Where does Lance rank among the greats?

[limerickman]

Reminds me of boogerd in the dutch press. What IF he could change all those podium places for wins.....he would have been the next museeuw. Too bad IFS don't count.

And read my post before....funny that the nay-sayers never mention ullrich, mayo, botero, mcgee too name of view, to ride the classics and widen their view.

Armstrong has a good record in amstel and liege finishing both races 2 times 2nd and a time 4th in amstel. What about the 2002 season.....were was der JAN.............yawn!

You're right.
They're all as bad as each other when it comes to not competing throughout the year.

The fact is that as fans we're being shortchanged by all of the so-called major stars of today.

Hinault is right - they're paid too much and they don't need to compete with their guaranteed salaries.
Their salaries and wages should, as Hinault says, be based on results.

 

[JRMDC]

By sheer bad timing in posting simultaneously, we are talking a bit past each other, and in fact disagreeing not so much. I agree with you regarding Ullrich. I have no idea, in fact, what he is known for in the sport besides his string of TdF performances and a Vuelta win. Armstrong has done more. I'm no Ullrich fan.

But, because LA has done more, and accomplished much more head-to-head vs Ullrich, he gets held to a higher expectation. I have no problem with that.

I know youre not a nay-sayer......I merely was pointing out that the logic that ONLY LA must widen his view...and not the rest of the tour contenders.....is no logic. I even would want to argue with the limited races LA does in a year he does more good then a Ullrich....who btw raced the last seasons less then armstrong and always out of shape.

But somehow fans forgive ullrich for that.........again no logic!

 

[JRMDC]

Speaking of which, where is Heras (my #2 favorite after Hincapie)? Last year he was great, regardless of his TdF failure, with the Euskal Bizikleta and the Vuelta. This year, hardly a squeak from him, and a weak Dauphine. Did he even race before the Dauphine? I believe he did do some support in one of the earlier Spanish stage races; can't remember which one.

Anyway, disappointing so far.

The fact is that as fans we're being shortchanged by all of the so-called major stars of today.

 

[meehs]

I know youre not a nay-sayer......I merely was pointing out that the logic that ONLY LA must widen his view...and not the rest of the tour contenders.....is no logic. I even would want to argue with the limited races LA does in a year he does more good then a Ullrich....who btw raced the last seasons less then armstrong and always out of shape.

But somehow fans forgive ullrich for that.........again no logic!

What Armsrtong has done by choosing to selectively pick and choose the races in which he competes in order to prepare for (and win) the TdF can be criticized all one likes. But what it has done for Armstrong is make him the highest paid and most financially successful cyclist in history. Period. Whether folks like it or not is really inconsequential. It was a very shrewd decision by Armstrong to take this approach. Like it or not. You can whine all day long about LA not racing enough and wonder about what he might have done in other races. Armstrong will be laughing all the way to the bank. He has set the precedent and other cyclists will be doing the very same thing long after LA has retired.

It would be interesting to see if these same people are still *****ing about it when it's a European that's taking the very same approach and winning multiple TdF's. These people simply hate Lance Armstrong. It's a vendetta against this one particular cyclist and these individuals will point to anything in order to try to vilify him. That's all there is to it.

 

[JRMDC]

I don't disagree with you that some or many such hating people exist. I simply point out that there are also others, like me, who respect his accomplishements but wonder, given his capabilities, what he might have achieved had he also pursued other races. Whether there are more "haters" or more "wonderers" out there, I don't know.

Again, whether for money, family, fame, or whatever reasons, LA was free to choose a restricted race schedule.

Now, if it turns out to be Popovych taking the "Armstrong" single-focus approach and winning those multiple TdFs, while wearing a Discovery jersey, you will certainly see much, much ongoing distress and whining.

It would be interesting to see if these same people are still *****ing about it when it's a European that's taking the very same approach and winning multiple TdF's. These people simply hate Lance Armstrong. It's a vendetta against this one particular cyclist and these individuals will point to anything in order to try to vilify him. That's all there is to it.

 

[meehs]

I don't disagree with you that some or many such hating people exist. I simply point out that there are also others, like me, who respect his accomplishements but wonder, given his capabilities, what he might have achieved had he also pursued other races...

Don't get me wrong, I'm curious as to what Armstrong may have done in other races had he chosen to compete in them too. One has to wonder! But to point to the fact that he hasn't raced in a lot of other races as something that diminishes what he has accomplished or to say that since he doesn't have as many wins outside of the TdF as some of the other greats makes him a lesser champion is somewhat ridiculous in my opinion.

Armstrong obviously made a conscious decision to forego attempting to win a lot of races in order to focus on winning the one race that he knew would be the most lucrative. The TdF. Like it or not it was a shrewd move and it got him where he is today. Good or bad, because of what Armstrong has done, you'll probably see all of the future TdF GC contenders following this same path. I don't necessarily like it either. That's just the way it is.

 

[MJtje]

I will give you this IF armstrong wasn't there Ullrich would have been the 7 time tour winner. I would have wanted to see the forum then. Boring jan blalala...........will someone finally attack him. That would be fun to see......!

I don't disagree with you that some or many such hating people exist. I simply point out that there are also others, like me, who respect his accomplishements but wonder, given his capabilities, what he might have achieved had he also pursued other races. Whether there are more "haters" or more "wonderers" out there, I don't know.

Again, whether for money, family, fame, or whatever reasons, LA was free to choose a restricted race schedule.

Now, if it turns out to be Popovych taking the "Armstrong" single-focus approach and winning those multiple TdFs, while wearing a Discovery jersey, you will certainly see much, much ongoing distress and whining.

 

[Bjorn P.Dal]

but wasnt booring Jan at both the olympics and the worlds last year ?

I will give you this IF armstrong wasn't there Ullrich would have been the 7 time tour winner. I would have wanted to see the forum then. Boring jan blalala...........will someone finally attack him. That would be fun to see......!

 

[MJtje]

Lol boring jan and races.......can someone get the races and results of the last seasons.......especially the RESULTS between jan and lance. But shall we end this discussion.........that's just modern day cycling. It will only get worse...and basso is the (nice) exception.....

T. Dekker (20) is now allready talking about the tour.....in a few years I want this, that, tour stage win, maybe tt win, maybe overall bllaalla.....that's THE race. Too bad!

but wasnt booring Jan at both the olympics and the worlds last year ?

 

[limerickman]

What Armsrtong has done by choosing to selectively pick and choose the races in which he competes in order to prepare for (and win) the TdF can be criticized all one likes. But what it has done for Armstrong is make him the highest paid and most financially successful cyclist in history. Period. Whether folks like it or not is really inconsequential. It was a very shrewd decision by Armstrong to take this approach. Like it or not. You can whine all day long about LA not racing enough and wonder about what he might have done in other races. Armstrong will be laughing all the way to the bank. He has set the precedent and other cyclists will be doing the very same thing long after LA has retired.

It would be interesting to see if these same people are still *****ing about it when it's a European that's taking the very same approach and winning multiple TdF's. These people simply hate Lance Armstrong. It's a vendetta against this one particular cyclist and these individuals will point to anything in order to try to vilify him. That's all there is to it.

You can be guaranteed Meehs, that I will certainly ***** about people who
may adopt the same approach.
I can understand - but cannot condone - Armstrong's approach to the sport.

But I want to see a champion - a rider for all seasons - come out of the peloton and win classics, grand tours etc.

With the passage of time - and I will be brutally honest here - I can well recall people complaining that Indurain was not a real champion because he didn't have a Paris-R or any classic to his name.
Indurain in comparison to Armstrong/ullrich is an all rounder !

Reared on a diet of Sean Kelly/Bernard Hinault/Greg LeMond : I'm glad that I saw this sport when it was a better spectacle than it is now.

 

[mitosis]

Yes sorry it was more directed to tejano........we on the other hand look through that PR BS. But every teams has there own PR and always creates a nicer image, disco is certainly not the only one.

If you look at the rabo site they tell for each stage a story and they tell well the rabo's were again not in the break, but hee it can't happen all the time. The same day breukink in the press........pff the rabo's MISSED the break again. Luckily we have 3 more weeks to prepare for the tour...

You see that you can better depend on the press then some rabo site.....although it's not that bad. Just to give an idea!

Another example is yesterdays stage in the tour de suisse where both Mcgee and Ullrich pretended not to really want to wear the yellow (because of the effort on team to defend it).

Can you imagine any team seriously turning down yellow for a day - or in this case a few days? LOL.

Even cycle team publicity has spin.

 

[EoinC]

...Reared on a diet of Sean Kelly/Bernard Hinault/Greg LeMond : I'm glad that I saw this sport when it was a better spectacle than it is now...

I feel the same way. In earlier years there was an expectation that elite pro's would ride a full season. The change in focus has come about for a number of reasons, not the least of which is Worldwide televising of the TdF and its introduction to the non-cycling populaces outside of greater Europe (who have come to view the TdF as a proxy World Championship).
This is driven by the money / publicity cauldron and is not likely to see a return to full season competition through riders expectations alone. It can now only really be changed by force - changing the rules with regard to establishing race attendance requirements prior to being eligible for the TdF.
Perhaps we need to through in the occassional TdF with the peloton reverting to National Teams as of old, just to stir the pot a little (and get rid of that endless procession of flat sprinter stages before the first decent col)?

 

[mitosis]

You can be guaranteed Meehs, that I will certainly ***** about people who
may adopt the same approach.
I can understand - but cannot condone - Armstrong's approach to the sport.

But I want to see a champion - a rider for all seasons - come out of the peloton and win classics, grand tours etc.

With the passage of time - and I will be brutally honest here - I can well recall people complaining that Indurain was not a real champion because he didn't have a Paris-R or any classic to his name.
Indurain in comparison to Armstrong/ullrich is an all rounder !

Reared on a diet of Sean Kelly/Bernard Hinault/Greg LeMond : I'm glad that I saw this sport when it was a better spectacle than it is now.

I feel the same too. There is too much money available that isn't tied to performance and results.

Cyclists should race the season, peaking for their favoured events, competing largely on their own ability.

 

[tcklyde]

I feel the same too. There is too much money available that isn't tied to performance and results.

Cyclists should race the season, peaking for their favoured events, competing largely on their own ability.

What most annoys me is that the sport has divided into different sorts of riders: the classics men, the sprinters, and the grand tour riders. And unfortunately, even the grand tours have divided up between Giro guys like Simioni and Savodelli, Tour riders like Ullrich and Armstrong, and Vuelta contenders like Heras. It's as if each race has its favorites, but none really cross race boundries. A few, like Boonen, can have a sort of double life in the classics and sprints, but for most, it's pick a race or two and ignore everything else. Eric Dekker and PvP aren't grand tour contenders but have been counted on at the classics. Others, like Ullrich and Armstrong, rarely show up at the classics, and if they do, it's almost never for contention. So few riders bother to race seriously for anything but "their" race.

A guy like Vino deserves our especial respect for putting in a long and strong season. I hope he fairs well at the Tour.

 

[EoinC]

What most annoys me is that the sport has divided into different sorts of riders...

In modern sports where there are so many external influences, it is necessary for the controlling bodies to engineer the rules and schedules in order to create a balance. An example is the controls that have been brought in to play with F1 car racing so as to create a full season of actual competition.
As long as the rules permit specialising, we are unlikely to see a return to the full season competition that existed up into the 80's.

 

[mitosis]

What most annoys me is that the sport has divided into different sorts of riders: the classics men, the sprinters, and the grand tour riders. And unfortunately, even the grand tours have divided up between Giro guys like Simioni and Savodelli, Tour riders like Ullrich and Armstrong, and Vuelta contenders like Heras. It's as if each race has its favorites, but none really cross race boundries. A few, like Boonen, can have a sort of double life in the classics and sprints, but for most, it's pick a race or two and ignore everything else. Eric Dekker and PvP aren't grand tour contenders but have been counted on at the classics. Others, like Ullrich and Armstrong, rarely show up at the classics, and if they do, it's almost never for contention. So few riders bother to race seriously for anything but "their" race.

A guy like Vino deserves our especial respect for putting in a long and strong season. I hope he fairs well at the Tour.

That's why its easy to admire a man like Zabel, too. He's in everything. Many sprinters would have retired in his postition 3 or 4 years ago when they stopped winning the sprints. For a sprinter he goes up hills and time trials pretty well.

 

[whiteboytrash]

See it wasn’t the gear after all....

http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=1264

Armstrong 18% better than 1996

6/15/2005

It's official, Lance Armstrong is a significiantly better athlete now than he was a decade ago before he had cancer - 18% better in fact!

"Scientific backing for those who maintain that Lance Armstrong is a much better athlete following his battle against testicular cancer than he was before it has been provided by Ed Coyle, director of the University of Texas’ Human Performance Laboratory. According to a paper by Coyle that is published in the June edition of The Journal of Applied Physiology, Armstrong is no less than 18 per cent better as an athlete now than he was before he had cancer.

According to Coyle, “Lance is arguably the best endurance athlete on the planet,” and most of his improvement in recent years is the result of better development and efficiency of his muscles. Much of the rest can be attributed to significant weight loss.

In the nine years since being diagnosed with cancer, Armstrong has significantly increased his power-to-weight ratio and muscle efficiency. In 1996, the American who was then regarded as an all-rounder rather than a major tour specialist weighed in at 174 pounds. His racing weight now is around 159. However, the loss in body weight has not resulted in a loss in power output. According to Coyle, the reverse has taken place, giving Armstrong a power-to-weight ratio that, says Coyle, is better than that of five-time Tour winner Miguel Indurain and an on a par with that of Eddy Merckx, generally regarded as the best rider of all time.

In addition, Coyle says that Armstrong has improved the efficiency of his muscles, boosting the use of slow-twitch fibres that give him greater endurance than his rivals, particularly when riding on extremely tough mountain stages. “It's a huge amount, simply phenomenal,” said Coyle of Armstrong’s improvement as an athlete over the past decade.

 

[limerickman]

What most annoys me is that the sport has divided into different sorts of riders: the classics men, the sprinters, and the grand tour riders. And unfortunately, even the grand tours have divided up between Giro guys like Simioni and Savodelli, Tour riders like Ullrich and Armstrong, and Vuelta contenders like Heras. It's as if each race has its favorites, but none really cross race boundries. A few, like Boonen, can have a sort of double life in the classics and sprints, but for most, it's pick a race or two and ignore everything else. Eric Dekker and PvP aren't grand tour contenders but have been counted on at the classics. Others, like Ullrich and Armstrong, rarely show up at the classics, and if they do, it's almost never for contention. So few riders bother to race seriously for anything but "their" race.

A guy like Vino deserves our especial respect for putting in a long and strong season. I hope he fairs well at the Tour.

The 2005 Giro.
Eurosport commentary stated that "McEwen and Baden Cooke were pulling out of the Giro because the route was entering the mountains (this was after stage 10, I think)......and these sprinters wanted to go away and prepare for the TDF !!!"

It is pathetic.

 

[Tejano]

If you consider the 1985/86/87 Vuelta : 1994 December Cycle Sport Magazine Sean Kelly tribute re Sean's career in the Vuelta
"the Vuelta during the 1980's was designed with Spanish climbers in mind. Great climbers like Robert Millar finished strongly in the Vuelta during the mid-1980's. Which made Kelly's withdrawal in the 1987 Vuelta all the more poigniant. Kelly wearing the Amorillo jersey had to withdraw from the Vuelta with two stages to go after suffering terrible saddle sores.............."

Yeah, the Vuelta was pan flat, wasn;t it ?

I know it´s not pan flat! But honestly which is more difficult the mountain stages in the TDF or the Vuelta?

Because the Vuelta was designed with Spanish climbers in mind has absolutly no meaning without a context! What was it like before it was designed for climbers? How many mountain stages were there? How would they compare with the mountain stages in the Giro and TDF?

As for Robert Millars saddle sores what the hell is your point?
by Bernie Burton, M.D.

A warm, humid crotch and lots of pedaling can lead to skin problems, including the classic saddle sore, in all its throbbing, raging glory.

The saddle sore develops in three stages.

Stage 1: Hot Spot or Abrasion

This is caused by rubbing your thighs and skin under the ischial tuberosities (ishi al toober aw cities, but from now on, just "sit bones") against the saddle. Pedaling or just riding over bumps can cause this.

Since abrasion is the cause, decrease or eliminate it. Here's how:

Stage 2: Folliculitis

This looks like acne -- small red bumps with puss-filled heads. These are found in hair follicles, and there's often a hair sprouting right out of the puss-filled bump. If this sounds like something you'd like to prevent, just ride with freshly-laundered cycling shorts each day, and/or use lots of Vaseline. Topical antibiotic gel or oral antibiotics may help, too.

Note: If you start your rides with a clean crotch and a clean, Vaseline-covered chamois, and you reapply Vaseline daily, you can go a week or two without laundering your shorts. That's how good Vaseline is.

Stage 3: Abscess

This is an infected, red, hot, swollen, tender bump that varies in diameter between a third of an inch to two inches. These frequently scar over and may form sinus tracks with extensions going in multiple directions from the original lesion. In addition, cysts may form that totally surround the abscess after it has been resolved, or may develop directly from the folliculitis stage without abscess development.

If an abscess occurs, quit riding until they're healed. Go to your doctor (whom you should have seen before now), who then may prescribe oral antibiotics.

The mountains were so big he got saddle sores? Do big mountains cause saddle sores? Do long flat stages cause saddle sores?
He withdrew after the mountains had finished! And MI withdrew that same year in stage 12, before even getting to the mountains!

 

[limerickman]

As for Robert Millars saddle sores what the hell is your point?
by Bernie Burton, M.D.

Where did I refer to Robert Millar having saddle sores ?

You need to read what I wrote, before you posted the above rubbish.

I wrote Sean kelly withdrew from the Vuelta with two stages to go because
of saddle sores.
No mention was made of Robert Millar and saddle sores.

I know it´s not pan flat! But honestly which is more difficult the mountain stages in the TDF or the Vuelta?

Because the Vuelta was designed with Spanish climbers in mind has absolutly no meaning without a context! What was it like before it was designed for climbers? How many mountain stages were there? How would they compare with the mountain stages in the Giro and TDF?

The Vuelta, in respect of climbing prowess, is as tough as a TDF.
In the 1980's the Vuelta was specifically tailored to climbers :

1985 : Podium Delgado, Millar, Rodriguez.
1986 : Podium Pino, Millar, Kelly.
1987 : Podium Herrera, Dietzen, Fignon

All except Kelly were noted climbers.

As for Robert Millars saddle sores what the hell is your point?
by Bernie Burton, M.D.

A warm, humid crotch and lots of pedaling can lead to skin problems, including the classic saddle sore, in all its throbbing, raging glory.

The saddle sore develops in three stages.

I never stated that saddle sores afflicted R Millar in the Vuelta.

I said that S Kelly had saddle sores in the 1987 Vuelta : I didn't state that climbing mountains gave him saddle sores.

I referred you to what was written in the CS December 1994 Sean kelly
special edition : which stated that the Vuelta in the 1980's was designed with climbers in mind and that Sean Kelly having struggled to get to a winning position in the 1987 Vuelta had to withdraw.
The emphasis here being that the Vuelta was a climbers tour.