Where does Lance rank among the greats?

[DiabloScott]

The more interesting and appropriate question is "who of the 5-timer club would be able to control the race for 3 weeks and play to his own strong suit in the TdF of today?"

Merckx won by just annihilating everybody, he didn't need tactics. His strong suit was that he was a cannibal. That strategy might or might not work today, but he sure did know how to win races.

Hinault was much the same but he did have to out wit the pure climbers at their own game... and he was good at it. He was one of the best peloton bosses I've ever seen. Of course he had to out wit his own team mate as well, he was less successful at that.

Indurain developed the strategy that Armstrong now uses: kick ass in the time trials and minimize losses in the mountains without worrying about road stage wins. In fact he seemed to enjoy letting other people win the mountain top stages. An Indurain vs. Armstrong TdF would be very interesting indeed.

Anquetil - well it seems team tactics weren't as developed in his day as they are now... I think he'd have trouble playing patron against modern teams, but I'm not sure.

I'm also not sure that there will continue to be future 5 and 6 time winners. Lance got away with putting all his (and his team's) eggs in one basket because it's what his sponsors wanted and he knew he had a pretty good shot at winning. I think future riders in that category will be rare... it's just too expensive from a cash flow perspective. And the Tour will continue to be the biggest prize of the season, but by a smaller margin due to the ProTour changes.

Hi Lim!

 

[hcyclist]

I'm Not sure were LA will place when all is said and done.. the only thing i am sure about is that he's better than me.

 

[limerickman]

The more interesting and appropriate question is "who of the 5-timer club would be able to control the race for 3 weeks and play to his own strong suit in the TdF of today?"

Merckx won by just annihilating everybody, he didn't need tactics. His strong suit was that he was a cannibal. That strategy might or might not work today, but he sure did know how to win races.

Hinault was much the same but he did have to out wit the pure climbers at their own game... and he was good at it. He was one of the best peloton bosses I've ever seen. Of course he had to out wit his own team mate as well, he was less successful at that.

Indurain developed the strategy that Armstrong now uses: kick ass in the time trials and minimize losses in the mountains without worrying about road stage wins. In fact he seemed to enjoy letting other people win the mountain top stages. An Indurain vs. Armstrong TdF would be very interesting indeed.

Anquetil - well it seems team tactics weren't as developed in his day as they are now... I think he'd have trouble playing patron against modern teams, but I'm not sure.

I'm also not sure that there will continue to be future 5 and 6 time winners. Lance got away with putting all his (and his team's) eggs in one basket because it's what his sponsors wanted and he knew he had a pretty good shot at winning. I think future riders in that category will be rare... it's just too expensive from a cash flow perspective. And the Tour will continue to be the biggest prize of the season, but by a smaller margin due to the ProTour changes.

Hi Lim!

Cycle Sport January 2005 Magazine : Eddie Merckx tribute makes interesting reading.
I never saw Merckx in competition and I agree with your substantive point about EM but according to CS, EM also had a very strong team around him.
I think that the Motleni team of the EM era, would hold their own in the modern TDF.

Indurain also had a very strong Banesto squad as well (Rue, Jimenez, Mauri,
Delgado), would BigMig beat LA ?
I think it would be tight very tight.

I think Hinault is the weak link (heresy ???).
Hinault was a very strong rider but were his team all that strong ?
I know Guimard was an excellent team boss and Renault (under Fignon were very strong in 1983/84) but Hinaults wins in the earlier part of his career weren't reliant on his team as such.
I think LA would also give BH a very good run for his money.

Anquetil - very impressive rider and his St Raphael team were very very strong.
Anquetil V LA ? USPS V St Raphael ?

It's very intriguing.

 

[Brian Cotgrove]

Cycle Sport January 2005 Magazine : Eddie Merckx tribute makes interesting reading.
I never saw Merckx in competition and I agree with your substantive point about EM but according to CS, EM also had a very strong team around him.
I think that the Motleni team of the EM era, would hold their own in the modern TDF.

Indurain also had a very strong Banesto squad as well (Rue, Jimenez, Mauri,
Delgado), would BigMig beat LA ?
I think it would be tight very tight.

I think Hinault is the weak link (heresy ???).
Hinault was a very strong rider but were his team all that strong ?
I know Guimard was an excellent team boss and Renault (under Fignon were very strong in 1983/84) but Hinaults wins in the earlier part of his career weren't reliant on his team as such.
I think LA would also give BH a very good run for his money.

Anquetil - very impressive rider and his St Raphael team were very very strong.
Anquetil V LA ? USPS V St Raphael ?

It's very intriguing.

G'Day all, I agree with all that is said about Eddie M, Fausto C, Lance A, Big Mig, Jacques A, Bernhard H, Greg L, etc.

However just to throw a cat amongst the pidgeons, what about?

There was a "MAN" who rode like a demon for more years than most, maybe not as impressive as many mentioned but he always gave his best and that is a real tribute to his tenacity, "Raymond Polidor" give him a wrap fella's, he was, I think, almost fifty years old when he last rode "Le Tour", after which he called it quits?

Limerickman may be able to throw some light on the subject, sorry if it's off the track, but worth a try anyway?

Keep turning them wheels, TBC

 

[limerickman]

G'Day all, I agree with all that is said about Eddie M, Fausto C, Lance A, Big Mig, Jacques A, Bernhard H, Greg L, etc.

However just to throw a cat amongst the pidgeons, what about?

There was a "MAN" who rode like a demon for more years than most, maybe not as impressive as many mentioned but he always gave his best and that is a real tribute to his tenacity, "Raymond Polidor" give him a wrap fella's, he was, I think, almost fifty years old when he last rode "Le Tour", after which he called it quits?

Limerickman may be able to throw some light on the subject, sorry if it's off the track, but worth a try anyway?

Keep turning them wheels, TBC

Raymond Poulidor was a very very strong cyclist.
Tough as old boots - unfortunately he cycled at the same time as Anquetil and then Merckx.
I think he was 46 when he retired.
This guy came second in the TDF 6 times - if I recall correctly and also managed to win many stages races.
Poulidor was one of those guys who could climb all day - every day.
Not the best on flatter terrain perhaps but what a climber.

I thonk the case for Coppi can be very compelling - his record may not be as impressive in the number of TDF wins but I reckon that Coppi would be up there against any of them (Coppi was EM cycling hero !).

 

[Brian Cotgrove]

Raymond Poulidor was a very very strong cyclist.
Tough as old boots - unfortunately he cycled at the same time as Anquetil and then Merckx.
I think he was 46 when he retired.
This guy came second in the TDF 6 times - if I recall correctly and also managed to win many stages races.
Poulidor was one of those guys who could climb all day - every day.
Not the best on flatter terrain perhaps but what a climber.

I thonk the case for Coppi can be very compelling - his record may not be as impressive in the number of TDF wins but I reckon that Coppi would be up there against any of them (Coppi was EM cycling hero !).

G'day Limerickman, Mate, I just knew you would come up with the goods, I saw Raymond Polidor on a news reel film courtesy the old "Pathe News" many years ago and was impressed by his talent.

Yes he did ride with some of the greats of cycling, it would also be nice if someone could have made a documentary of his prowess, as they did with battles of "Coppi & Bartalli" which I have in my collection.

Thanks for that, have a good day, TBC

 

[limerickman]

G'day Limerickman, Mate, I just knew you would come up with the goods, I saw Raymond Polidor on a news reel film courtesy the old "Pathe News" many years ago and was impressed by his talent.

Yes he did ride with some of the greats of cycling, it would also be nice if someone could have made a documentary of his prowess, as they did with battles of "Coppi & Bartalli" which I have in my collection.

Thanks for that, have a good day, TBC

Coppi is a very interesting rider.
A superb climber by all accounts and if it wasn't for the war, he would probably have a better record in terms of grand tour wins.
The only real area of weakness in Coppi's palmares is the Northern European Classics, except for 1950 when he won Roubaix and Fleche Wallone.
He used to win the other one dayers like Milan-San Remo though.

Merckx talks of an instance when he got to meet his two boyhood heros : Coppi and Philippe Thyss in 1956.
Coppi was competing in the Brussells Six Day race and Thyss (first man to win the TDF three times between 1912-1921) was the official race starter.
Merckx talks about getting Coppi's autograph at that event and how the autograph still takes pride of place in his collection and how he watched Coppi's smooth cycling style.
Coppi was Merckx all time cycling hero.

 

[meehs]

Coppi was Merckx all time cycling hero.

For me that says it all!

 

[micron]

An interesting comparison to make is overall number of GTs won and doubles accomplished.

Armstrong ranks with Coppi (6), but is behind Indurain (7), Anquetil (8), Hinault (10) and Merckx (11).

Additionally, Coppi, Indurain, Anquetil, Hinault and Indurain can all boast at least one GT double - Indurain, for example, did the Giro-Tour double twice, back to back.

For me, Armstrong's isolated TdF wins don't really compare - though I appreciate none of the others came back from cancer. Lemond used to argue that he couldn't ride a full season after his accident because he simply wasn't strong enough (still managed to ride P-R and the Worlds). Merckx always said that he was never the same rider after his terrible track accident (the durny rider died) - a statement that makes you wonder...

 

[limerickman]

An interesting comparison to make is overall number of GTs won and doubles accomplished.

Armstrong ranks with Coppi (6), but is behind Indurain (7), Anquetil (8), Hinault (10) and Merckx (11).

Additionally, Coppi, Indurain, Anquetil, Hinault and Indurain can all boast at least one GT double - Indurain, for example, did the Giro-Tour double twice, back to back.

For me, Armstrong's isolated TdF wins don't really compare - though I appreciate none of the others came back from cancer. Lemond used to argue that he couldn't ride a full season after his accident because he simply wasn't strong enough (still managed to ride P-R and the Worlds). Merckx always said that he was never the same rider after his terrible track accident (the durny rider died) - a statement that makes you wonder...

For me the list would read : Merckx, Hinault, Indurain and Coppi (equal third),
Anquetil, LeMond, Bobet, Kelly, Rominger, Bartalli.
Then Armstrong.

 

[micron]

For me the list would read : Merckx, Hinault, Indurain and Coppi (equal third),
Anquetil, LeMond, Bobet, Kelly, Rominger, Bartalli.
Then Armstrong.

That's a pretty good list, limerickman - good to see Bobet, Kelly and Rominger in there

 

[limerickman]

That's a pretty good list, limerickman - good to see Bobet, Kelly and Rominger in there

The extent of all their palmares - that's my basis for selection.

Until LA starts winning other races, I wouldn't consider him with the others listed above.

 

[micron]

Also good to see you rate Indurain highly - he is a really underrated rider

 

[limerickman]

Also good to see you rate Indurain highly - he is a really underrated rider

Indurain is my favourite grand tour cyclist : I well remember going to France to see the big man blowing the opposition away.

Alp D'Huez 1995 still burned in to my mind.
Pantani flying up the mountain and Big Mig holding the 1min 20second gap.
I can still see his lungs under his cycling shirt expanding, as he gulped the air to
fuel legs to come in behind Marco.
Awesome performance by Marco - fantastic performance by Big Mig !

 

[micron]

The Luxembourg TT was poetry in motion...

One reason I never like Bruyneel - the way he wheelsucked and then took the win when Indurain attacked on that flat out of the blue.

And he did the Giro/Tour double twice - won Paris-Nice, Tour of Catalunya, Hour record and a gold medal (a couple of things there notably lacking from Armstrong's palmares).

Probably would have won that 6th straight too had it not been for Mr 60%.

 

[limerickman]

The Luxembourg TT was poetry in motion...

One reason I never like Bruyneel - the way he wheelsucked and then took the win when Indurain attacked on that flat out of the blue.

And he did the Giro/Tour double twice - won Paris-Nice, Tour of Catalunya, Hour record and a gold medal (a couple of things there notably lacking from Armstrong's palmares).

Probably would have won that 6th straight too had it not been for Mr 60%.

I think you refer to Bruyneel following BigMig in 1995 TDF in the early stages when he followed BigMig.
In fairness, I think BigMig didn't complain afterward about Bruyneels win.
If I recall, the stage was in Holland.
BigMig decided to take a risk and go for an early stage win.
The fact that he surprised and neutralised his opposition so early, was his main target.

 

[micron]

Indurain being the champion he was, it was clear he didn't begrudge Bruyneel the win - just seems to prefigure things to come at USPS (get a tow, then attack and win) - but I am being slightly facetious...

I remember getting Indurain's autograph when the Tour came to the UK - and being overwhelmingly impressed with his charm, his physique, his manner - he was physically the most extraordinarily impressive looking rider I've ever seen.

 

[limerickman]

Indurain being the champion he was, it was clear he didn't begrudge Bruyneel the win - just seems to prefigure things to come at USPS (get a tow, then attack and win) - but I am being slightly facetious...

I remember getting Indurain's autograph when the Tour came to the UK - and being overwhelmingly impressed with his charm, his physique, his manner - he was physically the most extraordinarily impressive looking rider I've ever seen.

Agreed.
I was lucky enough to see him at the 1995 TDF - in Paris and physically the man
was the most athletic person, I have ever seen.
His height and his frame were perfect for power cycling.

In 1998, when he was here, little had changed.
He was still as imposing but looked super fit (he was retired two years at that stage) but his charm and his easygoing way was a real pleasure.
He was smiling, courteous and he seemed to be geuinely happy to be in Dublin
and to meet fans.
Bontempi and Roche were at the table with us and they were good fun too.
Roche told the story of how he tried to persuade BigMig, each year, to go to Roches training camp to meet the punters there.
Mig and his family used to go to Majorca on holiday and Roche wanted the TDF to make a quick 15 min appearance.
Finally, BigMig agreed - saying "15 mins Stephen - remember I'm on holiday and I don't want to be away from Maria (his wife) and Migeuleon (his young son)"
Roche says great and they agree that the next morning the TDF will appear at 10.00am and be gone by 10.15am.
Roche said he was delighted with himself - all the punters will get to meet the
TDF champion and we they go home and tell people that the TDF champ. turned up, it'll be great for business.

10.00am next morning, BigMig arrives says hello and starts talking.
11.30 am !!!!!!!!! - he's still chatting away with people, having a great time.
The door bursts open and who's there ?
But Mrs Indurain, with child !
BigMig hops up "see ya, Stephen, goodbye everyone" and runs out the door
with Mrs Indurain giving him what for !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well if you'd seen Indurain roaring laughing as Roche told the story in Dublin that night.
Priceless.
BigMig said, in broken english "my wife, she's got a fierce temper".

One more anecdote - Sean Kelly made his way over to the table and Bontempi and Indurain were all smiles, delighted to see Sean.
Kelly pushes his way toward the table - and as you are aware himself and Bontempi had massive clashes in the sprint finishes during the 1980's - starts
fool-acting by elbowing Guido to get a place at the table before him !!!!!!!!!
Indurain and Roche (and Bontempi and Kelly) were roaring laughing.
Sean turns and says, in jest, "he (Bontempi) was always a bollox when it came to a sprint finish" !

That night was great fun - very very memorable.

 

[micron]

Sounds like quite an evening - and quite a line-up!!!

Forgive me for asking, but how'd you get to be lucky bugger at the tabel?

 

[limerickman]

Sounds like quite an evening - and quite a line-up!!!

Forgive me for asking, but how'd you get to be lucky bugger at the tabel?

The company I work for had the exclusive media rights to the Irish stages on the 1998 TDF.

But I am also involved at an organisational level for cycling in Ireland.
(not blowing my own trumpet).
So I was fortunate enough to get a table at "Le Grand Depart" - which is the prelude to each TDF, every year.