Where does Lance rank among the greats?



That's the nasty thing about illegal doping, whistleblowers lose money and job opportunities.

When riders retire from racing---they typically remain in the cycling industry. Sales, marketing, distribution, team management, corporate spokesman, coach, trainer, etc...

The Omerta will be enforced, not by lawsuits, but through 'blackballing' and other financial opportunity costs.

You cannot indemnify my sources, so you will not learn their names.

1) You won't believe them anyway
2) plenty of whistleblowers out there already
3) nothing will change, and doping will continue

Feel free to befriend your own retired pros, unless fairytales themes are more enjoyable to read.




MJtje said:
Still my question.......which you probably won't answer.
 
Look, they are all on drugs. All of em.

Not the very same drugs, same doses, frequencies, protocols.

Not everyone uses Michele Ferrari who is very expensive. His teacher (Francesco Conconi) refers to him more as a businessman than a physician now, due to his fee schedule.

Everyone dopes, but it is an 'arms race' which clearly Ferrari, not Lance has won. (Berzin, Rominger, Armstrong)

Keep swinging.


rejobako said:
I certainly hope you are not suggesting that all the other cyclists are tested for substances which Armstrong is not. If that is not your assertion, then "man" in your quote above should be changed to "men", in which case there's no particular reason for you to single out Armstrong for criticism, unless of course it just galls the hell out of you that he keeps winning the world's premier cycling event.
 
Flyer said:
That's the nasty thing about illegal doping, whistleblowers lose money and job opportunities.
Forgive me, but that's an awfully convenient excuse for throwing out rumor as fact. "I know a guy who used to race, and he says they're all doping." Tell your buddy to authorize you to give us his name, or tell him to shut up and watch the race.

If your friend is as well-informed as he says, he could earn a lot more money from a tell-all book-deal than he ever will peddling bike frames or whatever he does for a living these days. I'll be happy to put him in touch with any number of publishers who would be happy to give him a solid advance on a book deal. All he has to do is name names.
 
If the shoe fits? The title of most 'untested man in sport' goes to the fruad who proclaims his innocence too often with the meaningless phrase: "most tested".

The specific drugs, most powerful kinds, are of a research nature and technically do not even exist.

Many other 'over-the-counter' drugs can be masked and detected only if the rider makes a mistake or gets unlucky.

TDF winners do not need luck----they get a doping pass as the commercial sponsors do not wish any leader to embarrass their funded message.

It's just good business practice.

You keep referring to the TDF as if it were a Corinthean sport of honest men. It is not!
 
And you would be dead wrong.

Whistleblowing books make no money.

You would never buy it, only a few would ---and the US media will not even permit a doping book to be widely published. (it offends the advertisers who sponsor (fund) the doping in the first place)

It took years to get Jose Conseco book distributed.

David Walsh will eventually get his 'english version' distributed in the USA---only after LA retires. btw: It already exists in print.

A lifetime of compensation made by keeping dirty secrets is far greater than truthtelling.

That's is a financial fact.

And do not presume I have only one, or just a few sources. The dopers run into the thousands.

Anyway, plenty of publicly disgraced dopers for you to wonder about, champions and water carriers alike.

Johan Museeuw, Eddie Merckx, Tyler Hamilton, Oscar Camenzind, Alex Zulle, Pascal Herve, Eddy Plankaert, Carey Hall, Shane Perkins, Mark French, Jobie Dajka, Richard Virenque, Laurent Fignon, Marco Pantani, Michele Ferrari, Hawaii Ironman winners, 16 year old South African cyclists.

There are thousands of public dopers. Think of the tens of thousands who never spoke up or were caught by housekeeping??????

You should have no trouble verifying doping in sport. Cycling is especially easy.


rejobako said:
Forgive me, but that's an awfully convenient excuse for throwing out rumor as fact. "I know a guy who used to race, and he says they're all doping." Tell your buddy to authorize you to give us his name, or tell him to shut up and watch the race.

If your friend is as well-informed as he says, he could earn a lot more money from a tell-all book-deal than he ever will peddling bike frames or whatever he does for a living these days. I'll be happy to put him in touch with any number of publishers who would be happy to give him a solid advance on a book deal. All he has to do is name names.
 
Flyer said:
If the shoe fits? The title of most 'untested man in sport' goes to the fruad who proclaims his innocence too often with the meaningless phrase: "most tested".
As the person who is accused most often without a shred of evidence, it would make sense that he would be the one to most proclaim his innocence. The "most tested" claim may be overstated, although I've yet to hear anyone involved in professional cycling refute the claim.

In the meantime, you allege that everyone dopes, but you single out Armstrong for criticism because he has the best doping support system behind him. LOL. Your problem with him has nothing to do with Ferrari; it has to do with the fact that you can't stand stand the guy. The sooner you admit that the sooner you can get back to enjoying the sport for what it is rather than gnashing your teeth about what it is not.
 
Thanks, you have identified yourself as someone with limited understandins of the history of our sport, and no practical knowledge of world class racing.

You have only your dreams and commercial themes to supprt you. Good luck in life.

Shreds of evidence: Hell there are dumpsters of it. Lance even admitted to the insulin and Actovegin on his own website in December 2000, then threaten to boycott the 2001 TDF unless the doping inquiry was stopped, then moved from Nice to Spain.

His doctor is a blood doper specialist.

Your remark re: nobody in professional cycling refuting his claims is especially telling.

You mean like the outrage shown when Frank Vandenbrocke nearly murdered his wife---or was caught for the umptieth time with EPO, hGH, insulin, stimulants, Pot Belge...etc....or blew up his car?

Or the outrage re: Tyler Hamilton, Oscar Camenzind, Santiago Perez?

Or the outrage at World Champion David Millar's lies?

Or the outrage re: Marco Pantani's death at age 34?

Or the outrage that Alex Zulle raced LA in 1999 after being involved with Festina (and admitted on October 2000, 14 months after getting 2nd place in Paris)?

Outrage? Pro cycling is a pharmacy. they do not express outrage EXCEPT at whistleblowers.

Get it!

Please learn about our sport.


rejobako said:
As the person who is accused most often without a shred of evidence, it would make sense that he would be the one to most proclaim his innocence. The "most tested" claim may be overstated, although I've yet to hear anyone involved in professional cycling refute the claim.

In the meantime, you allege that everyone dopes, but you single out Armstrong for criticism because he has the best doping support system behind him. LOL. Your problem with him has nothing to do with Ferrari; it has to do with the fact that you can't stand stand the guy. The sooner you admit that the sooner you can get back to enjoying the sport for what it is rather than gnashing your teeth about what it is not.
 
Flyer said:
And you would be dead wrong.

Whistleblowing books make no money.

You would never buy it, only a few would ---and the US media will not even permit a doping book to be widely published. (it offends the advertisers who sponsor (fund) the doping in the first place)
You obviously have no concept of what sells books in this country. The US media slaver over every such opportunity to bring down a celebrity. "Doping advertisers" play no part in the publishing or marketing of such books. The authors of the "LA Confidential" tell-all both pocketed significant sums in guaranteed cash. You want to tell me that everyone involved in cycling knows everyone is doping, yet they're all making so much money that only one masseuse will come forward and make a quick few hundred grand for spilling her guts to the media? Those schmoe mechanics in the support cars must really be raking it in. LOL.

Once again, your post is nothing but unattributed garbage stated as fact. Put your money where your mouth is, and tell us exactly who knows about the universal doping among cyclists. Simply saying "everyone knows" is the easy way out.

I'm not suggesting no one is doping, or that there isn't a chronic problem among professional cyclists. But I prefer at least some level of attribution with my innuendo. Otherwise, it's just noise.
 
How do you know all this and why all the research ?

Flyer said:
Thanks, you have identified yourself as someone with limited understandins of the history of our sport, and no practical knowledge of world class racing.

You have only your dreams and commercial themes to supprt you. Good luck in life.

Shreds of evidence: Hell there are dumpsters of it. Lance even admitted to the insulin and Actovegin on his own website in December 2000, then threaten to boycott the 2001 TDF unless the doping inquiry was stopped, then moved from Nice to Spain.

His doctor is a blood doper specialist.

Your remark re: nobody in professional cycling refuting his claims is especially telling.

You mean like the outrage shown when Frank Vandenbrocke nearly murdered his wife---or was caught for the umptieth time with EPO, hGH, insulin, stimulants, Pot Belge...etc....or blew up his car?

Or the outrage re: Tyler Hamilton, Oscar Camenzind, Santiago Perez?

Or the outrage at World Champion David Millar's lies?

Or the outrage re: Marco Pantani's death at age 34?

Or the outrage that Alex Zulle raced LA in 1999 after being involved with Festina (and admitted on October 2000, 14 months after getting 2nd place in Paris)?

Outrage? Pro cycling is a pharmacy. they do not express outrage EXCEPT at whistleblowers.

Get it!

Please learn about our sport.
 
Flyer said:
Thanks, you have identified yourself as someone with limited understandins of the history of our sport, and no practical knowledge of world class racing.
I'll admit to the former; the latter I'll take issue with. In the meantime, you long ago identified yourself as a bitter-tongued blowhard who spouts innuendo as fact, and who refuses to address questions directly. I asked you specifically to identify a single person, ANYONE, in the professional cycling world who would refute Armstrong's claim that he's the most tested rider in the peloton.

In response, you went off on some tirade about "outrage" involving other cyclists.

If you can't respond to the question, just say so. There's no reason to go off on some spittle-spraying tangent.
 
Your beliefs are unfounded and not supported by the evidence.

Mine are, and it disturbs you. I don't require a concept to understand business.

btw: You awareness of corporate advertising is even below your cycling doping.

You probably believe that public traded corporations never cheat, bribe officials, harrass competitiors, pollute the environment, and cook their books using corrupt consultants and accountants too.

I hope you are on a trust fund for life support.

The media does not kick its master.

Significant sums for doping stories? Guess again.


rejobako said:
You obviously have no concept of what sells books in this country. The US media slaver over every such opportunity to bring down a celebrity. "Doping advertisers" play no part in the publishing or marketing of such books. The authors of the "LA Confidential" tell-all both pocketed significant sums in guaranteed cash. You want to tell me that everyone involved in cycling knows everyone is doping, yet they're all making so much money that only one masseuse will come forward and make a quick few hundred grand for spilling her guts to the media? Those schmoe mechanics in the support cars must really be raking it in. LOL.

Once again, your post is nothing but unattributed garbage stated as fact. Put your money where your mouth is, and tell us exactly who knows about the universal doping among cyclists. Simply saying "everyone knows" is the easy way out.

I'm not suggesting no one is doping, or that there isn't a chronic problem among professional cyclists. But I prefer at least some level of attribution with my innuendo. Otherwise, it's just noise.
 
Shoot the messenger is the typical reaction to dirty truths.

I have 20 years following professional sport.

It is common knowledge within the community.

It is jealous rumors outside of it.

If you do your own research, you will not shoot yourself---but you may become depressed.

It is best that you guys do your own homework.

Suffice to say you were so advised and dozens of examples, links, articles were posted too.

Many of you never read them---are choose to discredit them, one by one---so as not to consider the sheer volume of it.

This is a funny---but true link, it has Lance Armstrong, Tyler Hamilton and former top US pro Trent Klasna IDed as dopers. Many more too.

Enjoy it, it's a scream.

http://stolenunderground.com

Once you get past that everyone in on illegal drugs, you can help figure out a corporate solution.



whiteboytrash said:
How do you know all this and why all the research ?
 
Is Ulle on thw gear as well ?


Flyer said:
Shoot the messenger is the typical reaction to dirty truths.

I have 20 years following professional sport.

It is common knowledge within the community.

It is jealous rumors outside of it.

If you do your own research, you will not shoot yourself---but you may become depressed.

It is best that you guys do your own homework.

Suffice to say you were so advised and dozens of examples, links, articles were posted too.

Many of you never read them---are choose to discredit them, one by one---so as not to consider the sheer volume of it.

This is a funny---but true link, it has Lance Armstrong, Tyler Hamilton and former top US pro Trent Klasna IDed as dopers. Many more too.

Enjoy it, it's a scream.

http://stolenunderground.com

Once you get past that everyone in on illegal drugs, you can help figure out a corporate solution.
 
Lol, you read those stories...........some are true, but there are also pro's who defended themselves against thos stories of decanio and the commander on forums..........And if you read carefully they say that there are clean pro's!

Or is american racing less dirty........less money youre answer is?


Flyer said:
Shoot the messenger is the typical reaction to dirty truths.

I have 20 years following professional sport.

It is common knowledge within the community.

It is jealous rumors outside of it.

If you do your own research, you will not shoot yourself---but you may become depressed.

It is best that you guys do your own homework.

Suffice to say you were so advised and dozens of examples, links, articles were posted too.

Many of you never read them---are choose to discredit them, one by one---so as not to consider the sheer volume of it.

This is a funny---but true link, it has Lance Armstrong, Tyler Hamilton and former top US pro Trent Klasna IDed as dopers. Many more too.

Enjoy it, it's a scream.

http://stolenunderground.com

Once you get past that everyone in on illegal drugs, you can help figure out a corporate solution.
 
Well that's a little naive.........look at Manzano of Kelme.......if you speak youre out. There are also in other communities wistleblowers....like in corporate businesses they get fired so in cycling it's the same.

And look what happened to manzano getting death threads and stuff...............that's why corporate businesses pay-off people, you get 1 million and shut up (enron, Ahold, etc ).

Btw manzano did get some money from the paper AS, but was not much he said.

It's a never ending story.................cycling, politics, presidents, business people......everyone lies from time to time.




rejobako said:
Forgive me, but that's an awfully convenient excuse for throwing out rumor as fact. "I know a guy who used to race, and he says they're all doping." Tell your buddy to authorize you to give us his name, or tell him to shut up and watch the race.

If your friend is as well-informed as he says, he could earn a lot more money from a tell-all book-deal than he ever will peddling bike frames or whatever he does for a living these days. I'll be happy to put him in touch with any number of publishers who would be happy to give him a solid advance on a book deal. All he has to do is name names.
 
Matt is not suggesting any TDF riders are clean. And you are quite astute re: the direction and concentration of cheating, doping/cheating/corruption follows the money flow.

Anyway, he claims all the top US riders are using--including USA 2001 #1, Trent Klasna, his former Saturn teammate.

We already know local pros juice too.

We even had a few public suspensions with Dave Fuentes and Adham Sbieh.

btw: Dave is lapping the field in Oregon this summer as they are not part of USA Cycling---and thus the 2 year suspension DOES NOT APPLY.

Denying is not the same as defending.

You may be learning.


MJtje said:
Lol, you read those stories...........some are true, but there are also pro's who defended themselves against thos stories of decanio and the commander on forums..........And if you read carefully they say that there are clean pro's!

Or is american racing less dirty........less money youre answer is?
 
Flyer said:
Your beliefs are unfounded and not supported by the evidence.

Mine are, and it disturbs you. I don't require a concept to understand business.

btw: You awareness of corporate advertising is even below your cycling doping.

You probably believe that public traded corporations never cheat, bribe officials, harrass competitiors, pollute the environment, and cook their books using corrupt consultants and accountants too.

I hope you are on a trust fund for life support.

The media does not kick its master.

Significant sums for doping stories? Guess again.
LOL; as I suspected. Still won't name a name, just relying on a litany of obtuse generalizations. Any reasonable person knows corruption and cheating occurs in every venture where money is involved. But only the hopelessly disgruntled generalize these realities to the entire enterprise, solely because they don't care for those who lead the pack. In the meantime, the sport you claim ownership in ("our sport -- how delightfully arrogant of you ;) ) isn't going to get any better with you snidely asserting everyone is doping and then sitting back to watch the carnage. Get out and do something about it. Accusing individuals and then refusing to name your sources is ineffective at best, if not outright cowardly.


Don't look now, but the black helicopters are hovering over your house again. :eek:
 
100% correct!

Integrity, work ethic, great charitable works used as marketing, are what you can get the public to buy into. In the form of commercials.

Real integrity and charity is performed one-on-one and never advertised publicly.




MJtje said:
Well that's a little naive.........look at Manzano of Kelme.......if you speak youre out. There are also in other communities wistleblowers....like in corporate businesses they get fired so in cycling it's the same.

And look what happened to manzano getting death threads and stuff...............that's why corporate businesses pay-off people, you get 1 million and shut up (enron, Ahold, etc ).

Btw manzano did get some money from the paper AS, but was not much he said.

It's a never ending story.................cycling, politics, presidents, business people......everyone lies from time to time.
 
On the contrary, it is highly effective.

Now you are on notice---so when your favorite athlete gets arrested for 'roid rage' or has heart failure, or cancer, or another dread disease, or their doctor is convicted of malpractice, or has two teammates still ill, or yet another busted for blood doping---you won't be at all surprised.

Glad I could help.



rejobako said:
LOL; as I suspected. Still won't name a name, just relying on a litany of obtuse generalizations. Any reasonable person knows corruption and cheating occurs in every venture where money is involved. But only the hopelessly disgruntled generalize these realities to the entire enterprise, solely because they don't care for those who lead the pack. In the meantime, the sport you claim ownership in ("our sport -- how delightfully arrogant of you ;) ) isn't going to get any better with you snidely asserting everyone is doping and then sitting back to watch the carnage. Get out and do something about it. Accusing individuals and then refusing to name your sources is ineffective at best, if not outright cowardly.


Don't look now, but the black helicopters are hovering over your house again. :eek:
 
Flyer said:
On the contrary, it is highly effective.
By your own admission, everyone's still doping. By failing to step forward with tangible proof of what you (or your sources) claim to know, what have you accomplished, other that proving that you have one less testicle than Lance Armstrong?
 

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