B
Badger_South
Guest
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:58:34 GMT, "neil0502" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Yeah, but . . . . as a cyclist, I try to limit my impact on other cyclists,
>drivers, etc., etc. As a driver, I do likewise. I've tallied it up. On
>an annual basis, it costs me . . . . nothing.
Thinking about it, one of the things that's on my mind when biking and
encountering traffic is to project a good image to the motorists - yes, I
actually think 'if I wave, the driver will take a nice feeling about bikers
with him/her'. Of course I actually -feel- friendly also. I admit that I
rarely, if ever, have felt this when driving towards other drivers - 'oh,
let me sit up straight and yield'. (I do wave when I'm let in line,
though).
>> Generally, I'm -extremely- courteous on the road when biking, and always
>> wave to motorists that give me a few seconds to make make a turn, or
>>avoid right or left hooking me.
>
>Didn't mean to single you out, per se.
>
>> However let me ask you this. Just how much discourteous behavior is
>> possible on a bike, fercrissakes? Not much. Maybe taking the road for a
>> seconds too long, and running some stop signs, not just to get somewhere
>> sooner, but to keep from unclipping and to allow taking the next steep;
>> perhaps turning or weaving unpredictably. But the big thing is it's not
>> done in anger.
>
>I understand that. I'm a cyclist, a motorcyclist, and a driver. A cyclist
>doing 75% of all of the things that a cyclist can do to be discourterous
>(IMHO) is being as rude as a driver doing 75% of all the things that a
>driver can do to be discourteous. The potential effect may be vastly
>different, but the mindset and the antisocial behavior seem equivalent to
>me.
Not sure I follow this. I'd guess that -very- few cyclists use their bikes
to perform discourteous behavior on purpose, knowing how vulnerable they
are. Now, some behavior may end up -appearing- as discourteous, depending
on the motorist's view. I'm sure a few drivers have been miffed at seeing
me run a stop sign _even though they were several carlengths_ back from the
intersection. The reason? Jealousy that a cop would blow it off? (or in
Connecticutt that it's legal to 'yield' if no traffic").
The point is drivers -try- to find reasons to view biking behavior as
discourteous even if they were affected in -no- way by this behavior. "Oh
look that biker is weaving! That really pisses me off that they can do that
- they should be on the sidewalk!". They don't think 'oh, look that nice
biker just got stung by a bee'.
>I also don't know that Joe Weenie Driver particularly cares about the
>cyclist's motivation; rather, the motorist may care only about the effect
>(if any) that the cyclist has on the driver's precious commuting time, or
>that they had to set down their Starbucks and swerve to avoid the bike.
>Right or wrong, this does oft seem the case.
Thus it rarely matters what behavior a cyclist exhibits, it's seen as
disrespectful a priori - "the nerve, being on my road that I paid for". So
why bother? But in actuality, most bikers are trying to stay out of the way
and not provoke motorists, I'd guess.
>Rule #1 in negotiations: understand what's important to the other side.
As a driver the only important thing is that the biker try to be as
predictable as possible, which basically means giving ample warning before
turning left, and taking care so as not to be right hooked, unseen.
>> But imagine how much discourteous behavior is possible, and in fact
>> frequently seen in a car?
>
>I want us to be better than them, not as bad as, or worse than them. I
>think the same way when talking to people about driving.
Again, there are so few cyclists that it really has no effect. Have you
ever heard any drivers say anything nice about a cyclists? "he was so nice
to pull over and let me go by; he did a great job of signalling a turn" Not
likely. They will only remember the bad behavior, even if it only happened
to them once in their lifetime.
>> So we all know who has to take the brunt of the suggestion to be
>>courteous, now, don't we? ;-)
>
>In the political parlance: an asymmetric threat?? ;-)
Well in the case of motorists, huge threat to themselves, bikers and
pedestrians without even trying, and in most cases completely unaware of
that fact - else why would anyone yak on a cell phone or fish for cassette
tapes on the floor of the passenger side while driving?
-B
>Yeah, but . . . . as a cyclist, I try to limit my impact on other cyclists,
>drivers, etc., etc. As a driver, I do likewise. I've tallied it up. On
>an annual basis, it costs me . . . . nothing.
Thinking about it, one of the things that's on my mind when biking and
encountering traffic is to project a good image to the motorists - yes, I
actually think 'if I wave, the driver will take a nice feeling about bikers
with him/her'. Of course I actually -feel- friendly also. I admit that I
rarely, if ever, have felt this when driving towards other drivers - 'oh,
let me sit up straight and yield'. (I do wave when I'm let in line,
though).
>> Generally, I'm -extremely- courteous on the road when biking, and always
>> wave to motorists that give me a few seconds to make make a turn, or
>>avoid right or left hooking me.
>
>Didn't mean to single you out, per se.
>
>> However let me ask you this. Just how much discourteous behavior is
>> possible on a bike, fercrissakes? Not much. Maybe taking the road for a
>> seconds too long, and running some stop signs, not just to get somewhere
>> sooner, but to keep from unclipping and to allow taking the next steep;
>> perhaps turning or weaving unpredictably. But the big thing is it's not
>> done in anger.
>
>I understand that. I'm a cyclist, a motorcyclist, and a driver. A cyclist
>doing 75% of all of the things that a cyclist can do to be discourterous
>(IMHO) is being as rude as a driver doing 75% of all the things that a
>driver can do to be discourteous. The potential effect may be vastly
>different, but the mindset and the antisocial behavior seem equivalent to
>me.
Not sure I follow this. I'd guess that -very- few cyclists use their bikes
to perform discourteous behavior on purpose, knowing how vulnerable they
are. Now, some behavior may end up -appearing- as discourteous, depending
on the motorist's view. I'm sure a few drivers have been miffed at seeing
me run a stop sign _even though they were several carlengths_ back from the
intersection. The reason? Jealousy that a cop would blow it off? (or in
Connecticutt that it's legal to 'yield' if no traffic").
The point is drivers -try- to find reasons to view biking behavior as
discourteous even if they were affected in -no- way by this behavior. "Oh
look that biker is weaving! That really pisses me off that they can do that
- they should be on the sidewalk!". They don't think 'oh, look that nice
biker just got stung by a bee'.
>I also don't know that Joe Weenie Driver particularly cares about the
>cyclist's motivation; rather, the motorist may care only about the effect
>(if any) that the cyclist has on the driver's precious commuting time, or
>that they had to set down their Starbucks and swerve to avoid the bike.
>Right or wrong, this does oft seem the case.
Thus it rarely matters what behavior a cyclist exhibits, it's seen as
disrespectful a priori - "the nerve, being on my road that I paid for". So
why bother? But in actuality, most bikers are trying to stay out of the way
and not provoke motorists, I'd guess.
>Rule #1 in negotiations: understand what's important to the other side.
As a driver the only important thing is that the biker try to be as
predictable as possible, which basically means giving ample warning before
turning left, and taking care so as not to be right hooked, unseen.
>> But imagine how much discourteous behavior is possible, and in fact
>> frequently seen in a car?
>
>I want us to be better than them, not as bad as, or worse than them. I
>think the same way when talking to people about driving.
Again, there are so few cyclists that it really has no effect. Have you
ever heard any drivers say anything nice about a cyclists? "he was so nice
to pull over and let me go by; he did a great job of signalling a turn" Not
likely. They will only remember the bad behavior, even if it only happened
to them once in their lifetime.
>> So we all know who has to take the brunt of the suggestion to be
>>courteous, now, don't we? ;-)
>
>In the political parlance: an asymmetric threat?? ;-)
Well in the case of motorists, huge threat to themselves, bikers and
pedestrians without even trying, and in most cases completely unaware of
that fact - else why would anyone yak on a cell phone or fish for cassette
tapes on the floor of the passenger side while driving?
-B