Where does power come from?

[Fday]

If every scientist followed up on every quack out there, the real work wouldn't be getting done. Perhaps if you paid them to look into it things would be different.

If you are a scientist I will add you to the list of the non-curious. I would also add to that list any so called "scientist" I had to pay to "look into it" it would make me question this so-called scientists abilities, honesty, openess, and ethics.

Some people follow the data, others try to direct the data.

 

[vadiver]

From the study:

Gross efficiency was determined using the mean respiratory values from the gases collected and the resistance applied during the pretraining and posttraining submaximal rides. The values obtained from the average work performed against the resistance and the energy expended from the RER value were converted into caloric equivlents (kcal-min^-1) using the Weir equation (30), and then multiplied by 100 to yield a percentage value as identified previously.

Since I know you will ask, although I don't expect you to know what it means, RER means respiratory exchange ratio.

You are correct I do not know what RER means. I would assume it has something to do with the ratio of O2 and CO2 while breathing. But since I am not an MD that is only a guess.

From what you posted here, it appears the PCers are just in better shape but not more powerful. You may be able to ride longer before you muscles burn. But if you are not generating the same power it does not really matter.

Assuming the more powerful rider is less efficient. As long as they know their body, they will win. If they do not know their own body they have the potential to blow up, thus the tortis and the hear. But the less efficient rider has that same possibility, just farther back.

Of course I am sure you will tell us how having a higher GE affects cycling.

 

[beerco]

I would also add to that list any so called "scientist" I had to pay to "look into it" it would make me question this so-called scientists abilities, honesty, openess, and ethics.

Every medical device in the U.S. today was proven through clinical trials paid for by the manufacturers. The docs are paid per patient to implant/use the stuff and report their results in peer review journals.

There were two articles just recently in which the results were exactly contrary to what the pay-er was looking for in the journal of bone and joint surgery.

It's the way it's done.

 

[vadiver]

If you are a scientist I will add you to the list of the non-curious. I would also add to that list any so called "scientist" I had to pay to "look into it" it would make me question this so-called scientists abilities, honesty, openess, and ethics.

Some people follow the data, others try to direct the data.

It is called credibility.

Just as you are in the bus. to make cycle products these research firms are in the bus. of doing research.

If they were to "cook" the numbers on the PCs they would soon be out to bus.

Again, look at Enron, Health South, Global Crossing, AA, etc. You will eventually get caught when cheating.

I would put more credibility in a firms results that you paid for than you yourself. The more evaluations this firm did the better. If it were an indipendent evaluator even better.

 

[Fday]

Of course I am sure you will tell us how having a higher GE affects cycling.

Sure, for the exact same effort (calories burned) the rider with the larger GE has more power. I think you said something about what riders with more power tend to do, but I forget.

 

[Fday]

Every medical device in the U.S. today was proven through clinical trials paid for by the manufacturers. The docs are paid per patient to implant/use the stuff and report their results in peer review journals.

There were two articles just recently in which the results were exactly contrary to what the pay-er was looking for in the journal of bone and joint surgery.

It's the way it's done.

I see, "proven" safe and effective like thalidomide and Viox, and the IUD, and . . . the list goes on and on.

And, even if a drug does work and is on the market doesn't mean it gets used properly. Just look at the influence of direct to patient marketing by the drug manufacturers. More people probably taking more expensive drugs they don't need now because some doctors don't know how to say no.

Frank

 

[beerco]

I see, "proven" safe and effective like thalidomide and Viox, and the IUD, and . . . the list goes on and on.

And, even if a drug does work and is on the market doesn't mean it gets used properly. Just look at the influence of direct to patient marketing by the drug manufacturers. More people probably taking more expensive drugs they don't need now because some doctors don't know how to say no.

Frank

Try reading my post. I wrote medical DEVICE. Not drug. But on the topic of drugs: Instead of trying to get out of paying for proof that your toy works and changing the subject, Please name one modern safe and effective drug that has NOT gone through a paid clinical trial to prove that it's safe and effective.

 

[Fday]

Try reading my post. I wrote medical DEVICE. Not drug. But on the topic of drugs: Instead of trying to get out of paying for proof that your toy works and changing the subject, Please name one modern safe and effective drug that has NOT gone through a paid clinical trial to prove that it's safe and effective.

perhaps aspirin.

 

[Fday]

Try reading my post. I wrote medical DEVICE. Not drug. But on the topic of drugs: Instead of trying to get out of paying for proof that your toy works and changing the subject, Please name one modern safe and effective drug that has NOT gone through a paid clinical trial to prove that it's safe and effective.

Let me think a bit, I suspect we can see a similar list for devices.

The average rehab clinic is filled with "devices" that haven't gone through clinical trial, like free weights, exercise bikes, treadmills, massage tables, etc. would PC's, when put on an exercise bike qualify as an exercise bike or medical device, quite a dilemma for the FDA here, I am sure.

Frank

 

[Fday]

Try reading my post. I wrote medical DEVICE. Not drug. But on the topic of drugs: Instead of trying to get out of paying for proof that your toy works and changing the subject, Please name one modern safe and effective drug that has NOT gone through a paid clinical trial to prove that it's safe and effective.

Wait, IUD is a device, isn't it?, and was on my list. But, how about silicone breast implants, or injected silicone for breast augmentation. or . . . ., I am sure the list goes on and on.

 

[Fday]

Try reading my post. I wrote medical DEVICE. Not drug. But on the topic of drugs: Instead of trying to get out of paying for proof that your toy works and changing the subject, Please name one modern safe and effective drug that has NOT gone through a paid clinical trial to prove that it's safe and effective.

aspirin . . . and, morphine, and oxygen and many others I am sure. These may have all had clinical trials done at some time (even oxygen isn't totally safe and can kill and blind, did you know that?) but I am sure they were all grandfathered in when the FDA came into existence.

 

[beerco]

perhaps aspirin.

Read my post again - I said Modern. aspirin has been around from before there were clinical trials. Powercranks have not.

BTW many docs have stated that if it hadn't have been invented until lately, aspirin would certainly be a prescription drug.

 

[beerco]

Wait, IUD is a device, isn't it?, and was on my list. But, how about silicone breast implants, or injected silicone for breast augmentation. or . . . ., I am sure the list goes on and on.

My wife has an IUD which has been proven safe and effective through clinical trials.

Are you trying to say that clinical trials are worthless and should be eliminated?

 

[beerco]

aspirin . . . and, morphine, and oxygen and many others I am sure. These may have all had clinical trials done at some time (even oxygen isn't totally safe and can kill and blind, did you know that?) but I am sure they were all grandfathered in when the FDA came into existence.

Again, MODERN drugs i.e. developed within the last 30 or 40 years, not things like elements.

 

[Fday]

My wife has an IUD which has been proven safe and effective through clinical trials.

Are you trying to say that clinical trials are worthless and should be eliminated?

No, clinical trials are not worthless. But, they do have their limits since they have limited numbers of participants. When the millions start to get involved the "lesser risks" (in number, not necessarily in danger) start to show. No study is perfect. Every drug and device carries a risk, along with a benefit. The FDA simply determines that something has been shown to be somewhat effective in treating something and that the risks are not enormous (even though it is the patient who should be assessing and accepting the risk for themselves, not the FDA for them) but it is up to the doctor and patient to decide if something is right for them.

Not all IUD's since they have been introduces were particularly safe and no IUD is entirely safe. Take a look at the package insert. Also, forgot, the extra large size tampon, that was a good example of something that seemed so "benign" turning deadly.

Frank

 

[Fday]

Again, MODERN drugs i.e. developed within the last 30 or 40 years, not things like elements.

Are aspirin and morphine "elements". Need to upgrade my periodic table.

Modern drugs are never put out without trials because that is the law now. Plenty have been put out and then removed though.

 

[Fday]

Read my post again - I said Modern. aspirin has been around from before there were clinical trials. Powercranks have not.

BTW many docs have stated that if it hadn't have been invented until lately, aspirin would certainly be a prescription drug.

Aspirin probably would not get through the FDA trials and make it to the marketplace, prescription or not. If it were not for Tylenol (acetominophen) there would probably be more deaths from aspirin than any other drug. The reason it is not number one is probably because acetominophen has displaced it. Want to commit suicide, one of the best ways to do it is with Tylenol (although, now with liver transplants, they can treat it so it may not be the killer it once was). There are only two other drugs that probably kill more but the government in its wisdom have declared them to not be drugs, alcohol and nicotine (cigarettes).

Just putting some things in perspective.

Cheers,

Frank

 

[vadiver]

Sure, for the exact same effort (calories burned) the rider with the larger GE has more power. I think you said something about what riders with more power tend to do, but I forget.

That is assuming the person can put forth the same effort.

For example: One rider has a power output of 500W using 1000K per hour. Second rider can only put out 400W but only user 500K. Rider one replenishes with twice as much nurishment as rider two. Rider two is still going to loose.

Now if they each put out 500W, the food bill is cheeper for the second rider but I can buy a lot of gells for $1000.

Do you ever read or think about what you are saying? And I guess GE really had nothing to do with power to the wheels as you said previoiusly. You may want to actually read some of these studies that have been done.

 

[vadiver]

I see, "proven" safe and effective like thalidomide and Viox, and the IUD, and . . . the list goes on and on.

And, even if a drug does work and is on the market doesn't mean it gets used properly. Just look at the influence of direct to patient marketing by the drug manufacturers. More people probably taking more expensive drugs they don't need now because some doctors don't know how to say no.

Frank

The drugs work as expected. There is just a human nature problem. For some reason sane humans think that a drug or device should not harm anyone. When it starts to link to 100 or so deaths, they get pulled.

My mother is still on a Cox2 inhibitor (if that is the correct way to describe it) that will not be prescribe by a doctor to a new paitent. Her doctor has tried to take her off of it a couple of times. She may have found a new drug to substitute for it finally. But until now my mother, myself, and her doc. have all discussed the side effects. My mother decided she would rather take the risk then live with the pain she was in without the drug. So yes, you would probably not be on the drug, but that does not mean the drug is not effective.

Likewise, she when through another drug treatment that has been determined safe. It turns out there were side effects with her other medications. The drug that caused the side effect did its job, it is just the tests are not fail safe. The drug manufacture will hopefully test for these side effects.

The brest implant issue has since been determind to have not caused the problems once thought. Yes they leaked, but now it appears Dow was put out of business by a bunch of lawyers that were wrong.

As for your product, I think it would be safe to say after you had the research completed. Not everyone would see the same results. Some would see more, some would see less. That is to be expected.

However, people would not really care because mostlikly people would not die.

 

[beerco]

Just putting some things in perspective.

So, from your perspective:

Oxygen is not an element.

Asprin and Morphine are modern drugs.

All IUD's are dangerous due to purchased trials.

All modern clinical drug trials lead to dangerous drugs because the researchers are accepting payola.

Thus proving that paying people to study your PCs would be wrong.