better i dea to avoid it from happening and take on carbs fluid and electrolytes during. Since depleting stores will only inhibit performance.

although my favourite drink is one i used to preapare myself:

Glucose > adjust the amount as it is required
Salt > a small amount, not to much since it helps assist in fluid absorbtion to much inhibits it
water >
Fruit juice simply for taste.

I'm assuming the raw eggs are to supply the much touted, "complete protein". If so it may be noted that some have labeled the need for such as a myth, including one author, (Frances M Lappe), who credits herself with having created that myth and the supposed need for combining of non-animal based foods, (also proclaimed to be unnecessary in her second book). I would also keep in mind that a single medium sized egg contains around 218 mg of cholesterol in the yoke which makes it one of the most cholesterol dense foods on the average person's menu.

Sodium, as I think you're implying, should be in balance with levels found outside the gastric system in order to provide maximum fluid absorption. Too much and fluids must be drawn into the digestive system to balance electrolyte levels. Too little and sodium must be drawn into the digestive system to balance electrolyte levels. Too far either way, as I understand it, and fluid absorption is delayed. I'm not sure exactly how much is required, I would guess it would be better to drink slightly higher levels of sodium after endurance exercise since both fluid and sodium levels will be diminished. I'm guessing RicStern and/or Roadie-Scum could provide some general figures as well as a better explanation of the reasoning involved.