Where's Jan ?

[barnstorm]

The greatest ever TDF rider - in my opinion - is Eddie Merckx.
Just my personal opinion.

It's interesting that we talk about doing the Giro/Tour double as the big accomplishment that the champions of the past gave us. I still find it hard to imagine how Eddy managed to win all three jerseys in the tour. That is something that is truly special and truly dominant in a way that we will probably not see again. For someone to be Erik Zabel, Richard Virenque, and Lance Armstrong all in the same tour (to take the people who have spent the most time recently in the respective jerseys) must have been just amazing to watch. The fear someone with that level of talent must have caused in the peloton must have been amazing. I was alive when Eddy was winning but I certainly wasn't watching. I wish I could get that tour on video. People now talk about Lance as the greatest tour rider and he was definitely dominant in the yellow competition. But he has taken specialty to a place that seems like was unheard of in Eddy's day. Had Eddy just focused on the Tour and Yellow, he might still be winnning them now.

 

[Andrija]

Like it was said here lots of times - cycling changed a lot since Jacques and Eddy...
It's more specialized...
I just can't imagine Green Jersey contender keeping up the pace with climbers, nor I can imagine GT contenders risking injury in some fall in those sprint finishes.

 

[limerickman]

It's interesting that we talk about doing the Giro/Tour double as the big accomplishment that the champions of the past gave us. I still find it hard to imagine how Eddy managed to win all three jerseys in the tour. That is something that is truly special and truly dominant in a way that we will probably not see again. For someone to be Erik Zabel, Richard Virenque, and Lance Armstrong all in the same tour (to take the people who have spent the most time recently in the respective jerseys) must have been just amazing to watch. The fear someone with that level of talent must have caused in the peloton must have been amazing. I was alive when Eddy was winning but I certainly wasn't watching. I wish I could get that tour on video. People now talk about Lance as the greatest tour rider and he was definitely dominant in the yellow competition. But he has taken specialty to a place that seems like was unheard of in Eddy's day. Had Eddy just focused on the Tour and Yellow, he might still be winnning them now.

Not taking anything from Armstrong - his record is up there.

People talk about a rider dominating a race.
For me Eddie Merckx's career within the TDF race alone - blasts every other rider in history to smithereens.

1969 - winning all five jerseys in his debut TDF was simply freakish.
Throw in his winning the points/overall jerey, or the overall jersey/polka dots jerseys, in his subsequent TDF wins and you've got a rider who dominates.

Then access his TDF record in the context of his other wins throughout each of his seasons and it becomes apparent that the Merckx is God.

Given that Merckx was winning one day races, stage races, GT's throughout each season from 1969-1975, he is above everyone else both in terms of the TDF alone and in terms of riders overall palmares.

You raise a good question - what can anyone do racing a guy like that?

When he lost a race it made more news that when he won a race - that's says it all for me.

 

[bobke]

Just as I make a decision about whether a source is reliable or not, you can choose whether or not to believe me. It makes no difference to me what you choose.

Re Riis & Tyler, I did not read that so I am taking your word for it but I would find it very amusing if Mr 60% is criticising people for doping. Or was he really criticising him for getting caught? Or for leaving CSC (& vaguely bagging them when he did for not creating a Tour team for him)?

Aside from all that, do you not at least have suspicions about the way CSC riders are so strong with very few exceptions? Do you wonder how Julich can be great at Cofidis in their dirty days, hopeless at T-Mobile, and then superb at CSC? Do you really think that these super-competitive, type A personalities can only ride well if they feel that their DS cares about them? That they only have a sense of ambition if their coach pushes them?

Well I think you have to take each case on its own.
Bobby J might have been top ten in the Tour but he made top three because half the race went home. He admits himself that that created soooo much pressure on him. He cracked, e.g. crashing in the ITT Metz 1999 when Armstrong was catching people and would have caught him.

If you look at the riders in CSC Julich Voigt Basso etc its like the good boys of cycling. I know it looks bad with Tyler and all but it was when he was on Phonak that things went bad.

We'll never know, but good doctor, what would the magic cocktails be that they could get away with and not have everyone suspiscious...although one could interpret a lot of riders comments after the race as suspcicious given how hard CSC rode...actually rode the race into the ground. No one had anything left at all.


Back to the thread, Jan will come in bottom half in the prologue tomorrow, not as bad as Lance at Psir Nice but close.

 

[barnstorm]

less than 24 hours to go. I can hardly wait. Perhaps a little short for his style but top 10, 20??? I hope he shows us something to hang our hats and posts on.... please.

 

[musette]

JU: "It's not going to be easy because some of the stages of the race are tough but my goal is to get to the finish in Lausanne. I expect to suffer in the mountains but there is nothing I can do about that." Umm, real ambition there, TO FINISH the Tour de Romandie.

JU "I've been able to train hard for two weeks. This has given me a lot of confidence for the future." wooo... training for two whole weeks

 

[wolfix]

Comparing riders of the past the past to todays riders is an interesting topic. Last week I was reading a historical account of the teams Eddy Merckx rode for ...... I will go back and try and find the website I was going through because it was an interesting look at cycling.
One of the things I took from this article was how Discovery[Lance} resembled the winning teams of Merckx's. Both teams were based around the personal ambitions of one rider only.
There was a interview with a rider from that era that made the statement that people forget that not only was Eddy super strong, his teammates were great riders. He has several team mates that could have challenged for the podium if they rode for their own team. However , if you rode for Eddy you gave up all personal ambitions. Any personal glory was a gift bestowed upon you by Eddy.
Since Eddy we have had only 3 "bosses" of the peloton. Hinault, Indurain, and Lance. Lemond/Ullrich never commanded power of the the other riders and they were never feared. Hinault/Indurain/and Armstrong put fear into the other riders.
Armstrong gets attacked today for his aggressive personality during the race, but he is no different then Hinault/Merckx. On or off the bike.

Plus, back in that era Eddy had a smaller pool of riders to challenge him. Cycling had a much smaller base in which to draw riders from ..... For example, he didn't have any Americans or eastern European riders to challenge him. The Americans leMond/Arnmstrong have been a major force in the TDF since LeMonds win. We would have no Vino, Zabel , and others from that part of Europe. And we must mention the Aussies in the sprints. Merckx did not have to deal with them.
Also .....As mentioned before we have specialization. Riders from teams are peaking for certain races . Basso/Ullrich is an excellent example right now. They are being discussed as the TDF challengers, but no one is discussing them as Classic contenders. They have been quiet this year so far. They are specialists. It would be impossible for riders today to ride and win all season long. Which makes Zabel the best cyclist of the past 10 years in my mind. But even Zabel is never discussed as a podium winner of the Grand Tours.
I will argue the most exciting rider of the TDF in our lives was LeMond/Hinault. Take your pick. My reasoning is that a exciting competitor makes for a exciting winner. Lance/Indurain made for boring TDF's. "Win in the TT, and limit your losses the rest of the time," makes for rather predictable racing. To me , the TDF would be far more exciting if the TT's were eliminated. Then we would have the yellow jersey attacking more in the day to day racing. The TDF has become a defensive race.
Merckx's greatest achievment in my mind was his Hour record. Boardman s a great Hour rider, but if I respect the riders who attempt the Hour who have won Classics and Grand Tours. The specialists have taken away the luster of the Hour. I think it was a shortcoming of Hinault/LeMond/ Armstrong/Ullrich not to have attempted the Hour.

 

[doctorSpoc]

...I will argue the most exciting rider of the TDF in our lives was LeMond/Hinault...

Roche - Delgado tour was pretty damn exciting too.. close rivalies make for good tours.. 2003 was a good tour because it was close (LA and JU) and could have gone either way.. the separation really came down to luck in the end.. 1st a rainy day and 2nd pushing the envelope and a fall by JU.. but still an exciting tour. and yes i'd agree with you that the defensive styles make for real yawners as well. any boxing fans out there will know what i'm talking about when i say that LA was the Winky Wright of cycling.

 

[musette]

Speaking of Riis, here is Riis' recent observation on JU's "absolutely catastrophic" form. Not just catastrophic, but absolutely catastrophic. QUOTE]

According to Bild.de: At that same time, Riis said JU is 10 kilos too heavy.

 

[micron]

Would have to challenge the assertion that Merckx's opposition was somehow lesser than Armstrong's - the palmares of the riders Merckx beat are fantastic, unlike those of Armstrong's opposition - a bigger talent pool doesn't necessarily mean stronger....

Would post more supporting evidence but a) it's out there and b) don't have time....but an always fascinating topic

 

[cyclingheroes]

Saw Jan on German TV this morning, he looked good, relaxed and for this time of the year he looked pretty thin. I am not so sure anymore he didn't train for weeks....

 

[wolfix]

Would have to challenge the assertion that Merckx's opposition was somehow lesser than Armstrong's - the palmares of the riders Merckx beat are fantastic, unlike those of Armstrong's opposition - a bigger talent pool doesn't necessarily mean stronger....

Would post more supporting evidence but a) it's out there and b) don't have time....but an always fascinating topic

A bigger pool usually does mean more riders that can win the TDF. For example..If the US did not send riders over to Europe the entire TDF podium would have been altered many times. The US riders has won half of the last 20 TDF's. So , in retrospect we can assume as far as the US goes, it is a TDF cycling power. Merckx did not have to face that.
As far as the palamres of the riders Merckx faced, they are strong because of the point I made about each team having a dominant rider. If Merckx was riding today, he would win , but not nearly as often as he did then.
And , if you know the history of the TDF , you will know that in Merckx's time not all countries in Europe sent riders to win the TDF. Italy did not send riders to France very often. Italy did not consider the TDF as important as the Giro. And the Italians felt cheated by the French and visa versa. Look at Merckx's conviction of doping in the Giro . He claimed it was the Italians setting him up. If Merckx did not ride a Italian bike and did not have Campagnolo backing him he would have not been recieved in Italy very well.
The sport has gone more international today.
Matter of fact, during Merckx's time Felice Gimondi was the only Italian to stand on the podium of the TDF. Italians who were considered great cyclists did not participate in the TDF. So Merckx did compete against lesser rivals at times in the TDF.
So if Merckx only had to compete against just a few countries riders, how does that make for a strong pool? Especially now that we see the countries that were dominating the TDF then not competing today ???? Example.... .France, Belgium, Holland , Sweden ..... The only consistent country is Spain.
The riders in the Tour today are faced with more challengers then in Merckx's time. Palmares were easier to build then .....

 

[cyclingheroes]

A bigger pool usually does mean more riders that can win the TDF. For example..If the US did not send riders over to Europe the entire TDF podium would have been altered many times. The US riders has won half of the last 20 TDF's. So , in retrospect we can assume as far as the US goes, it is a TDF cycling power. Merckx did not have to face that.
As far as the palamres of the riders Merckx faced, they are strong because of the point I made about each team having a dominant rider. If Merckx was riding today, he would win , but not nearly as often as he did then.
And , if you know the history of the TDF , you will know that in Merckx's time not all countries in Europe sent riders to win the TDF. Italy did not send riders to France very often. Italy did not consider the TDF as important as the Giro. And the Italians felt cheated by the French and visa versa. Look at Merckx's conviction of doping in the Giro . He claimed it was the Italians setting him up. If Merckx did not ride a Italian bike and did not have Campagnolo backing him he would have not been recieved in Italy very well.
The sport has gone more international today.
Matter of fact, during Merckx's time Felice Gimondi was the only Italian to stand on the podium of the TDF. Italians who were considered great cyclists did not participate in the TDF. So Merckx did compete against lesser rivals at times in the TDF.
So if Merckx only had to compete against just a few countries riders, how does that make for a strong pool? Especially now that we see the countries that were dominating the TDF then not competing today ???? Example.... .France, Belgium, Holland , Sweden ..... The only consistent country is Spain.
The riders in the Tour today are faced with more challengers then in Merckx's time. Palmares were easier to build then .....

Agree, BUT most Italians still peak at the Giro (Savoldelli, Simoni, Garzelli...)

 

[wolfix]

Yes ..... But this year we are talking of a an Italian winning.[Basso] Or we are talking about a German winning .... [Jan]... We do not really talk of anyone from the traditional cycling countries winning the TDF this year. That would have been laughed at in Merckx's time.
And back in Merckx's day if you were not Belgian, you did not win , place or show at the spring classics...... This year we have only one Belgian on the podium at Paris-Roubaix and we have an Italian. At LBL and F-W we just had a Spainard win and the LBL has not had a Belgian winner since 1999.
The sport is far more diverse. And maybe more exciting for all the diverse fans.

 

[limerickman]

Yes ..... But this year we are talking of a an Italian winning.[Basso] Or we are talking about a German winning .... [Jan]... We do not really talk of anyone from the traditional cycling countries winning the TDF this year. That would have been laughed at in Merckx's time.
And back in Merckx's day if you were not Belgian, you did not win , place or show at the spring classics...... This year we have only one Belgian on the podium at Paris-Roubaix and we have an Italian. At LBL and F-W we just had a Spainard win and the LBL has not had a Belgian winner since 1999.
The sport is far more diverse. And maybe more exciting for all the diverse fans.

In relation to Merckx : if you look at his opponents : Gimondi, Poulidor,Zootemelk, VanImpe, Knetemann, Ocana : those guys can hold their own in any company.
I take the point about the sport being more diverse today but racing back then was hard.
Cyclists had to race in order to earn money - that's not the case today.

In relative terms LeMond/Hinault era was tough too : you had Kelly/Roche/Fignon/Delgado/Anderson/Hampsten/Millar/Criquillion competing.

Move it on to the Indurain era, there is no let up in the opposition Zulle/Jalabert/Riis/Bugno/Chiappuci/Pantani/Berzen/Rominger.

This era doesn't contain as many talented riders as the Merckx/Hinault/LeMond/Indurain era.

It was Hinault who said two years ago that if Merckx had followed Armstrong's programme - that Merckx would have won 20 T'sDF.

For me Merckx record is unbeatable.

 

[jhuskey]

Saw Jan on German TV this morning, he looked good, relaxed and for this time of the year he looked pretty thin. I am not so sure anymore he didn't train for weeks....

Three weeks with little training, but he comments that he is well pleased with how quickly he has come back into form.
However if he does not show well in the Romandie race his detractors will cruicify him and I am told he will be conservative at this point.

 

[limerickman]

Three weeks with little training, but he comments that he is well pleased with how quickly he has come back into form.
However if he does not show well in the Romandie race his detractors will cruicify him and I am told he will be conservative at this point.

Ullrich just needs to get the miles in at this point of the season.
We've seen the shot of the T-Mobile site - he's not overweight in those shots.

The fact that he has decided to take part in the ToR and he stated his intention to do the Giro, is positive on two counts.

On the first count, in previous years his riding at this time of the year consisted of training in Switzerland with T Steinhauser.
Riding in competition - even if he's not going for overall GC at Romandie - is far better preparation.

On the second count, Ullrich's choice of Romandie indicates that his knee has
healed.
If your knee is anyway dodgy - Romandie is the last place you should be cycling in terms of climbs/mountains.
If he can complete Romandie and then complete the Giro : it will be game on.

Great to see Der Kaiser back!!!!!!!

 

[barnstorm]

Ullrich just needs to get the miles in at this point of the season.
We've seen the shot of the T-Mobile site - he's not overweight in those shots.

The fact that he has decided to take part in the ToR and he stated his intention to do the Giro, is positive on two counts.

On the first count, in previous years his riding at this time of the year consisted of training in Switzerland with T Steinhauser.
Riding in competition - even if he's not going for overall GC at Romandie - is far better preparation.

On the second count, Ullrich's choice of Romandie indicates that his knee has
healed.
If your knee is anyway dodgy - Romandie is the last place you should be cycling in terms of climbs/mountains.
If he can complete Romandie and then complete the Giro : it will be game on.

Great to see Der Kaiser back!!!!!!!

Lim, thanks for getting us back on topic. Jan starts his season in a couple of hours and that is all we should be focused on. I thought this was the Jan Ullrich fan club site? Merxx who? I agree with you, if he can finish Romandie Giro without crashes or injury, he will have all the fitness he needs to win the tour.

Cyclingheroes's point that maybe has has actually been training and the whole knee thing was a smokescreen echoes something I said a while ago. That would be some serious tactics. If he shows form early on, the rivals get put on notice and start gunning for him. His best post 97 tour was 2003 where nobody expected anything, remember that. We always pick on him and his team for not being smart at racing and the mind games but this is perfect strategy IF that is what it is. Get the rivals to write him off and keep running around Spain, France, and Belgium winning spring races, go ahead and ride all out in the Giro because Jan won't be a rival in the tour anyway. Good tactics really.... IF IF IF

 

[rejobako]

The greatest ever TDF rider - in my opinion - is Eddie Merckx.
Just my personal opinion.

And you can certainly make that argument in the context of a man who approached every stage, every day in a yellow jersey, and every climb as a separate goal. One wonders how many TdFs the Cannibal could have won had he decided to ride more conservatively on a daily basis and to make the GC a larger priority.

On the other hand, what made Merckx great was his furious passion for winning everything. Putting limits on that kind of ambition might well have affected his overall psyche. Armstrong is a different kind of personality, much more shrewd and calculating. He set his sights on the TdF GC as his raison d'etre, and that alone became his motivation. Both men were wildly successful, and as I said, you can make a case that Merckx, because of his 5 wins, multicolored jersey titles, and his stage win / days-in-yellow records, is the "greatest TdF rider in history". And certainly you can give him some deference because of the strange incident which likely cost him a 6th title.

But from another perspective, the TdF GC is the ultimate accomplishment in the greatest race. Stage wins, etc., may accent the achievement, but they do not rise to the same level. When people debate the merits of the great riders of the event, the first criterion is always the GC. That is not the only criterion, certainly, which is, I think, your point to begin with. But from my viewpoint, it's tough to argue that the greatest rider in a particular event is not the only man who won it seven (or even six) times, consecutively.

I think it's also fair to say that, in the event itself, he may be the luckiest ******* ever to have competed. Sure, he's had his mishaps with shopping bags and German fans spitting into his face, but for some reason every time he was placed in a precarious situation he managed to escape without a broken collarbone or femur. When Beloki went down in front of him on that descent, it was on one of the few stretches of winding road where Armstrong had a field to ride through rather than a cliff to dive off of. They say a man makes his own luck. In Armstrong's case, I think it's a bit of both.

 

[limerickman]

And you can certainly make that argument in the context of a man who approached every stage, every day in a yellow jersey, and every climb as a separate goal. One wonders how many TdFs the Cannibal could have won had he decided to ride more conservatively on a daily basis and to make the GC a larger priority.

On the other hand, what made Merckx great was his furious passion for winning everything. Putting limits on that kind of ambition might well have affected his overall psyche. Armstrong is a different kind of personality, much more shrewd and calculating. He set his sights on the TdF GC as his raison d'etre, and that alone became his motivation. Both men were wildly successful, and as I said, you can make a case that Merckx, because of his 5 wins, multicolored jersey titles, and his stage win / days-in-yellow records, is the "greatest TdF rider in history". And certainly you can give him some deference because of the strange incident which likely cost him a 6th title.

But from another perspective, the TdF GC is the ultimate accomplishment in the greatest race. Stage wins, etc., may accent the achievement, but they do not rise to the same level. When people debate the merits of the great riders of the event, the first criterion is always the GC. That is not the only criterion, certainly, which is, I think, your point to begin with. But from my viewpoint, it's tough to argue that the greatest rider in a particular event is not the only man who won it seven (or even six) times, consecutively.

I think it's also fair to say that, in the event itself, he may be the luckiest ******* ever to have competed. Sure, he's had his mishaps with shopping bags and German fans spitting into his face, but for some reason every time he was placed in a precarious situation he managed to escape without a broken collarbone or femur. When Beloki went down in front of him on that descent, it was on one of the few stretches of winding road where Armstrong had a field to ride through rather than a cliff to dive off of. They say a man makes his own luck. In Armstrong's case, I think it's a bit of both.

For sure Merckx went out with one objective - to win at all times.
Today, Armstrong and Ullrich compete not necessarily to win each race that they enter.

In the context of the TDF, Merckx raced the TDF 7 times and won it 5 times.

Merckx won 35 stages and held the yellow jersey for 90 days.
Throw in the fact that he won a combination of classement jerseys during his five wins (and held classement jerseys simultaneously), his record is phenomenal.

I hear the case that you're making for Armstrong. It's a worthy case.
7 wins from 11 starts is nothing to be sniffed at.