Where should I start?

[2LAP]

Originally posted by patch70
These marathon runners do not consider 65 - 75% efforts to be "quick". In the weeks leading up to a race, one specific goal is to reduce body fat which is why they follow this plan in the lead up to a race.

For endurance events where there are few tactics or changes in pace like the marathon (which to break world records or PB's need to be run at the highest constant possible). VO2 max, LT, running economy and oxygen uptake kinetics are perhaps the only important factors in determining success. Low body mass is a componant of VO2max, but again this is a product of high energy expendatures and good diet. Few marathon runners would need to train to loose weight in a run up to an event. Most marathon runners maintain a low body weight all year due to year round training.

 

[patch70]

**i wasn't aware we were talking about people with medical conditions...

We are not but if you have experience in this area, it helps you to understand about carbohydrate metabolism In that situation, supra-normal levels of insulin lead to fat gain. This helps to understand why people with high carbohydrate diets that are not matched by their energy expenditure are more likely to gain fat than someone on a high protein diet that takes in the same number of calories.

**i'm sorry but this is wrong. there's quite a bit of research looking at atkins and the people on atkins do *NOT* loose significantly more than the people on other diets.

Have you read the two articles on the Atkins diet in the New England Journal of Medicine?

Samaha et al. NEJM Vol 348, pp2074-2081, May 22, 2003
and
Foster et al. NEJM Vol 348, pp2082-2090, May 22, 2003.

Sure the high protein, low carb cohort did not lose as much weight as they needed to, but they did lose more than the low calorie cohort and they also ended up with a better lipid profile. They mainly did not lose enough weight because they were not fully adherent to the diet. Early days yet but there is accumulating evidence of the benefits of reducing carbohydrates in diet.

Also, with this type of diet, you will lose weight more quickly early on and so get positive feedback and hence stay motivated.

 

[patch70]

Originally posted by 2LAP

Sorry, I tend to refer to mainstream science.

I refer you also to the articles in the New England Journal of Medicine. You can also find discussions on it in the Journal of the American Medical Association and the British Medical Journal.

I hope these are sufficiently mainstream for you.

 

[FatRoadie]

And to think for a moment there I thought no one was going to reply............

Bruce

 

[patch70]

Originally posted by 2LAP
For endurance events where there are few tactics or changes in pace like the marathon (which to break world records or PB's need to be run at the highest constant possible). VO2 max, LT, running economy and oxygen uptake kinetics are perhaps the only important factors in determining success. Low body mass is a componant of VO2max, but again this is a product of high energy expendatures and good diet. Few marathon runners would need to train to loose weight in a run up to an event. Most marathon runners maintain a low body weight all year due to year round training.

This is getting way off the topic! The fact remains that many elite marathon runners do train with the specific purpose of reducing body fat in the lead up to a big event and they do this by doing prolonged efforts at 65-75% max HR.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by patch70
This is getting way off the topic! The fact remains that many elite marathon runners do train with the specific purpose of reducing body fat in the lead up to a big event and they do this by doing prolonged efforts at 65-75% max HR.

many elite runners loose weight in the lead up to a marathon? are you sure? non that i know. most elite runners loose weight (if they need to) at a sensible time, not in the run up to an event - as this would compromise performance

Ric

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by patch70
Originally posted by 2LAP

I refer you also to the articles in the New England Journal of Medicine. You can also find discussions on it in the Journal of the American Medical Association and the British Medical Journal.

I hope these are sufficiently mainstream for you.

I'll check them out, thanks

There is limited support for low carbohydrate diets, particularly long term. I would also never recomend a 'high' carbohydrate diet, prefering a diet that is 50% of kcals from carbs for non athletic people and 60% of kcals from carbs for athletic people.

I'm not sure that anyone can recomend a high fat/low carbohydrate diet quite yet!

 

[patch70]

Originally posted by ricstern
many elite runners loose weight in the lead up to a marathon? are you sure? non that i know. most elite runners loose weight (if they need to) at a sensible time, not in the run up to an event - as this would compromise performance

Ric

Again, we are getting off the topic. Clearly these guys do not have a lot to lose and they are doing this at a sensible time and not just before the event.

 

[patch70]

Originally posted by 2LAP

>I'm not sure that anyone can recomend a high fat/low carbohydrate diet quite yet!

Sure, the jury is not in yet. I would prefer to call it high protein/low carb rather than high fat as I wouldn't recommend a high fat diet.

For years, I was telling people to go on the low calorie, high carb, low fat type of diets because this is what I was taught at uni by the dietitians & biochemists. Then the high protein thing started and my first reaction was "just another fad". I saw a few people get great results for the first time so I looked into it. That then led me to look into the evidence behind the traditional low calorie diet and there isn't a great deal of evidence to be found. In fact, I think it is fair to say that the whole area of dietary advice is not very evidence-based! It seems it is a bit like that we keep saying high carb/low fat/low calorie is the way because everyone says so. But then a few hundred years ago every scientist "knew" that the earth was flat and to suggest otherwise was absolute stupidity.

One advantage of this high protein/low carb diet is that it is easier. If you tell people all they have to do is burn more calories than they consume, what does that mean to the average joe? Who measures their exact caloric intake? How accurate is that for anyone who does so without a team of cooks/dietitians doing it? Who measures their caloric burning? How accurately? So they just have to wait and see if they lose weight. On the other hand, with the high protein/low carb diet, if done properly, you can say eat as much as you want but just of certain types of foods. And for the average joe, that is very attractive.

I don't do it as I ride a lot and hence I need carbs and I also don't need to lose weight. But I do think it has a place for others.

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by patch70
One advantage of this high protein/low carb diet is that it is easier. If you tell people all they have to do is burn more calories than they consume, what does that mean to the average joe? Who measures their exact caloric intake? How accurate is that for anyone who does so without a team of cooks/dietitians doing it? Who measures their caloric burning? How accurately? So they just have to wait and see if they lose weight. On the other hand, with the high protein/low carb diet, if done properly, you can say eat as much as you want but just of certain types of foods. And for the average joe, that is very attractive.

But how many people know what is in the food they are eating? Just on this site there are people who say carbs are unhealthy and not needed for exercise, yet drink coke during races! Many people on this site use carbohydrate and sugar interchangably, not recognising the spectrum of carbohydrates that exist.

Calorie counting is quite easy to do and there is lots of information about it. It is an effective technque for managing weight.

I agree that telling people 'with the high protein/low carb diet, if done properly, you can say eat as much as you want but just of certain types of foods' will be attractive. However even on this diet weight will only be lost if calorie intake is less than expendature (i.e. an unlimited amount of sausages or steak will not help you lose weight).

Although variations need to be made for different individuals or clinical states, recomending a balanced diet (i.e. not excessivly high in any of the macronutrients) is likely to be the healthiest option particularly in the light of the limited research that you have identified. Unfortunatly, any diet high in protein or carbs or fat have disease states associated with them.